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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 16:47
A new version of Dark Physics is being prepared that will expose some missing commands such as "phy get collision normal x" etc. While working on this I will also be looking into "phy make cloth from object".

While working on this update it might be a good time to change a few other areas. If anyone has any ideas then please say so as soon as possible. I'm especially interested to know what your thoughts are on issues such as collision. It looks like the current method of obtaining collision data is not the most popular so how would you like to see this be handled.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 17:34 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 17:34
Collision feedback should be handled like it is in Sparky's DLL v2. It is a great system, very solid. Plus, Paul works for you guys

And, the Cloth and Particles system should be more like the original system. The new system is worthless for me, the original system is great and I use it.

Cloth is especially an issue, because you don't have control over the resolution. I use a rather big scale in my game, my characters are about 60 units tall. The biggest piece of cloth I can seem to make is about the size of a handkerchief.


Come see the WIP!
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 17:37
I am not too familiar with Sparky's DLL and Paul is not around at the moment so I don't have the chance to talk to him about it. Can you provide me with any details so I can perhaps get Dark Physics to work in a similar way?
JerBil
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 17:58
I may have missed something, but it seems to me that while the character controller
can react to static bodies, there is no collision data returned
when a collision occurs with the controller and a static body.
Would be nice to have.

Ad Astra Per Asper
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 19:52 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 19:53
Quick example of the updated "phy make cloth from object" command:



This is using the command on a sphere object.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 20:39 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 20:41
are you gonna make it possible for character controllers to push rigid bodies now? Like,it shouldn't be to hard to do,cuz I had seen some examples with irrlicht and physx,and the dude did it in like one class(I think it was the callback class for the character controller or something around there...). But if you guys do that,you'll make me VERY happy

Edit - Oh yeah,and if you were to update the help file,I'd be very appreciative as well

Hello
Oolite
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 22:19
I have seen a few people complaining about the suspension in the car system, how it doesn't react how it should, i also don't like this, it doesn't feel very real, i have also seen no solution to it,so forgive me if it is possible to make the suspension dynamic and i have just overlooked it.

Other than that, i'm quite happy with.

With the "phy make cloth from object" command will it be able to rip and could we change the stiffness of the cloth object too?

Cheers

Agent Dink
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 23:22
I know static collision objects are just that, static. However, I noticed that in order to use static objects, the models must be saved with the offsets built in. This isn't very good if you want to build your level in parts. I'd like to be able to make for example, a universal hut, dock, rock, tree model, etc. and I would like to be able to place these objects and convert them to static meshes in the new position. With the current system I don't think you can do this with the tests I have tried. Would it be possible to make some new parameters to set the initial placement of static objects?

I attempted to make a dynamic mesh and turn it into a kinematic model, but that was a no-go as well, since the phy make object dynamic mesh command is bugged with some models.

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Chenak
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 00:07
Mass is completely broken, if you set mass to a cube it does not react properly, if a cube falls on its edge for example it will stay on that edge. Also the rate of the object falling and its reactions against other objects seems to be all the same, maybe a flag could be added to set an object to react with mass + gravity?

Commands to limit joint rotations by particular angles would be good too unless they are already there.

Character controllers I think need an overhaul. The new commands that are supposed to beable to easily move the controller around are majorly over complicated. Move up, left, right and down should be added, as well as a position controller command. The displacement commands I believe are more trouble than they are worth
Agent Dink
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 00:16
Quote: "Character controllers I think need an overhaul. The new commands that are supposed to beable to easily move the controller around are majorly over complicated. Move up, left, right and down should be added, as well as a position controller command. The displacement commands I believe are more trouble than they are worth"


Indeed. I second everything he said. If character controllers were meant to be easy, you failed miserably I think they need to be as closely modeled around normal character controlling with normal DBP commands as much as possible. If we had the manual control that would be awesome. Of course having special commands, like jumping/jetpack etc. would be nice as well. But more control is definitely needed someday for viable use of the character controller. I struggled for a few days to implement jumping, but even then it doesn't work properly, when I can add normal DBP command controls and get realistic jumping in about 10 minutes.

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Hoozer
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 01:57 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 02:00
@ Mike: I'm very happy that I haven't to remember you about a DP-Update this time!

