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Geek Culture / Indi development vision

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The admiral
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Posted: 30th May 2007 02:48
This community has many great and talented people. Yet so seldom do we see software completed and released successfully. Yes we are hobbyists and independent developers but I believe this community is capable of more. Our greatest failing is building and maintaining teams. This is no ones fault for we all lead busy lives and many things get in our way. But just imagine if we have systems and ways of managing teams, advice for programmers and artists and all who develop with basic. Support for those who needed it And a place for teams to join together online keep each other updated and search for more help. Not just programmers or artists but project leaders and writers, musicians and more. I believe that if we pulled together if we worked under command conditions we could achieve many great things. So I propose to the community that a website be developed. A hub where all can come post or read articles, create teams and maintain them, search for team members, gain support from others knowledge and share information. With this and the backing of the community we will see results as we can train new people how to effectively develop teams, run projects and learn to code. The real question is do you share this vision also.

The admiral
Dr Manette
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Posted: 30th May 2007 02:56
Hmm, a very "admiral" idea (pun intended ). I can see this sort of thing being very useful on a small scale, but then exploding into a giant community with many many facets. Hence, this forums is pretty much what you described. I would, however, agree that many people have trouble completing their projects, let alone finding people to help.

I'm not much of a web designer, but I could help you or who ever start something like this. Of course, this is assuming a lot of people are interested.

"United we stand, divided we fall." Indi dev for the win!

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 05:38 Edited at: 30th May 2007 05:43
Quote: "The real question is do you share this vision also."

Indie software teams don't work in the manner in which you envision. A team can only consist of a couple hand picked people, not a bunch of hoodlums that sign up for the team via a website. It's real work, and you either have to pay someone or team up with a close (and talented) friend that shares your specific vision.

The old team request board was exactly what you are proposing, and it failed miserably.


Come see the WIP!
The admiral
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Posted: 30th May 2007 05:55
If people have a better way of organising and communicating about projects they will have a greater chance of succes. With a larger pool of people to dip into there will be easily available help on hand. Yes it will have to moderated and some ground rules set But if we put the effort in I beleive we can accomplish something both different to this site and useful.

The admiral
DrewG
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Posted: 30th May 2007 05:58
Aight, here's one.

We have a new "Karma" Bar on each profile. If that is a helpful user, and does post good code and stuff, they get access to a board that you must have a karma of lets say 25 or higher. Therefore, for every code snippet or thing you post, or tutorial, one can click the bar and your amount increases. That way people have an incentive to actually post good stuff, and not crap like most, (which can include some of my previous posts).

my 2 cents
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 06:21
Quote: "If people have a better way of organising and communicating about projects they will have a greater chance of succes."

The team request board + the other board sections theoretically did this.

Quote: "With a larger pool of people to dip into there will be easily available help on hand."

This forum has a large pool of people, all of whom had direct access to the team request board.

Quote: "Yes it will have to moderated and some ground rules set"

It was moderated as well.

Lots of personal sites have been started with team request boards. Nobody ever uses them because they get very little traffic. The only way for a DBP team request board to work would be for it to be on here. However, as I've said, it just didn't work.


Come see the WIP!
Agent Dink
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Posted: 30th May 2007 06:21
That's a good idea SSS, but I wouldn't call it a "Karma Bar" that delves into religion which is frowned upon in this forum due to the volatile nature of discussions regarding the said topic. However a user rating would be cool. Dang, I shouldn't have posted all those textures etc. until AFTER they implement that feature.

Free music, textures, models, and tutorials.
Silver Dawn
Jeku
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Posted: 30th May 2007 06:38
Quote: "We have a new "Karma" Bar on each profile."


Surely you wouldn't benefit from that, would you?

It's difficult to pull a typical 9-5 job, and have a family while working and finishing an indie game. Most people lose interest and give up. Myself, if I were legally allowed to work on a venture I would, but not everyone shares your gusto.

But instead of just talking about it--- why don't you do it yourself? Create the site and see what happens. It's easy to say this and that *should* be done.

The admiral
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Posted: 30th May 2007 07:36
Cash you keep speaking to me as if my idea is a forum it is not try and think of it more like a blog/community way different. People will be able to create projects online and allow their team members to access them post news updates,store files ,personal blogs etc.

The admiral
indi
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Posted: 30th May 2007 07:50
Quote: ""Karma" Bar"

we had of those a few years ago and it was exploited and abused.

The Admiral, your concept sounds like a good idea. You should enact on it, instead of throwing out the speculation.

However its hardly a blog, your going to need to deploy a CVS for multiple projects as people wlll need access to many types of media and project controls.

get some webspace, install a CVS and start setting it up.

Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 10:06
I agree with Cash on this one, really the most succesful teams here consist of at most, 3 people - too many cooks spoil the broth, and 10 dish washers do not equal 1 cook .

