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Geek Culture / Going to North Korea in August--- any advice?

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Grandma
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007 20:51 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2007 20:57
You hit the nail on the head perfect there Peter. That's usually how it's done, an example would be the discovery that global warming isn't human-made, but a sideffect of the suns heating/cooling cycle every couple of thousand years, thus earth gets hotter and colder aswell. I'd say that's a big story that got alittle under-reported.

Altough it's been many years Since they figured it out, it should be talked about more as there is alot of disinfo out there on the subject.

I have this strange feeling we are getting sligtly more and more off-topic though. Anyways, i wish you a good trip jeku and remember to tell us all about it when you get back.....unless they forced you to sign some confidentiality papers, lol.

Haha, would be funny though if you came back all brainwashed, continously making threads about how great the leader is.

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007 21:26
Thanks for the good words, guys. I'm already starting to get a bit nervous about, funnily enough, my stay in China before the trip. I've only flown off this continent once, 5 years ago, to visit England. My world travel experience is fairly limited, so I have to book everything (hotels, etc.) beforehand to make sure I don't have to sleep in the streets

Steve J
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007 21:40
Sleeping on the streets in China? Good luck, they've been booked by the citizens

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Philip
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Posted: 24th Mar 2007 18:55
Quote: "There are so many, it's great reading about all these things "


Reading lies is fun?

I have respect for you Jeku as a forum regular and a significant contributor to the community. Therefore, I hope you won't be offended if I bluntly express my view that this trip is effectively immoral and profoundly naive. North Korea is a ghastly, appalling regime that oppresses the populace of the region it controls. By travelling to and spending money there, you are indirectly supporting the regime and thus, even in a tiny way, helping to prolong its existence.

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El Goorf
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Posted: 24th Mar 2007 21:58
pfft... Philip, honestly >.>

do you not pay taxes? do you not have a bank account? do you not know where money in either of these 2 places goes to?

i believe as respect for jeku that he has every right to see korea for himself, and if he thinks he's a ghastly place upon actually seeing it himself, then he can tell us.

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 02:37
Quote: "Reading lies is fun?"


Reading information and excerpts on just *how* brainwashed an entire country--- 25 million people--- can be is very interesting. North Korea is the only country to have a communistic dynasty, and their ideology, juche, is in the top 10 religions in the world. So yes, it is fun to study.

Quote: "I have respect for you Jeku as a forum regular and a significant contributor to the community. Therefore, I hope you won't be offended if I bluntly express my view that this trip is effectively immoral and profoundly naive. North Korea is a ghastly, appalling regime that oppresses the populace of the region it controls. By travelling to and spending money there, you are indirectly supporting the regime and thus, even in a tiny way, helping to prolong its existence."


Don't worry, I'm not offended--- my parents told me the same thing when I announced my intention to visit the country

On the flipside to your argument, the population in NK are told to fear Americans and other foreigners. For me to go there and meet and talk to the people there will give me an opportunity to show them that western people are just like them, and not living monsters. I've been reading tons of blog journals from people's travels there, and I've got a sense that the people really are warming up to the west.

By the way, Kim Jong-Il is not dependent on the tourism industry Less than 10,000 tourists visit every year. Me buying some stamps in a tourist shop is a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of millions in cash KJI gets from companies and countries around the world.

Although you think it's naive to go, you'd be surprised at how much I've researched on the country.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 21:40
wow, I just watched an "Explorer" on National Geographic Channel last night on North Korea, and, no offense to you, but it's disgusting. Everything about it-the malnutrition, the obsession with the "Great Leader", the mindless anti-American sentiments, the isolation, the hypocrisy of Kim Jong, and the hate for South Korea.

The 7 year olds are something like 22 pounds lighter than the world average, and some inches shorter.

They are completely brainwashed into thinking that their leader is a god, and they have pictures of him on practically every wall in the country, and must respect him in every way (even in that you have to take only a full picture of the leaders portraits).

The only way they got into the country to film it was by posing as a crew making a documentary on an eye surgeon on 1000 people (propaganda of course), and then when he healed them, when they could first see, the first thing they did was go and bow down to a portrait of Kim Jong and praise him (one person said she would work harder in the salt mines now that he had helped her (even though he had nothing to do with it)).

All of their songs are either about their leader or hating Americans. One of the nursery rhymes was something like "The pathetic Americans fall on their knees, and beg for mercy" . The Korean War was 50 years ago, almost as long as WWII, and yet they are still brought up to hate Americans. That's like Germany or Japan or Italy still holding a major grudge against us from WWII (so much that almost everyone wants to kill us).

They oppress their own people by putting them in what is practically concentration camps. They interviewed a guard for one of them that escaped and he said that he saw fellow officers shoot people for minor offenses like trying to catch rats to eat. They put entire families in prison for one persons offense, and murder them if one of them tries to escape the country.

