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Geek Culture / Visual Studio 11 Express will not support desktop development

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 26th May 2012 18:20
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I just read this horrible news.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/

Microsoft is now FORCING hobbyists/indie developers to either develop nothing but Metro/web apps, or to pay $500 for the Professional Edition for the added benefit of developing desktop applications.

I fear this also means XNA will be dead. Without a free version of C# Express 11 that supports desktop development, a person will have to stick with Visual Studio 2010 and XNA 4.0... but that will only last so long. It looks like Microsoft is trying to eradicate the desktop as we know it.

I hate this. This doesn't make any sense and it really limits us developers.

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Red Eye
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Posted: 26th May 2012 18:28 Edited at: 26th May 2012 18:29
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Horrible news!

...but then there is the GCC Compiler.

Cheers,

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Dar13
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Posted: 26th May 2012 19:26
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Quote: "but then there is the GCC Compiler."

And Clang.

I just hope that the 2011 Visual C++ compiler is compatible with Visual Studio 2010. That way we can use more C++11 goodies.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 26th May 2012 19:40
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While there are still other C++ compilers, it still doesn't make this any less sucky. Like I said, XNA looks like it'll be dead soon (there has been NO news whatsoever on whether MS are going to update it soon or not), and if you want to develop applications in C# for the desktop you're plum out of luck.

As a result of this I've started this hashtag on Twitter: #ihatewindows8

Feel free to use it if you hate it as well.

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Indicium
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Posted: 26th May 2012 19:42
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What's new in C++11?

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Dar13
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Posted: 26th May 2012 19:59
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Details here. For me the one I like the most is the new std::unique_ptr smart pointer and the new 'auto' keyword that turns this:


into this:

which is really nice when you have a vector that's setup like "std::vector<std::unique_ptr<someClass>> _someVector;"

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MrValentine
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Posted: 26th May 2012 20:56 Edited at: 26th May 2012 21:15
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so this just affects XNA C# what about C++ desktop development?

and I have been saying this for ages on the forum but nobody listened...

EDIT

When will my plugin be made!!!
IIIII

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Dar13
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Posted: 26th May 2012 21:27
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Quote: "so this just affects XNA C# what about C++ desktop development?"

Visual Studio 2011 Express Edition will only allow Metro-style apps to be created. To create desktop applications, you will need to buy the Professional edition to create desktop applications.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 26th May 2012 21:41
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I suppose it would depend what power using VS11 would bring that would justify the cost... but $500 is a bit hefty... but Metro style apps, I think thats just the widgets or what?

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 26th May 2012 23:20 Edited at: 26th May 2012 23:21
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Metro is the full-screen, flat-colored tile interface that really doesn't have any business on a desktop computer. It's super clunky and rather gimmicky. And now MS are telling us that we can only develop apps for that interface, unless we want to spend $500+ to develop for the "Classic Desktop" interface.

I think I'm going to become a heavy Linux use in the future if MS doesn't fix these horrible mistakes in Windows 9 (or whatever the heck they'll call it).

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 27th May 2012 00:52
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This sums it up perfectly:

Quote: "Charging developers for Visual Studio is, in effect, making developers pay money for the privilege of making Windows worth buying. And yet, without third-party software, Windows itself has next to no value; it doesn't seem right to make programmers pay just to be able to make Microsoft's operating system valuable."


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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 27th May 2012 01:23
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Ah, I knew there would be some hate for windows 8 soon. Man, Microsoft seems to just be deviating from everything that kept them alive.

If you don't attract developers, what software will you have?


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Indicium
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Posted: 27th May 2012 03:40
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Quote: " new 'auto' keyword that turns this"


I already use that, you sure it's a new feature?

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Dar13
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Posted: 27th May 2012 05:15
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Quote: "I already use that, you sure it's a new feature?"