I would suggest you may also have a look at the old EULA-thread, because a lot of things (we would like to see beeing fixed) were mentioned there aswell!:

EULA-Thread-Link:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=92726&b=30


Some things I dare to ask, because you call it an "Upgrade" (This are only things to add, if you have time left to try to put them into DP):

- Fluids in "software"-mode! (Should be possible with the new SDK 2.7, although it might not be very fast! I would like this feature, cause I would love to play around with it! In C++ the mesh-generation is too complicated for me to handle it "optically" nice!)
- The "softbody"-effects would be nice, because when it's used for "tires" or some other objects it would look/feel really cool!
- "Deforming Objects"-effect is also a feature that would be nice to use together with a car-model in a car-sim!
- The "Metal-bending"/"Metal-Cloth"-effects would be also usefull for a car-sim etc.!


We all hope you make the DP-Product better than it is actually, because it has so much potential left unused right now!

Good luck with it!

Hoozer

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dononeton
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 03:52
People say DP dont use the hardware very well.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 04:04 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 04:12
Like Chenak said, mass is broken. I experienced this problem in my Dark Physics compo trying to increase the mass of the storage connexes. They just act poorly and stand on their edges.

I don't even use character controllers now because they are so bad. I use Sparky's collision DLL + Dark Physics with kinematic boxes in order to create my own character controllers. They work great, they have proper sliding collision and I can position them anywhere, and they displace other physics bodies.

I've attached an archive of the Sparky's help files for version 2. I suggest taking a look at some of the examples. It is an extraordinary plugin, extremely accurate and fast. I purchased Nuclear Glory Collision, but I've found Sparky's DLL to be far superior in every situation. I use it exclusively.

http://forumfiles.thegamecreators.com/?i=1141065


Some of the main things that it allows you to do is test collisions of an object with other individual objects, with groups, or with all other objects. There is no collision queue to cycle through. Dark Physics definitely needs collision groups because it is not always necessary to test collisions against every object.


Come see the WIP!

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HowDo
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 06:57 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 07:08
if this has not been done before now.

do we have a delete cloth now? as I think we could make one but not remove it when finished with.

edit
Might be possible an option to make an object hollow so item can be put into them .

eg. A sphere drop into a cylinder or through it.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
Miguel Melo
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 11:14
Mike, any chance a future DP update will include support for the GDK? Pretty please, with sugar on top, and a little cherry...

I have vague plans for World Domination
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 12:18
Collision groups are already in Dark Physics. Check out the Rigid Body\Groups demo to see this in action. The main commands used are "phy set rigid body group" and "phy set group collision". Do you want to see anything extra added to this?

As for returning information about collisions - how about something like this:



Basically you can now test for collision between two specific objects ( no longer having to rely on the collision queue ). You can then find out how much information is available using the count function. For example, say you drop a cube onto a box then there is likely to be 4 points of contact. You can then proceed to extract the information for each contact point. What does everyone think to this?

I would like to see an example of the problem with mass. Can someone please set something up so I can see what is going wrong.
FINN MAN
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 12:57
Can you make it so that we can ray cast animating objects, right now I have to use Sparky's dll.

Mike Johnson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 13:41 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 13:42
Here is a very simple example showing some of the new collision commands in action. The program creates a sphere and when the space key is pressed this sphere will get pushed up and over to the right. Whenever it hits the ground a small sphere will be placed there to indicate the contact.



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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 14:43 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 14:43
Here is a screenshot showing a grid of size 50 x 50 with 20 x 20 subdivisions. This model was exported as an X file and a cloth object was built from it. You can now see how much larger cloth sizes are possible.

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 14:45 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 14:46
In this screenshot we see a grid of size 100 x 100 with 50 x 50 subdivisions.

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 14:49 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 14:50
Here's another screenshot. This time it shows a sphere model which has been used for the cloth object. A cube is dropped onto it. Turns out to be very effective.

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Hoozer
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 15:16
That looks really promissing to me!

If you can also make some more improvements to the DP-Particle-System (for more info have a look at the old EULA-Thread), it would be a real good "Upgrade"!


Hoozer

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DP-Sw-Mode-Comp-Entry (updated to V. 1.3):
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=93582&b=5
BatVink
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 16:44
The cloth looks very good - making a flat cloth from your own model should have many uses - you could optimise the bits that don't need to do much (for example, the part of a tablecloth that is lying on the table).