They have no internet, cell phones, or "real" news. It's ridiculous. And yet, the "Great Leader" himself gets luxurious AMERICAN imports to satisfy whatever his needs are, in one of the most hypocritical acts I've ever heard of, considering he brainwashes his entire country into hating America.

The demilitarized zone, while interesting, is completely ridiculous. It is literally an inch high, 6 inch wide, concrete line that separates the two sides in between two buildings, each having guards on the other side. The North Koreans have 3 guards for each "portal", two of them have to stare at eachother to make sure the other doesn't run across to the South Korean/US joint forces (although theres nothing that would really stop them) (look at the pictures here, it's hard to describe)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone
When they have to get a message across the border, the US and Koreans literally have to stand at the edge of the line and yell it through a loudspeaker, and receive no response (even for something, like on the program, a North Korean soldiers body floated downstream after a flood and they wanted to return it), because the one phone that connects the two sides, made in 1962, the North Koreans never answer. They have one room for meetings between North Koreans and South Koreans/US, which is accessible to both sides (the blue buildings on each side of the portal in those pictures), and when the South Koreans open the door in it, they have to hold each others hands to make sure they don't get pulled over to the other side.

I would say that I don't mean any offense to North Koreans, but a) None of them can see this anyways, considering they are isolated and an entire country of brainwashed citizens, and b) I do mean offense, this is just ridiculous.

I don't, however, mean any offense to Jeku, and I do see how he finds it interesting, but I would never support a country (even through tourism) like that. It's worse than visiting Nazi Germany during WWII. I hope you have fun on your trip anyways .


Jeku
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 23:13
Well, I agree with all the things you say about the country.

However, if you think this disaster is solely the fault of the North Koreans, then you are mistaken. Kim Il-Sung was worse than Stalin, Mao, and other leaders, but those two put him in power originally. They groomed and taught him how to begin a personality cult.

And let's just say, without getting too political, the North Koreans' attitude toward the Americans is not baseless. If you read up on the other side (from a non-biased source), you'll discover why they hate them and still do. Their attitude calmed a bit during the Clinton administration, even with a congresswoman visiting Kim Jong-Il.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 23:37
Quote: "If you read up on the other side (from a non-biased source), you'll discover why they hate them and still do. "

I do realize that we bombed the crap out of a bunch of their cities, and that in all eyes (especially theirs) it may not be just, but in our eyes we were preventing the spread of communism during the Cold War. THEY invaded the South, not the other way around. And besides, like I said, that was 50 years ago, it's like Japan still hating us because we used nuclear weapons against them in WWII . I think the need to get over it and move on, even if they don't convert (like every other ex-communist country) to a democracy.

The entire idea of it is completely illogical, and it doesn't matter where you are from or how much propaganda your government puts out, it's common sense it doesn't work. It's saying that someone who saves lives (a doctor) gets the same privileges and salary as a someone who cleans floors (a janitor). We did an activity 2 years ago in World Geography to demonstrate this, and it was very effective IMO. We started having to color paper cars like a "factory", and had to meet a certain quota by a certain time. The first time we got something like 2 out of 12, the second 5 out of 12, the third 8 out of 12, and so on. Our efficiency improved, but the quality went down. So there is no motivation to do anything in a country like NK. And it's very obvious that it doesn't work, just by looking at the failed attempts at communism and successful attempts at democracy . I don't know why anyone would think that, even by looking at their own country, they are doing well. They are poor and dying, and need the aid they are offered, and that Kim Jong refuses. Again, no offense to anyone, but it just makes me mad to see an entire country brainwashed into thinking so many false things, and living in poverty, when they could be as prosperous as South Korea.


Jeku
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 23:48
The real reason why they are brainwashed to hate Americans, is it helps keep them obedient and ready to fight them when/if the time comes. They know the US is in South Korea, and they believe the South Koreans are held captive by the Americans. I think it's pretty smart of the NK government to keep their people angry at an early age, so when it comes down to the wire they'll be ready to fight. Of course I don't condone that sort of forced-will thinking, but it *is* smart all the same.

Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 23:58
Quote: "I think it's pretty smart of the NK government to keep their people angry at an early age, so when it comes down to the wire they'll be ready to fight."

These are my exact thoughts also.

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Peter H
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 00:16 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 00:17
yeah, i think it's not long before NK explodes

i mean, nuclear tests... HELLO PEOPLE

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Steve J
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 00:17 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 00:18
If Kim Jong had a myspace his favorite books would read:

1984, Animal Farm.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 00:56 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 00:56
Quote: "The real reason why they are brainwashed to hate Americans, is it helps keep them obedient and ready to fight them when/if the time comes."