It's one of the few C++11 things that's in Visual C++ 10.0. VC++ 11.0 has a bunch more though.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 27th May 2012 05:51
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Quote: "Microsoft seems to just be deviating from everything that kept them alive.

If you don't attract developers, what software will you have?"


I know, right?! I have no idea what they're thinking, other than they might gain some extra income just for making the desktop impossible to develop for.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 27th May 2012 23:39
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Hmm, well I just read some interesting articles and maybe this won't be such a horrible thing after all.

This one details what is and isn't dead in Windows 8: http://blog.arsanth.com/index.php/2011/09/15/what-is-and-isnt-dead-in-windows-8/

I like his info on XNA specifically, as it points out that it most likely isn't dead; the technology for it is probably just changing what with the new Metro.NET framework and new Xbox coming out. Also Silverlight is being updated with some functionality from XNA. So, it looks as though it will be just fine, they just have to do a major update to include the new frameworks. Maybe the next version of XNA will support full-screen Metro games, and hopefully there'd be a legacy edition to support standard desktop modes.

Regardless of what they do, it's still really unnerving not to hear a single thing on XNA right now... but perhaps Microsoft are just more concerned with getting their new frameworks working as best as possible before making any official statement?

I'm thinking about reinstalling the Consumer Preview and trying out the new paradigm. Or maybe I'll wait until the Release Preview.

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Jeku
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Posted: 28th May 2012 01:04
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It wasn't that long ago that there was no such thing as a free version of Visual Studio, so this doesn't really come as a big surprise to me anyway. Back in the day we had to pay $200-600 for Visual Studio, and I really can't fault Microsoft for limiting the free version in the future. How can we complain about something that was essentially free in the past?


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th May 2012 01:21 Edited at: 28th May 2012 01:21
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I'm sure we'd just end up using the free alternatives, though I suspect 2010 will still be functional and I suspect it'll still work for Windows 8. As much as I wouldn't want to use MonoDevelop for my C# stuff (as I prefer VC++), but I'd say it's decent & functional enough without having to pay money and it does decent enough of a job (with bonus of Mac & Linux compatibility)

But I can't say that I'm not disappointed by this news, the express version certainly appealed to me as a hobbyist.

Still, I got the full versions of Microsoft Office 2007 & 2010 for £50...not each, for both of them and legally too. So I can't speak too badly of Microsoft, I mean it doesn't cost them nothing to make this software and occassionally they do appeal to people who aren't going to throw money at them. It also works nicely as a marketing strategy as well, honestly, I don't think I want to go back to Open Office. And I don't want to go back to Visual Studio's free alternatives, so there's a good chance I'll pay them money in the future. Also, with Unity3D, I might end up buying the Pro version in the future, because I love the product and want the missing features, yet, it's still functional without them. Same applies to Dark Basic Pro Free & FPSC Free, each have their limitations.

I guess it means I can use decent quality products without breaking the bank and they are likely to get future customers when the bank is a little more durable. I suspect, how many features MS gave away with VS wasn't giving them enough return. I don't think I'd have any reason to upgrade my copy of 2010 Express, sure it'd mean it'd integrate with Unity3D more smoothly (in that I can just double click on a script in Unity3D and it loads in Visual C# straight away), but it still works fine when you load the solution manually. So not anything I'd consider *worth* the upgrade to VS Pro.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 28th May 2012 02:25 Edited at: 28th May 2012 02:28
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I don't really see a problem here. The only problem is people's understanding of what Windows 8 actually is.

Windows 8 isn't for desktop users. I wouldn't install it on my desktop, and you shouldn't install it on your desktop. We are at an awkward phase at the moment where the notion of a desktop user and a tablet user are two separate things. (Microsoft is the first company to make a move on this, and in 5 years time you'll realise how clever it was, this is why there is a lot of hate for W8 at the moment)

Windows 8 combines the tablet experience with a personal computer. Essentially its all the good bits of an iPad coupled with all the good bits of a desktop computer.
When you are carrying the device around, you use the metro interface and when you dock the device onto a keyboard, you use the Windows 7 interface.