Quote: "As for returning information about collisions - how about something like this"

Looks good. It would also be good if it worked like the rest of DBP - you can use an object value of 0 for object B, and it returns the object it collided with.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 17:18
BatVink, I made the change you suggested. You can now pass in 0 for object B.
Hoozer
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 17:51
@ Mike: Can you tell me, if the CCD (Continious-Collision-Detection) will be available for other objects than boxes? (As far as I remember CCD only worked together with boxes, but spheres etc. are not supported actually, right?)


Hoozer

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Philip
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 23:28 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 23:54
As Mike is reading this thread very regularly, I just wanted to drop in to say that I think DarkPhysics is thoroughly excellent. Well done Mike! (My Ageia PhysX card also says thanks as well). I particularly respect the amount of time you put into writing some very, very clear accompanying help and tutorials files.


Now the bear is off to have a look to see if there is anyway to define an object's mass in DarkPhysics. He's assuming not and that he should instead mathematically alter the magnitude of the vectors of the forces acting on the object by reference to relative mass instead.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
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Xarshi
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 01:35
ok,this may just yet turn out to be as good as I originally thought it would(dp that is). Now,all you need imo is better character controllers that can act as normal rigid bodies(ex. having rigid bodies jointed to them. that'd make me oh so very happy).

Hello
Codger
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 07:38
Maybe it is beyond the scope of the update but.... would it be possible to set multiple gravity points such as black holes or a binary star or perhaps a gravity gun?

System
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FX 5600 256 mem
Hoozer
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 12:17
@ Codger: I'm also a fan of "grav-effects" and as I worked with the "Novodex-SDK" (in 2004, now called AGEIA-SDK). I thought there would be a command for it, but in the Novodex-Forum I was told very fast that it has to be done by yourself.

In my DP-Software-Mode-Comp-Entry (PhysiX-Brick-Breakout) I also used anti-/gravity fields to distract/attract the boxes away from/towards my ball. As soon as they enter the "field" the force gets applied to te object. It is not too complicated, once you get used to it! BUT it would be much easier to use just a single command for the effect!


I must say a simple command-list like:

get gravity postion x,y,z (to get the actual position of the garv-point)
set gravity postion x,y,z (to set the position of the grav-point)
get gravity mass m (gets the mass of the grav-point)
set gravity mass m (sets the mass of the grav-point and the resulting force)
get gravity force f (gets the force of the grav-point)
set gravity force f (sets the force of the grav-point)
get force radius r (gets the radius in which the force gets applied to objects within this range)
set force radius r (set the radius)

would be very userfriendly!


Hoozer

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 12:49
Quote: "Quick example of the updated "phy make cloth from object" command:"


This is exactly what I have been waiting for Once this command is available and stable I'll add support for Dark PhysX into the open source engine (once the 3dw importer is done for it). Keep up the great work

Trowbee
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 20:34
There are a few missing commands, basically the ones to check if something exists (phy get character controller exist is one, off the top of my head).
Also, I'd have to agree with adding in more character controller commands to make it usable and a viable option.

As a feature request, I think maybe something like:
phy make gravity ID, X#, Y#, Z#, Radius
phy delete gravity ID
phy get gravity exist ID

might be fun to have. Throwing gravity grenades or something
Codger
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 03:52
Would it be possible to make the cloth parameters such that they can represent very brittle objects such as glass wood etc. That would be a great way to add some destroyable object such as crates and windows etc
Codger

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 05:11
That would be neat if you could make the cloth stiff... It would be awesome for glass...

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Philip
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Posted: 17th Mar 2007 18:02 Edited at: 17th Mar 2007 18:23
@Codger

Quote: "Maybe it is beyond the scope of the update but.... would it be possible to set multiple gravity points such as black holes or a binary star or perhaps a gravity gun?"


You can already do this easily. I've written and posted an example of simple Newtonian gravitation in a separate thread. If you want multiple gravity sources, you just apply multiple forces to each object, each force representing the separate gravity source. I'll post a further example of how to do this in the other thread. In fact, I might just use Sir Issac's gravitational field equation instead ...