Frankly, I'm suspicious of single-talented people, damn that sounds so arrogant. I mean if all you can do is model, and not texture, then you simply won't be a great help on an indi project. Really what is required is people who can take on the entire scope of media, not just modelling, but UV'ing, texturing, animating, and most importantly ending up with media that works well for DBPro. Same goes for musicians, a musso working on an indi project should be taking on responsibility for sound effects and how they are used.

An indi project is a great way for people to showcase their talents, whether it's code, media, or design, you have to want it to absolutely rock, you need to be determined to get it done, or there's no point even starting a team project. When people volunteer media, really you have to decide if it's even useful to do that - what is the point in having 10 artists producing work that simply doesn't match anything. Sensible project leaders would delegate media to be the responsibility of 1 person, who's job would be to keep continuity - root out the best texturer and make them work on continuity, even if it means other people simply don't draw textures - if someone is producing work that is not upto the standard of the other work, then it needs dealt with - tactfully, but it's this stuff that bury's projects everytime.

We don't ever see projects managed to that degree though, mostly it's just a mish-mash of styles, or often coder-art, because actually getting artists to produce the work that you need and not the work that they want to see in game, well it's not easy.
I have worked with a few artists, and every time I end up doing bits I didn't think I'd have to, like level design.

Currently I have a reasonably big project on the go, with the Tito guys (Dimsdale&Creosote), writing a new engine in DBPro for them - I won't be messing around with media or level design because they're experienced with that stuff already in the past incarnations of Tito, it makes a change to just have to worry about code!. Experience is key, it's what get's projects finished, that and coffee.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 10:16
We were always told in Uni that 6 was the magic number for a team working on a programming project. And thats not 6 programmers. More like 2-3 programmers with everyone else doing other jobs (such as design, although obviously there is overlap). This was for business applications but from what I've seen it looks good for games too. Basically less than 6 is not as productive and more than 6 has too much stepping on each others toes, unproductivity (ie. waiting around with nothing to do until something is completed), and gets into the too many cooks scenario. Obviously this was a pretty general idea, and your team of 20 people might work brilliantly.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
dark coder
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Posted: 30th May 2007 10:16
Quote: "Frankly, I'm suspicious of single-talented people, damn that sounds so arrogant. I mean if all you can do is model, and not texture, then you simply won't be a great help on an indi project."


I couldn't agree more, if I had started programming before I was into modelling and level design then I'd be stuck using default media and relying on free sources, I can't bear the thought of thinking I couldn't make media for my games. I believe any indi coder should at least know the basics of modelling as it can be a life saver, even if you're in a team with an artist they may not be able to produce temporary media fast enough for when you need it.

Raven
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Posted: 30th May 2007 10:58
I think the main issue with the old team request system is, well it wasn't a system. All it was, was a forum.

It's like giving someone a car then expecting them to keep to the road rules without any lessons or such. I think firmly this is why it didn't work, last time.

If it was all done correctly, I reckon it could work quite well. One the key ways is to take away the whole "I have a company" and "Paid Work" promise posts.. while it might peak interest, most of the time it's a lie and doesn't guarentee you can work together in an environment where you're not really tied to the work apart from how much you want to do it.

Have some ideas for it, but having trouble thinking of a way to explain them atm. Think the site should provide for users, teams, developments, and publishing.

Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 11:00
Yeah, I actually learned modelling through necessity, which is usually the best way. I'm not too great at modelling, but I have enough techniques to make practically anything these days. If I hadn't learned to model, texture, and animate, then I'd probably be back coding 2D stuff again.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
BatVink
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Posted: 30th May 2007 11:17
If you want team requests, TDK has them on his forum, and Karma
http://www.computechtenerife.com/forum/index.php

What you ideally need is something like http://linkedin.com, where you only get to make connections through recommendations. So if you want to be part of Team A, you know me and I'm in it, I can recommend you. Equally, if you don't know anyone, you can get someone who knows you and me to make an introduction. In other words, you don't get into a team until someone recommends you.
The concept is called "Organic Groups". However, you need someone who has implemented it before to create it, it's easy to do but complex to get right.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 12:01
Quote: "I believe any indi coder should at least know the basics of modelling"

I absolutely agree. Being able to model is absolutely essential to making an indi game. Projects that must have someone else do all of the modeling work is going to fail.

I can automatically tell that a project is going to fail if the person making it is using placeholder cubes and proclaims that they're incapable of modeling. The most free media I've ever seen outsiders contribute to a project is one or two models, almost always to an RPG.


Come see the WIP!
The admiral
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Posted: 30th May 2007 12:39
I dont quite a agree although a basic knowledge in art is good i dont feel like its necessary. Me and my artist work along side each other i develop the engine and game systems he creates all manner of graphical features. We do this because he specialises in graphics and i specialise in programmer it just works better if you stick to what you know best.