So really, what's the problem? You can develop your metro apps for free, or develop a desktop version for free using the old visual studio (As windows 8 is backwards compatible).
Essentially all you are paying for is the privilege to have an app with a combined Metro/Desktop mode (I assume). And if you have an app worthy of that, then a $500 investment won't really be that big of a deal.

Its like Seppuku brought up Unity. There are a lot of core features missing from the Indi version of Unity (like shadows), and some might say that's a bit of a pain in the butt. However, you probably wouldn't use the Indi version of Unity to publish your games, nor would you immediately go out and buy the pro version.

You use the free tools they give you to create a polished application, then purchase the license/tool in order to get your product ready for launch.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 28th May 2012 02:46
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Quote: "When you are carrying the device around, you use the metro interface and when you dock the device onto a keyboard, you use the Windows 7 interface."
That seems like it would be a nice feature! Will it do that automatically?
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 28th May 2012 05:08
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Quote: "It wasn't that long ago that there was no such thing as a free version of Visual Studio, so this doesn't really come as a big surprise to me anyway. Back in the day we had to pay $200-600 for Visual Studio, and I really can't fault Microsoft for limiting the free version in the future. How can we complain about something that was essentially free in the past?"


Excellent point. It's just surprising to me because right when I was getting interested in programming (late '07), Microsoft had the Express editions of Visual Studio, so like a noob, I just assumed that had always been the case.

@BiggAdd:

Many, many MANY good points!

An article in a PC magazine I read (I think PC World) stated that back in 1995, people were just as unwilling to change to the Start Menu as people are now with shifting to the Metro interface.

"But DOS is still the way to go!" shouted someone living in 1990. "Why should I change to a "gooey" interface? It'll never catch on!"

Essentially, that is what's happening 17 years later; another shift in the design element and everyone is up in arms again. Granted they probably should have phased the Start Button out a little smoother, but still...

And I can confirm that right now, Visual Studio 2010 Express works just as well (if not better) on Win 8 as it did on Win 7. So XNA shall live for now!

I reinstalled the Consumer Preview. I'm having much better luck with it now that companies have had time to update drivers for it, so things actually work as expected. Minecraft works beautifully.

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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 28th May 2012 08:08
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I'm right about in the right position now to change the focus of my studies to OS building. Perhaps I shall see if it will be possible to create an OS (more like a hack job) that would basically borrow the best components of all the windows OS and translate commands and information between them.

mmmm, that'd be nice, lots of free software that wouldn't have compatibility issues. Maybe it wouldn't be efficient, but, hey, computers are fast.


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Nateholio
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Posted: 28th May 2012 10:26
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Sounds reminiscent of the BS Apple tried to pull back in the day and all but drowned, partially because of it.

Too bad there's only two real choices, Windows or Apple. Well, more like 1.5 choices.

@DeadTom
That's been done to some extent, I can't remember what the OS was called though.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 28th May 2012 12:21 Edited at: 28th May 2012 12:22
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Quote: "That seems like it would be a nice feature! Will it do that automatically? "


I hope so. Essentially the idea is that you have 1 OS which adapts itself to your input method.
I hope that when you dock a tablet you have to option to make it switch to the desktop mode, as that would be cool.

I won't be getting Windows 8 I don't think, as all it is is a combination between Windows 7 and Windows Phone. I'll have to wait until Windows 9 and 10 until they've made enough advancements to the desktop side to make me want to upgrade.


Quote: "
Essentially, that is what's happening 17 years later; another shift in the design element and everyone is up in arms again. Granted they probably should have phased the Start Button out a little smoother, but still..."


True. Granted Microsoft are the ones pioneering the next step in Computer OS, but they are making a bit of a mess of it. I think the biggest mess they are making it not properly informing people what Windows 8 is and their vision for the future of personal computing, which is where a lot of the hate stems from I think.