@Hoozer

Quote: "
I must say a simple command-list like:

get gravity postion x,y,z (to get the actual position of the garv-point)
set gravity postion x,y,z (to set the position of the grav-point)
get gravity mass m (gets the mass of the grav-point)
set gravity mass m (sets the mass of the grav-point and the resulting force)
get gravity force f (gets the force of the grav-point)
set gravity force f (sets the force of the grav-point)
get force radius r (gets the radius in which the force gets applied to objects within this range)
set force radius r (set the radius)

would be very userfriendly!
"


Actually, it is a relatively trivial matter to write your own code to replicate those commands, based on good old Sir Issac's law of universal gravitation. For example, in pseudo code you would work out the force exerted on an object by a gravity point as follows:

type grav

x as float
y as float
z as float
mass as integer

endtype

type vec

x as float
y as float
z as float

endtype

gravity_sources(1) AS grav

gravity_sources(1).x = 30
gravity_sources(1).y = 20
gravity_sources(1).z = 10
gravity_sources(1).mass = 1000

(and we'll assume that there is an object called obj with a mass of 50 and the gravitational constant of the universe is 3)

null = make vector3(1)
set vector3 1, obj.x - gravity_sources(1).x, obj.y - gravity_sources(1).y, obj.z - gravity_sources(1).z
length# = length vector3(1)
normalize vector3 1, 1
unit_vec AS vec
unit_vec.x = x vector3(1)
unit_vec.y = y vector3(1)
unit_vec.z = z vector3(1)

force AS vec

force = 3 x ((obj.mass * gravity_sources(1).mass) / (length# * length#)) * unit_vec

I forget if in DBPro it is possible to multiple scalars by types to produce a typed result. If the line immediately above does not work, it would have to be broken down into each of the dimensions of the vector, i.e.:

force.x = blah blah blah * unit_vec.x
force.y = blah blah blah * unit_vec.y
force.z = blah blah blah * unit_vec.z


All that said, I do take your point that for coders who don't know or want to learn some physics, it might be nice to have some built in equations instead.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip" (Philip)
White knight
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Posted: 18th Mar 2007 03:17 Edited at: 18th Mar 2007 04:26
can you get liquids to work in software mode and is there a date set for the update with phy make cloth from object?
Also i don't know if you played ghost recon advanced warfighter if you can make some effects in software mode like real skin which i like graw.It works great in xp but as for vista it is very slow even in hardware mode.

new learning center comming soon http://911.bounceme.net/
Philip
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Posted: 18th Mar 2007 13:16 Edited at: 18th Mar 2007 17:06
Mike, I have a bug report. I can't find any help file for the phy set ground plane command. Its definitely included because I've looked at your demo (which works fine on my computer).

I'm presuming that there is only one argument for the command, namely 1, and that it sets up the ground plane as being the worldspace XZ plane, but I think that should be said in a help file.

**EDIT: Second bug report. I also cannot find any help file for the phy set rigid body gravity command. Again, its definitely included because it appears in the movement demo in the rigid bodies subfolder. I have a shrewd idea that it turns the effect of the default gravity on/off for each rigid body?

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
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Codger
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Posted: 18th Mar 2007 19:45
@Phillip

I think you are correct it only takes a command of 1 (which turns it on) it is established at Y 0., must be executed prior to phy start.


Quote: "Ground Plane



Information

The ground plane is a feature which can be enabled before the simulation is set up. It is controlled with the command phy set ground plane. When enabled an invisible plane is created with which objects can collide.



If your universe is not entirely enclosed then it is a good idea to enable a ground plane as it is a way of catching falling objects and allowing them to settle and in turn reduces processing time.
"


This is what is stated in the information file

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General Reed
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Posted: 21st Mar 2007 21:00
When will this update be released?

Beware, Killing chavs is not a crime, but is the only way to cure the earth
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Chenak
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Posted: 24th Mar 2007 01:39
I cant really reproduce the mass bug now for some reason, i think setting the skin width to a lower amount fixed it.

I do think having more useful character controller commands would be pretty much the most needed thing, as well as having it react with dynamic bodies easily.

