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FPSC Classic Product Chat / The need for a serious "Work for hire" thread

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Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 13:47
With the increasing capabilities of FPSC X9 and X10 more and more developers have the need for custom game content. While TGC Store and the various model packs are great they can’t really deliver on the very special needs you often run into when making a new game.

At the moment it is difficult to find a good artist to handle custom content for you since you really don’t have a clue to who is willing to do the work or who is in your price range.

I therefore suggest that we create a thread here that allows any artist (graphics, audio, cut scenes etc.) who is willing to do work for hire (for money that is) to make a post about themselves, their capabilities and show some of their work, link to contact info and define a typical price range.

Contact should be handled through e-mail or at least not on this forum so that the thread can stay clean. Any postings that are not from an artist-for-hire should be removed by a mod.

I know that my own project would benefit from this and I am probably not the only designer here who would gladly pay for custom content.
KeithC
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 15:41
It's a good idea; I'll see what I can do. The same could be said about scripters as well as music and sound FX. I may be able to do something for each category...

-Keith

KeithC
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 15:52
Actually; if any serious artists that have actual work or a good protfolio under their belt, want to give me some input in putting this together...it would be appreciated.

-Keith

djmaster
User Banned
Posted: 26th Feb 2009 16:30
cant wait for tgc store point gifts so you can send them your model once they give you points

A.K.A. djmaster
The Next
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 16:39 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 16:54
A thread along those lines would be great.

I'm getting more and more into modelling now i can animate and UV map texture im also working on a portfolio at the moment but will be a while until its all setup i would help but i dont have much to show at this time still building up a good selection of artwork.

Shaun Of The Dead
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 17:46
yeah, that would be great, im getting my texturing and 2d work up something like this would be great, it reminde me of the model request thread


Shaun (The Dead Kind)
xplosys
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 18:11
I'm not yet to the point of offering services, but I do have a thought on the subject if I may. Yes, it does sound good in theory, but I have to wonder about application.

If the forum advertises - or allows to be advertised - work for hire, what is their obligation (implied or otherwise) with the work or transaction? Are they willing to handle disputes, or are they staying out of it completely? If there is a problem, how do you handle it and what impact will this have on the forum or TGC? Are you willing to say "Buyer beware!", let anyone offer their services, and take no responsibility for the advertising/promotion of the vendor.

I can't help but see a very large can of worms here.

I'm having a little trouble being politically correct and relaying my thoughts here, so bear with me. The TGC store works well because people see a defined product. TGC is responsible for all of the vendors and handles any issues. What you are proposing is that either: people pay for something sight-unseen or the vendor create something that the buyer may refuse, or in rare cases never intends to buy. Stir well, sprinkle in underage participants, and set over a medium flame for 15 minutes.

It seems that this was brought up before, though I don't know how far it was taken. My memory is not what it used to be, but I thought it was decided that - anyone who wishes to promote his or her services could do so in their signatures. I could be thinking of something else altogether.

I too would like to see a pool of resources like this, but I'm not sure that it would work here. Hopefully, someone else has a great suggestion.

Best.

KeithC
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 18:17
The difference between the TGC Store, and what was suggested here, is an artist that can be called upon for custom work...that is not available to everyone.

There would have to be a disclaimer somewhere stating that TGC is not liable for any incompetence or neglect on the artist's part...nor would it be responsible to punish those who do not pay for the work given (in the form of a ban for example). It would merely be a database of pre-defined information blocks.

Though it may be a good idea to approach Rick or Lee with it first; after things are hashed out a bit.

-Keith

Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 08:58 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 15:58
xplosys: your point is good and it does happen that someone is running a scam and trying to get money out of people who think they've ordered a model. (edit: this could also happen for artists with developers who will trick them to work and then never pay)

My suggestion is to place a small sample order first and see if everything works out well. If you like the quality/price/speed of delivery then you can continue your cooperation.

For examples on how an artist could present his/her stuff see:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=15839

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=14957
James Kravenwolf
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 09:19
This is a really good idea...I would like to participate as a 3D modeler if this becomes official.

-Kravenwolf
Marc Steene
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 10:14
Quote: "someone is running a scam and trying to get money out of people who think they've ordered a model. (edit: this could also happen for artists with people who will trick them to work and then never pay)"


There could be a few ways to combat these issues. If a modeler for hire does a few jobs, s/he could be labeled a certified/approved modeler to let others know a few succesful jobs have been completed.

The people paying for models could place a deposit to TGC (Somewhere around $30-$50) which is returned to them when the purchase is complete. If they are unhappy with the model they could send a complaint to TGC with the reasons why, and if they are valid, the deposit is returned.