At the moment we all consider our devices as separate computers, I think its really exciting to see what Microsoft are trying to achieve by bringing all the devices together into 1 computing experience, although they aren't quite there yet.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 28th May 2012 12:27 Edited at: 28th May 2012 12:29
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Quote: "An article in a PC magazine I read (I think PC World) stated that back in 1995, people were just as unwilling to change to the Start Menu as people are now with shifting to the Metro interface. "


When XP came out people were crazy mad about the start menu. Turns out, it's way better than the windows 98 one. Just like Windows 7 is way better than XP, and, having used Windows 8, is way better than Windows 7.

Windows ME and Windows Vista weren't popular not because of the interface, but because they were just crap. Windows 8, as long as it performs well, will surely have a good UI just as Windows has always had.

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Jeku
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Posted: 29th May 2012 23:11
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@BiggAdd
Quote: "Windows 8 isn't for desktop users."


Care to explain why? The desktop is still there on Windows 8. I know I'll be upgrading because I like to play around with new toys


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Rampage
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 08:48
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I was sad at first when I saw this. And I am totally against the decision.
...But thanks to Microsoft Dreamspark, any student or educator currently enrolled in a semi-well-known University/College is eligible for a FREE copy of the professional edition.

All the more reason to go get a degree

Regards,

Max
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MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 08:51
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Quote: "All the more reason to go get a degree "


$500~ vs $30,000? SeRiOuSlY?



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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 10:20
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Quote: "$500~ vs $30,000? SeRiOuSlY?"


What?



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MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 10:23 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2012 10:29
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Quote: "But thanks to Microsoft Dreamspark, any student or educator currently enrolled in a semi-well-known University/College is eligible for a FREE copy of the professional edition. "


that...

EDIT

Mind you you still HAVE to pay about $99 when your 3 year term or something ends or you terminate the programme...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 12:25
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Essentially I think the Dr is saying that getting Visual Studio for free shouldn't influence you getting a degree because it's a difference of paying $500 and $30,000. As degrees aren't cheap.

If you want a degree for the job you're looking to get, then that's a good enough reason on its own. I don't think anybody would be foolish enough to go, "I want to get that degree because I get free goodies".

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Rampage
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Posted: 4th Jun 2012 05:07
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Well you are going to want to look at getting a degree in Computer Science or whatever if you are looking to be a professional programmer anyway.

All I am saying is you get a lot of freebies along the way that make stuff easier.

Regards,

Max
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 4th Jun 2012 05:09
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Didn't even consider that my going to school next year could earn me this for free. Except the course I'll be taking focuses on Java. Which honestly the more I play with Java the more I wish all of us were forced to learn it. It's amazingly simplistic for being an OOP language.

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Rampage
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I'm pretty sure most stage 1 university/college courses focuses on Java...
But come stage 3 it's pretty much C++ as you go into a lot of OpenGL/Graphics stuff.
Second year (stage 2) focuses a lot on just C. But some papers continue Java.

But yes, I'm already a registered DreamSpark member It's quite good

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Max
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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 05:15 Edited at: 5th Jun 2012 05:16
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BIZSPARK

AND

WEBSITESPARK

You can keep your DREAMSPARK

Nuff Said, but as I said before there is a small fee at the end of like 3 years or when you leave the program...

EDIT

I in bold!

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Airslide
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 05:15
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Funny, one of the local community colleges here requires a whole bunch of prerequisites before taking the (very basic) Java class, yet lets you hop right into C++. I'll pretend they know what they're doing.
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MrValentine
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Quote: "Funny, one of the local community colleges here requires a whole bunch of prerequisites before taking the (very basic) Java class, yet lets you hop right into C++. I'll pretend they know what they're doing. "


Quite ordinary...

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Rampage
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 05:34
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@Airslide, yes, that is indeed strange.