And that's what's so bad...IF we ever do go to war with them, it won't be like Iraq where the majority of the citizens supported us, but instead nearly the entire country will be opposed to us, and willing to fight, so it won't be an easy fight.


Steve J
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 01:53
If an entire country hates you to your bones, then I say who cares. Drop the big one if they are going to kill all soldiers and citizens alike..

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 01:59 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 02:00
Quote: "Drop the big one if they are going to kill all soldiers and citizens alike.."

The problem is a) everyone would hate us even more than they already do, probably inciting a World War III, b) we'd be killing millions of innocents, and c) they have "big ones" too .


Steve J
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 02:06
We have more though, and they only have a pathetic atom bomb

Why Would everyone hate us more? We are in war, our men are getting killed, a country with nukes is "winning", attack them. The innocents aren't innocent, they all hate us remember?

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 02:51
Obviously dropping a nuke on 22 million people is not a solution. 99% of them are innocent. Is your only solution for people who hate you to kill them? Pretty shallow really.

If you're brought up from birth to do/say a certain thing, you will do it without question. If you are raised believing a giant pink elephant runs the world, you will believe it. Obviously there's no easy solution to this problem, as nobody has done anything about it in over 50 years.

Steve J
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 02:53
What I saying, if there is a war, that hate will turn into blood lust, and they will attack, even if we try and free them from the oppression. What solutions do we have? We can't dispose of the leader, they kill us, ect

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Agent Dink
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 02:54
This is getting political, but SteveJ we can't just start dropping nukes on any country we want. That is politcally the most retarded thing you can do if you want any respect from anyone in this world. Especially with environmentalists popping up everywhere. Also, there are globabl repurcussions with fallout and radiation all over the place, and potentially jeapordize South Korea.

It's a very very bad idea to start throwing Nukes around anyhow, NK might not have much to shoot at us, but other people do, and if we rub them the wrong way, our precious land of freedom will have a nice chunk taken out of it.

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Steve J
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 03:07
Quote: "This is getting political, but SteveJ we can't just start dropping nukes on any country we want. That is politcally the most retarded thing you can do if you want any respect from anyone in this world. Especially with environmentalists popping up everywhere. Also, there are globabl repurcussions with fallout and radiation all over the place, and potentially jeapordize South Korea.

It's a very very bad idea to start throwing Nukes around anyhow, NK might not have much to shoot at us, but other people do, and if we rub them the wrong way, our precious land of freedom will have a nice chunk taken out of it."



Now, if you slowly pay attention to what I said, you make it sound as if I am some great evil, but what I said was: If we go to war to help free them from oppression, and everyone agrees they distain this, but they attack us for it, and all of them do, everyone hates us, then WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? It is immoral to leave them under a dictator like that, but they will kill us, rip us to shreds. Their existence really does threaten us. Should we sit there and watch as their pop sky rockets, or they get more nukes?

Now, Obviously you dont know much on nuclear weapons, because modern bombs are far more efficient than the stone age atom bombs that leave extreme amounts of fallout. We could, drop a neutron bomb if we felt threatened enough, even if it means breaking that old treaty we signed. We could always drop a fusion warhead. These leave less fallout. They also have a lower radiation lasting time, we aren't as primitive as Chernobyl.

We aren't throwing nukes around, Im sorry but all I am saying is that if we can't fix something, we can't help it, we have no options, and it is immoral for us to not do anything, but they will kill us if we do the moral thing to do, what should we do?

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 03:28 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 03:29
Actually, if you want to be technical, we are still at war with North Korea, because we never signed a peace agreement, there was only a cease-fire. So we are really in a long cease-fire with them right now.

Quote: "We aren't throwing nukes around, Im sorry but all I am saying is that if we can't fix something, we can't help it, we have no options, and it is immoral for us to not do anything, but they will kill us if we do the moral thing to do, what should we do?"

It seems to me our only realistic option is to simply let them be. They will destroy themselves with time, and let's hope they keep that destruction isolated. No amount of force, propaganda, or weapons will be able to stop the nation without destroying it. Even if we carried out a war to free the people from oppression, 99% of them would fight back, because they don't know any better. There's nothing you can do, an entire nation is set against us, and it looks like we're locked in a stale mate. Since obviously they are much worse off than we are, all we can do is sit and let them destroy themselves from the inside out, in whatever methods that may be (I doubt revolution because of the immense amount of brainwashing). If we leave them alone, hopefully they will leave us alone, and if not, we'd be forced to act, and it would no longer be viewed by the world as an offensive act, because we would not be the instigators, and hopefully it would be most of the world vs. North Korea, instead of the US/South Korea vs. North Korea.