Just a few ideas here, it will be intresting to see what happens.

Migration Discussion Thread: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
Piracy Discussion Thread:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142774&b=21
bond1
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 10:56
It's a great idea for a board, but I think for it to be reputable, it would need to have some sort of rule that it is for adults only, both parties would need to 18 or over, and able to pay and receive money. Polycount has a similar board for this type of thing, and there are strict rules to keep out the garbage.

The first time someone presents themselves as a professional, then says, "Sorry my mom grounded me from the computer", then the whole thing just becomes a joke that no one can take seriously.

----------------------------------------
"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 12:57 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 14:37
marc steene: the idea about the "certified" tag is interesting but let's see what TGC wants with this. I am not a supporter of a deposit system though since it would probably be slow and unflexible. People should be able to do deals independently.

bond1's point is also true. We can't really have people below 18 doing this. I know this will disappoint a lot of users here but doing business with money involved is for adults.

It could be interesting if there could be agreed on a standard payment method (Paypal etc.) so that wouldn't be an issue on every deal.
KeithC
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 13:29
Having TGC involved in any kind of monetary capacity more than likely wouldn't fly. So the deposit is out.

Tagging, or "vetting" an artist may be doable. We may be able to start with artists who contribute to the official packs (Bond, Jon, Simon, Jake, etc.); I think using those few might be a good way to start and hash a few things out along the way, before adding others (including those who infrequently contribute to their TGC Store accounts).

I think keeping it 18+ is a good thing; though what's a good way of proving that (I'm sure Bond and the others signed a contract stating such...)?

Standard payment method would be good; but there would have to be an alternate method for those who don't trust or use Paypal.

The thread itself would be locked (much like the FPSC Tools thread), to keep out unneeded posting. There may be a need for a thread to post any problems/issues with artists.

Anyways; keep the ideas coming and I'll put something together to send of to Rick and Lee, in the coming days.

-Keith

Errant AI
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 13:52 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 13:54
My $1.05...

Most forum members have an email button on their posts/profile. If someone of any age wants to provide services, I don't believe there is anything stopping them from advertising that fact in their sig. Likewise, I'd think there is no rule against developers needing work to do the same. If someone is serious about hiring out work, they can take a couple minutes to contact someone who they might be interested in working with. Keep in mind, developers can be just as flaky as providers. So, would there also be vetting for developers seeking work? See where I'm going with this? It just seems a bit of a slippery slope. Why not just bring back the team request board? I wasn't around when that was here but I'm sure there would be similar pitfalls involved.

Really, the only options I can see would be to have two stickied, highly-moderated threads. One for seeking work and one for offering work. Both would need to have some huge/bold disclaimer releasing TGC from any responsibility/liability in disputes, endorsement, etc. They would merely serve as a centralized directories to help willing parties find each other. Moderators already have enough to do. I'm sure they'd rather not need to be resolution dispute cops as well.
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 15:07
Errant AI: I agree on the fact that developers can be just as flaky as providers but I disagree with your post in several ways.

I think we need the list because it simply isn't sensible for developers to go through the loads of threads here and contacting everyone you think can help. It’s time consuming and that sort of random inquiries through mail would be unprofessional. We need some form of formalised way of doing this.

A team request board usually attracts loads of freebies and wannabies with a need for attention. We need something where we can contact serious artists about content.
Personally I am not looking for a team anyway since I prefer working on my own. I still have a need for some custom content from time to time though and an organised list would be my first place to look for a suited provider.
bond1
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 15:36 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 15:37
Quote: "I think we need the list because it simply isn't sensible for developers to go through the loads of threads here and contacting everyone you think can help"


I agree with that too. Also the thing about the FPSC boards is that there is such a wide age group of users that it can be a little awkward at times, often you don't know exactly if you're talking with someone in your age group, or someone half your age. It can make for some very strained conversations.


I remember when I joined in 2005, before moderators, and started asking questions. And I got all these juvenile responses, which was really off-putting for a new member like I was. Until I slowly came to the realisation that I was probably twice the age of the average member. Without trying to be snotty - I think it would be good to have a strictly moderated "for hire" board where people can be reasonably assured they are dealing with adults.

----------------------------------------
"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
wizard of id
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 16:50
This is a good idea however there are a few things to consider taking on a project like this.



Like we said TGC has no involvement with this and has to be strictly run by users

Mods have their own lives to worry about and doesn’t need the extra work load.