I think the kinematic and dynamic squeezing problem should be fixed as stated in the manual. As in squeezing a dynamic object in between a kinematic object and a static object. Since the effect produced isnt good.
DEastham
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Posted: 24th Mar 2007 05:58
I don't think I've ever been so glad to have invested in a piece of game software. *wipes the tears*

Seriously, this is really nice. I too would like software fluids, and metal cloth would be extremely useful for armor damage in battle.
DEastham
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Posted: 24th Mar 2007 06:01
Oh, and Soft Bodies PLEASE with spring systems.

For putting a little swing into my guys' step.
Xarshi
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Posted: 24th Mar 2007 08:25
soft bodies do require hardware though,DEastham. And yeah...um...I guess everything else is possible,but in looking at the physx engine,it may be hard for tgc to implement. But idk. It depends on how they coded it.

Hello
TCarrillo
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 08:16
Any idea when this upgrade is going to be released?
Syncaidius
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 12:35 Edited at: 25th Mar 2007 13:23
Hey Mike, any news on deformable objects yet?

heres where i saw the deformable object video, for those of you who haven't seen it yet:
http://www.ageia.com/physx/tech_demos.html

EDIT:
I've so far found that there are a few commands in the help files that DarkBASIC pro doesnt actually recognize:

phy set fluid restitution ID, value#
phy set fluid adhesion ID, value#
phy set fluid rest per metre ID, value#
phy set fluid particles buffer cap ID, value#
phy set vehicle wheel brake torque ID, value#

Hope you can fix these mike becuase they are some of the main commands for controlling the way fluids react...

Hoozer
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 15:05
@ Benny53: The Softbody-Demos from the AGEIA-SDK work fine without Hardware! (As far what I have read in the AGEIA-forum, every new feature in the AGEIA-SDK will be available in Sw- and Hw-Mode!) So it is just a matter of time and motivation for TGC to implement it into DP!

My favorite "new" features I would like to see in DP are: Software-fluids, deformable objects, metal-cloth, softbodies (have a look at the AGEIA-Demos from the SDK to see what I mean or look at the videos from http://www.matthiasmueller.info/ )! BUT more important than this is to make the existing features "complete" (fix any open bugs / improve commands)!

If TGC would put the whole feature-set of SDK-V-2.7 into DP, it would be a massive expansion (what is worth calling an "Upgrade")!


Hoozer

AMD 64X2 4800+ (939); 2GB; GF 6800LE (@12PS, 6VS; 380 MHz, RAM: 434 MHz)
DP-Sw-Mode-Comp-Entry (updated to V. 1.3):
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=93582&b=5
Chenak
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 25th Mar 2007 17:15
I think they should find a way to optimize fluids before adding it in for software mode to be honest. It runs at 20fps on my computer O.o

its a 5k dual core AMD, 512mb geforce 7950 and 2gb of 800mhz ram with a physics card so me thinks software mode wont run it too well
Hoozer
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 8th Sep 2006
Location: Bremerhaven (Germany)
Posted: 25th Mar 2007 22:04
@ Chenak: I know what you mean!

I got the "Lession904" from the AGEIA-SDK running in software-mode and it works, but depending on the parameters of the fluid, it can really slow down into a dia-show! With the Lession my Dual-Core has 100% duty and no idle! It would be nice, if TGC could optimize DP that way that Dual-Cores are used more efficiently, cause it only utillizes my CPU(s) at about 50-64%!


Hoozer

AMD 64X2 4800+ (939); 2GB; GF 6800LE (@12PS, 6VS; 380 MHz, RAM: 434 MHz)
DP-Sw-Mode-Comp-Entry (updated to V. 1.3):
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=93582&b=5
Philip
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 15th Jun 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Mar 2007 00:06
Deformable objects? Yum yum yum. YES PLEASE!

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip" (Philip)
Syncaidius
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Mar 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Mar 2007 01:18 Edited at: 27th Mar 2007 01:19
Hey Mike, why cant you do what Walaber did with the Newton SDK. He wrapped nearly every command up so that we had complete control the physics.

If you did the same with the Ageia PhysX SDK, it'd make your life easier and give us complete control over the way we want to use the physics Engine.

Just a thought....

Jase
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: England
Posted: 29th Mar 2007 16:25
"make cloth from object" looks very cool. How cool would "make liquid from object" be? You could have an object melt into a puddle and even maybe do it in reverse

MetalMackey

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