@MrValentine, no. Not too ordinary.
Also those two websites are completely irrelevant, and having nothing to do with the conversation of education. Microsoft spark programs offer resources etc. for eligible individuals.
DreamSpark is merely for students/educators.
I didn't mention in anyway, shape or form, about other MS Spark programs. Although they do exist and are rather good

All I am saying, that if you are in University, which if your soul position in life is to be a Computer Scientist/programmer, you will be eventually anyway, then a lot of resources are offered to you for free.

$500 vs. $30,000 isn't really a relevant statement as you are most likely going to go to University sometime in your life anyway.



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Max
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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 05:38
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Quote: "you are most likely going to go to University sometime in your life anyway."


if I can be bothered...

Quote: "Also those two websites are completely irrelevant,"


no they are not... they are other means to get the software fre for a couple of years... [sort of free anyway - I think the fee was if you exit the program early only hmm]

Quite Ordinary I mean most colleges employ staff who do not know much about the field, and I know you can not argue with that >.< because it is true lol my last college course tutor knew all there was about Cisco CCNA 4.1 but jack all about computers in general...

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Rampage
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Quote: "Quite Ordinary I mean most colleges employ staff who do not know much about the field, and I know you can not argue with that >.< because it is true lol my last college course tutor knew all there was about Cisco CCNA 4.1 but jack all about computers in general..."

I agree with this statement. When I see a professor opening up Internet Explorer and using QuickTime to play a video I have a mini spaz attack.

Regards,

Max
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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 05:51
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Quote: "When I see a professor opening up Internet Explorer and using QuickTime to play a video I have a mini spaz attack."


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I JUST CHOKED ON MY PEPSI >.< you better come here quick and clean my keyboard lol

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Airslide
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 05:56
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I use Internet Explorer
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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 06:02
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[I do too, but Quicktime lol]

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 07:49
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Maybe the professor/teacher was required to use QuickTime? Or it's all he could find before presenting whatever during that particular class. Sometimes, even the crappy software will do the job fine.

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Rampage
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 10:42
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They aren't required haha.
You sorta have to be there to realize the trauma experienced.

Regards,

Max
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bitJericho
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 11:35
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@valentine. There's no fee for dreamspark. What fee are you referring to?

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MrValentine
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I remember reading it a couple of years back that if you exit the programme sooner than 3 years theres some sort of exit fee... maybe to continue using the licences... I dunno...

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 13:46 Edited at: 5th Jun 2012 13:57
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Quote: "Care to explain why? The desktop is still there on Windows 8. I know I'll be upgrading because I like to play around with new toys"


Granted it can be used as a desktop, but I should have said that its not really for Windows 7 users, as Windows 8 is a slightly tweaked version of Windows 7 with the metro interface.

Eventually, we'll all upgrade to Windows 9,10,11 etc, but only when we see the value to do so.
At the moment I already own Windows 7, but I don't own a tablet/touch screen monitor. So the upgrade to W8 just wouldn't be worth it for me.

(I'm talking about mass market here, I can see the value for a developer or a techie who wants to play around with a new system, but for people who don't own a touch screen device and already own W7, I don't see many upgrades)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 23:34 Edited at: 6th Jun 2012 00:20
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Why anyone would use Microsoft Visual Studio is beyond me. Its the worse bloatware I've come across. IDE's should be light weight and fast.

The only useful tool in there is static code analysis which you only get free for the consoles on there. You only get this on PC with Pro which sucks.

Microsoft will never give you anything decent in their free versions of anything. Stay away.

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WLGfx
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Posted: 6th Jun 2012 00:34
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I'm still on Visual Studio 2008 Express and recently compiled a small test program using IrrLicht which came out as a massive 12 Kilobytes. Maybe 2Kb was code and 10Kb was bloatware. Doubt it though as even DBP add's dll's to its exe where-as DGDK1 links libs statically, meaning a 4Mb DBPro exe would only be about 600Kb using DGDK1. So, which of the three is more bloated?

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
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