Splitting up each section is even more work to control this will surely lead to this privilege being revoked


This is my recommendation

Sigs adverting should be strictly prohibited both for services and wanted.
The following threads should be opened and controlled as such

“Services forum”not thread should be opened for both DB and FPS forum users.
Rules for this forum should be as such. (only fair DB member get the same services as well)

1.Members can post a services wanted ad for example “Wanted Texture Artist”

2.No reply’s should be allowed in other words the thread should automatically lock
and be deleted after 30 days

3.Contact should be made via email only a Private Messaging System on the forum would have helped as well? Maybe the forum could use an upgrade it’s been awhile??

4.Each Member that one wants to offer services has to be on a pre-approved list
where members can email a mod with a request to be added to the list once his or hers work has been shown to that mod.

5.A locked thread can be opened titled “Services offered member list” each member can then request the mod to post his skills in this thread with contact details. For example:

Member: Wizardofid
Segment Creation
Texture Mapping
Level Design
Point Rating : 10
Services Paid and Free
Link to off site Art best showcasing him self
(A Single Jpeg showcasing work)
Contact :Wizardofid@.........

You will see that there is a point rating system that means that each task that he/she completes that the end user is happy with the member gets a 1 point. This method will weed out any scammers or under performing members this will stop any complaints as well as preserving this service. Minus points results in member being removed from the list if serious offences occur he/she should be banned like scammers.

You will also see that the member could also offer his services free not every wants money some really do want experience however no points should be allocated for free services

6. Members may not take up more than two wanted ads this should be updated on the members list to reflect this will result in every one being picked more fairly.

7.The person offering services has to pay a 50% deposit non-refundable to allocate an paypal account or other approved system (not every one can use a paypal account)
Members can direct any complaint to an allocated mod for any complaints regarding
Non-payment or bad services. The mod can then decide which party is guilty and the deposit refunded or paid in full for services offered.

8. There should be a flat rate for a model or level or music ect that is fair to both parties involved.

9.At no point may services offered and completed, may any users sell that model music texture ect for profit to another user. There should be some exceptions for custom tools ect. No designer or end user may sell any work for that service that has been paid for in the TGC store with the exception for free services which only designer may sell for profit should he choose to do so. Nor may any designer give completed paid for art away for free.


10. Any designer completing his or hers work should burn media onto a CD and ship it to the end user at the end users cost or to any secure locations pre approved by mods where the file has password protection. I would prefer cd less chance of piracy.



There is more that I could be added to this, this is only the general idea around this service. We have to take into account that we are going to have to pull out all the stops to protect both TGC image and its end users if TGC is going to approve this service. Keith a have baked proposal isn’t going to cut it we have to have a proper proposal that explains step for step how its users are planning to go about this service. We are going to need an extra mod or two if this service takes off like I think it will.

I think that making a service like this might negatively affect the TGC store and there should be some thing in it for TGC around the same lines TGC offers now.

It’s only fair to TGC and the likelihood of some thing like this getting approved.

I hope I wasn’t to strict in my ideas but that is the only way I see to stop flaming scamming spamming ect.

Pointless Assault video
http://w13.easy-share.com/1408971.html
The Next
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 16:58
I think what the TGC forums really need is one forum board that is maybe called "Request Board" that allows users to post requests and then a designer can reply or something this woudl be good for not only media but for teams and so on.

Of course this would need to come with some very strict rules.

But only an idea i think on thread wont work personally imagine how big it will get and how many threads there will be all over the forums if it is locked by people asking questions about it needs to all be in one place.

Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 00:02
The way I see it we practically already have a request forum if you know how to ask in a proper manner and show that your project is real enough. Most requests get banned simply because they are made before any game is even started to be made.

What there is a need for is a list of users who are willing to do work for hire - this does not exist at the moment. We don't need heavy control, fixed price, rating systems or deposit systems to get this system up and running. I believe that a bureaucratic system will kill the idea in a matter of days. We need the list to have basic rules and guidelines but not turn it into a police state.
BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 00:29 Edited at: 28th Feb 2009 00:31
I think the basis of this is a good idea, but I disagree with a few points here.

I think a simple thread would suffice, we dont need a whole board... I also think that any board we did create would be filled with "PLZ PLZ PLZ I NEED TEH MODELS BUT I CANT PAY!" threads.

If it was regulated like keith has kept the BOTB thread, as well as the Tool list that he has running, it would be fine.

Again, that is more work, but id be willing to take personal care of it if other mods believe it to be to much of a work load.