Jeku
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 05:14
And considering they have the 4th largest army in the world, it's a force to be reckoned with.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 05:23
Yeah, and that's not counting the millions who would fight if called on if we did go to war. I don't doubt that we would come out the winners, considering the worlds superpowers and most of the world would be against them (UK, US, Canada, hopefully much of Asia, Australia, EU forces, and possibly some Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia). It would be a very bloody war though, and probably considered a WWIII. The first time someone uses a nuclear weapon, whoever that may be, I don't doubt will cause a WWIII, because nobody can just ignore something like that. Like I said, seems like our best bet is just to let them destroy themselves, all we'd be doing by invading would be accelerating the destruction, and we'd be held responsible instead of their own people/leader.


Jeku
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 05:34
Alright let's wind this conversation down politically

Anyone been to Beijing and stayed in a good or bad hotel?

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 05:47
Quote: "Alright let's wind this conversation down politically "

Alright, sorry, not trying to get political, I just like discussing ideas .

I've never been out of the US .


Tapewormz
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 16:31
Don't catch sars...

Jeku
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 19:28
Well, according to the NK guides, kimchi (their daily fermented cabbage meal) fights off SARS. Plus when the epidemic broke out they locked down their border 100% for a long time. No SARS in that country

Agent Dink
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 20:58
Quote: "Well, according to the NK guides, kimchi (their daily fermented cabbage meal) fights off SARS. Plus when the epidemic broke out they locked down their border 100% for a long time. No SARS in that country "


That may be some more of that lovely propoganda from the "Great Leader" to attract more tourists... and kill Americans!

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Peter H
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 22:04
Quote: "Anyone been to Beijing and stayed in a good or bad hotel?"

sorry, if you were talking about Hong Kong (which isn't on mainland china) i stayed there for a month...

but i doubt anybody here has stayed in Beijing...

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 22:19
Quote: "but i doubt anybody here has stayed in Beijing..."


Why? It's the capital of China--- would have thought somebody from a large public forum would have been there. Oh well then!

Osiris
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 23:45
Quote: "they only have a pathetic atom bomb"

I don't know why but that made me laugh...really hard. Its like "Well sir, we have this bomb thats like two tons of TNT..." "Well I think we need to make a bigger one...just to be safe."

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 01:42
It may be a "patheric A-bomb", but it still whipes out a nice sized portion of a major city and tens of thousands of people.

And yes, its interesting to know there are people out there working around the clock to figure out better ways to blow life off the face of the planet... wonderful job.

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Steve J
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 01:55
I would, I know a nuclear physist, he is getting his masters in business with a few other people I know right now. Its a really interesting job, plus they are testing again lol.

I didnt mean it that way, just pathetic in comparison to recent advances.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
DrewG
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 03:31
Quote: "And considering they have the 4th largest army in the world, it's a force to be reckoned with."


Hmm... You may be fourth largest, but which kicks the most arse?





USA! USA! USA!


I mean, not just cause I said so, but because Jimmy is the army. Pwns you right there.

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Ankillito
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 04:16
Probably off topic, but when I was in the Koean International Airport, I played Uno with a family I didn't know that didn't speak English... Anyways, you're going to NORTH Korea?!? My advice, don't get nuked.

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
Steve J
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 05:21
@Drew: Of course with you size doesnt matter

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
DrewG
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 06:25
Quote: "@Drew: Of course with you size doesnt matter"


eh? I don't understand this. and no, I'm not small or anything.
what do you mean?

-Drew
Peter H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 19:57
Quote: "eh? I don't understand this. and no, I'm not small or anything.
what do you mean?"

ROFLcopters!

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DrewG
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 01:28
Hey I'm 6'2''
Kentaree
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 19:05
I think they might be making a penis joke...

DrewG
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 00:25
I have size 14 shoes. Put that in you're pipe and smoke it.
Steve J
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 01:54
Oh, so you actually believe that old myth

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
DrewG
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 02:17 Edited at: 29th Mar 2007 02:17
I don't believe in false myths as that one is not;(false).
heartbone
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 02:34 Edited at: 29th Mar 2007 02:34


What does this say?

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
DrewG
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 03:03
Heck if I know, I don't speak japanese.
Milkman
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 03:40
It's Korean.

Who needs a signature?
Osiris
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 04:02 Edited at: 29th Mar 2007 04:02
Lol

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DrewG
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 05:16
What do you think I am? Korean?
FINN MAN
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 06:00
my brother just got back a few weeks ago from there, he is in the air force, was there for 2 years. he really liked it, the only bad time he had was when he woke up in the back of a cab with nothing in site but rice patties. the driver thought he said some place other then the base, was a mess until he found someone that spoke English. so just don't get drunk and get in a cab.

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