What i propose is this, one of us mods creates a thread, and posts very strict rules. You can post what you offer, your projected price range, a link to some prior work, and how to contact you...THATS IT... any other post would be deleted. i think that would work fairly well, and all transactions would be handled OUTSIDE of this board, TGC and/or the mods cannot be held responisble for non-paying bidders, or shady content creators.

http://www.fpsc.seqoiagames.com
xplosys
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 00:39
Quote: "TGC and/or the mods cannot be held responsible for non-paying bidders, or shady content creators."


This was my only concern with this thing. If TGC is willing to allow people to offer their services and say "we're not responsible for them" then that's their decision.

Perhaps the thread could have a template for submitting the info by email, and only the MOD would post in it. (Locked Thread) Then you would only have to clean up the occasional complaint thread, or "I'm trying to reach so-and-so" thread on another board.

Best.

=Acid=
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 01:14 Edited at: 28th Feb 2009 01:15
Well, there's some nailed down responses here. Wizard made some good ideas and thoughts.


Quote: ""PLZ PLZ PLZ I NEED TEH MODELS BUT I CANT PAY!" threads."

There will definitely be People like this. So I agree that there should not be a board.

I personally think that there should be a tgc Page where people or groups can Post a thread for their wanted person that says for example:

Paid Freelance/Contract work

or maybe a page that you can actually select who you want to hire. In catagories for example:

Game Artist
Programmer
2D artist
etc

Then Once clicked on one of the categories, you could probably choose to sort the highest rated or most viewed profile.

On this page it should have
User Details Experience in what field:environment or character.Including a small thumbnail of their best chosen work.
Then once clicking on the profile to see more details, Given information of email,site/portfolio, experience with games or mods eg: Crysis: lead character artist. Or Battlefield mod environment artist or whatever.

I think there should be a page profile dedicated to the user and they can showcase a few screenshots of their field of experience. As well as contact details and so forth.

To have prevention of begginers they should at least have 6 or so months of experience and also the approval of mods that they are good enough to have a portfolio. So we don't have people saying that they are nubs but can model and texture or whatever, but are really bad.
KeithC
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 04:22
Quote: "Perhaps the thread could have a template for submitting the info by email, and only the MOD would post in it."

That's exactly how I would do it; much like the FPSC Tools thread...

wizard of id
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 07:30
Quote: "I believe that a bureaucratic system will kill the idea in a matter of days. We need the list to have basic rules and guidelines but not turn it into a police state."


Trust me on this websites starts with simple rules and have ended up with a state police force.

Sadly it has to be governed like that because some FPSC users have proven and still behave like 4 year olds.......

Flat rate is better
Two people are the best at what they do one person charges market related prices the other one undercharges who is going to get all the work is that fair?

It won't kill.

Pointless Assault video
http://w13.easy-share.com/1408971.html
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 09:08 Edited at: 28th Feb 2009 09:09
I agree 100% with BULLSHOCK 2's suggestion.

wizard of id: I would never accept doing custom content orders on flat rate terms. I can't believe that most artist would prefer this method either.
Errant AI
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 09:54 Edited at: 28th Feb 2009 09:55
Quote: "I agree 100% with BULLSHOCK 2's suggestion.

wizard of id: I would never accept doing custom content orders on flat rate terms. I can't believe that most artist would prefer this method either. "


x2. Bullshock2's suggestion is along the lines of what I was thinking in the 2nd part of my post.

I also agree flat-rate pricing would be a poor route to go. There is far too much of a skill range for that to work. If designers want to offer flat-rates for services or developers want to offer flat-rates for their needs, that should be up to them and not some sort of rule.

Likewise, if the developer requires assets on CD, etc. that should be up to them as well. I don't see any reason why there should be arbitrary limits on how many ads a designer can pursue, etc. It should be the developers prerogative on who they agree to work with and not some first-come-first-serve sort of thing.
KeithC
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 15:50
Whether you deliver your product on a disk, or via e-mail; is entirely up to the artist, along with the rates they wish to use. This will simply be a list of artists for hire (semi-professional is my goal). We/I will not dictate how much you should charge, how the product is delivered, timelines, etc. That is entirely up to you and the needs of your customers.

-Keith

KeithC
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 18:47
I've been given the "go-ahead" by Rick and Lee, to do this. I need some further input from not only the community, but the actual artists as well. I'll be starting things off with TGC Pack artists (not a general call to artists that have things in the TGC Store). They have to want to be part of this though.

-Keith

Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 18:50
Sounds great!

I do hope that a bunch of the artists on this site will be interested in this. In time I hope that new artists might find the concept interesting too and "sign up".
Cyborg ART
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 18:57
Sounds great!

I know that you wont create a board for it, but I just wanted to show that over at indiegamer.com it works quite well:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

KeithC
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 19:00
Not going for a Board; it will be modeled after the "FPSC Tools" thread that I created. A locked thread filled purely with contact info, with examples of work...etc.

-Keith

Jingle Fett
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 19:13 Edited at: 3rd Mar 2009 19:26
My idea:
I'd say to make two formal no-nonsense boards, one for the artists and one for the developers...both would have to follow a specific format, otherwise they get kicked out/locked
For example:

Artist Name:
Media I can do:
Specialization (what I'm best at):
Speed:
Rates/Compensation wanted:
Full-time or freelance:
Preferred Compensation method:

and

Developer/Company name:
Game being developed/website:
Media needed:
Deadline(?):
Rates/Compensation offered:
Full-time or freelance needed?:
Preferred Compensation Method:

In each board, the dev/artist creates a topic that contains only that info. Anyone interested can either email the artist/dev or post if email is not available. Everything's strictly business.
In their post, artists could maybe post pictures of media they've made and post links to freebies they've made. Devs could do the same with pictures of their game and provide links to previous games/demos/videos.

Something that'd be a nice little extra would be a rating system so that both artists and devs could be rated by other users, like a star system (along with a little explanation by each user who does the review to keep out spam). Kind of like ebay...

No matter how it's done, I'd probably sign up either way...

Edit: a few new posts seem to have creeped up on me while i was writing that..

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KeithC
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 19:41 Edited at: 3rd Mar 2009 19:41
There would only be a thread; a new Board would not be made. There would be pretty strict criteria for being listed. Again, there would be a select few that would be invited to be added to the list...then we'll see where it goes.

Any and all transactions between artist and customer would be handled off the forums; therefore there wouldn't be a thread for customers/artists to interact with. TGC would have NOTHING to do with the transactions. There would also be a criteria in which an Artist could be removed from the list.

I'd like to stress that not everyone can be part of this list; it would be in effect an invitation only, in that either I contact you...or you contact me via e-mail. More to follow....

-Keith

Kurotatsu
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 20:00 Edited at: 4th Mar 2009 04:46
Most prof. artists in other circles myself included usually have a portfolio site to send prospective clients to. I would recomend anybody considering this course invest in a couple books at their nearest Barnes and Noble.

Here's a couple I use. They cover copyright law and have predrawn legal contracts for your personal use, as well as reference and resources for outlets for specific art.

"Legal guide for the visual artist."

"Artist's & Graphic Designer's Market"

Edit: Well I say let's get this ball rolling.

I am most interested in work for hire opportunities personally. I hope a thread of this nature is in the future.

"Perception is my reality." Kuro.
KeithC
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2009 23:23
Artists listed would definately need to have a "home" somewhere, in order to show their wares/reels.

-Keith

The Aaron
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Location: American High School
Posted: 5th Mar 2009 08:53 Edited at: 5th Mar 2009 09:01
My idea of the ideal situation would be to have the client email the artist, then the client pays the money that he and the artist agreed on to a temporary place with a moderator, and once the work is finished the artist will either post a few screen shots or a video if it is animated. if the client is not pleased with the media the moderator will decide what the artist would get from the client for the time that they spent or, things that aren't liked are put on a different online store. this would not protect against corrupt artists but mainly against corrupt clients who would have to pay either way. Oh Yea... the artists would have to be hand picked.
It would also be great if TGC offered each artist a profile page showing work that they have compleated, contact info ect. it could be for instance "artists.thegamecreators.com/artists/Bond1/"
And just so everyone knows, i wouldn't mind being an artist if this thing ever works out.

~Aaron

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KeithC
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Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posted: 5th Mar 2009 14:05
Quote: "My idea of the ideal situation would be to have the client email the artist, then the client pays the money..."

That part of your sentence is what we're going for (after services are rendered, of course).

The manner in which the media is shown (whether in stages, or as a final result), are entirely up to the agreement that the artist and client compose. Again, neither TGC nor the Moderators of TGC are responsible or liable for any part of the transaction. This will be made clear when the final thread is made available to the public.

The profile thing is something that Steve has bounced off of us, and I agree with. It something that would take time, and probably be limited to artists who've created TGC Packs (for now). Till then, the artist could do the same thing on their own Site/Forum.

For a very select group, I have a space for them on my site (we've talked about it previously), to fulfill the requirement of having a "home".

At any rate, some good ideas there. And again, we'll be started with a select few (assuming they agree to be listed), till things get hashed out...then possibly opening things up to newer artists.

One thing is firm though, you have to be at least 18 years old to be listed. I know it seems unfair, but we're talking about entering into legalities, etc. Anyone entering into the list under false pretenses, will be removed immediately.

-Keith

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