The admiral
Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 12:59
Hardly a tangible argument Admiral, considering your artist is Moondog, who's probably forgotten more about making game media than most amateur modellers will ever know. That's exactly the point we're trying to make dude - choose your team carefully, get people who know what's required for the engine. It's easy to get all clammy at the sight of a great render, but a great render and a great game model are 2 completely different things.
A coder should know how models work, how texturing works, how animation works, it's the only way to incorporate media properly. A modeller needs to know the limits and quirks of the engine they are working on, they also need to keep sensible control over polycounts and stuff, Moondog knows this, so despite disagreeing your proving our point nicely . Modelling for games is something that can only be learned through practice, by actually making models for games, and learning what steps to take to ensure the model is useful for the game engine.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Raven
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:13
Could that not also be part of the community?
I mean if Admiral gets a few of the more seasoned developers to write some whitepapers, perhaps have interviews with the more successful teams with what it takes to make games.

Just have it more involved in terms of helping people to not only get in to game development, but also help them through the process of development each step of the way. Kinda like a "Game Development Kindergarden"

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:20
If someone needs to attend "Game Development Kindergarten", then they should visit the Newcomer's Section. They have no business creating a team, or even joining one.

Besides, such a resource would be best displayed on this site, added to the current list of tutorials.


Come see the WIP!
Raven
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:25
nice attitude towards the whole concept

Kentaree
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:27
I kind of half agree with the multi-talented part. Naturally nothing beats being able to do art and media yourself, especially in indie teams, but personally I've got the artistic skill of an extraordinarily inartistic rock. However, I would consider myself quite a good programmer. If it wasn't for media, I would have quite a few more finished projects under my belt, so a team would be a good situation for me.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:29 Edited at: 30th May 2007 13:30
Quote: "nice attitude towards the whole concept"

It is realistic and facilitates my success, as well as the value of my advice to others.


Come see the WIP!
dark coder
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:50 Edited at: 30th May 2007 13:57
Agreed, without quite in depth 3D knowledge you won't be able to makes games as good as if you had, there are many techniques in 3D to achieve various effects but these may need to be coupled with with the artist, the issue is that the artist may not know coding and any engine tricks to pull of certain things, and likewise the coder may not not know how to implement them and thus not suggest them to the modeller.

I do however think that there needs to be a better codebase like thing however Nicholas Thompson is working on one so that should help with things. But I would prefer something slightly different like where other open source teams like the ORPG project and Blackout etc could have their own space and people could download the latest code easily and propose changes and what not, then other things like the DBP programming challenges could have their own section too.

Quote: "I kind of half agree with the multi-talented part. Naturally nothing beats being able to do art and media yourself, especially in indie teams, but personally I've got the artistic skill of an extraordinarily inartistic rock. However, I would consider myself quite a good programmer. If it wasn't for media, I would have quite a few more finished projects under my belt, so a team would be a good situation for me."

However you have the advantage of learning programming from other languages which otherwise don't require graphics, DBP is pretty much the opposite as it natively cannot do most Win32 application buttons, list boxes etc so you're forced to learn alternative methods using sprites and / or other graphical means. I and many others(I hope) started programming with DBP and so not learning to create media isn't really an option IMO. I'd advise being in a mod team though, I joined a few in the past for the Battlefield 1942 engine as a modeller and soon learned texturing from others in the team as well as engine limitations and various other things, modding games yourself helps too. This way you can see how a professional engine handles things as you're probably far off being able to create one yourself.

Fallout
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:51
I think the problem is really simple.

How many projects have you seen where there was loads of media that was wasted because there was no code to use it?

None, or very very few. There is no shortage of coders. There's only a shortage of media, as that's the most difficult and time consuming part of the equation. So team requests and all that sorta stuff are pretty pointless because there is always a lack of media producers, and therefore no game.

So really, like Cash said, you gotta pay someone to get the media. It's just too much work for a hobbiest modeller to produce all the media required by a decent 3D game.


Raven
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Posted: 30th May 2007 13:52
Quote: "It is realistic and facilitates my success, as well as the value of my advice to others."


Others could call this having a big head.
I personally still learn things each week or so from code posted from other users here, either by learning something completely new or by seeing how to use something I already understood in a different way.

No doubt you'll sit there thinking, "well this is Raven, he claims to know a lot but knows nothing".. but then again if you don't think about the comment above seriously then feel sorry for you when you finally hit a wall with your current project.

Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 14:32
Quote: "I personally still learn things each week or so"
Yep. One day I was QAing the code of someone I employed (CS grads) and was genuingly quite cheerful about a line of code he used to toggle a boolean value. Basically x=1-x. Very simple, easy to remember, and I just never thought of it. Nice. Think we still sacked him though...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 14:52
In order for an indie developer to be successful, they must be multitalented.

@Raven -
You misunderstand me. There are lots of coders on this forum that are way more talented than I. I learn from different code examples every day.

Still, I'm a good coder and a good artist, and I'm very disciplined when it comes to things that I work on. In addition, I'll accept quality contributions from others in my projects whether it be code or media. The combination is very effective for me.

Quote: "feel sorry for you when you finally hit a wall with your current project."

Do you follow my project? If you do, you'll know that I'm way beyond any potential walls. It works, and is nearly finished. But then again...
Quote: "well this is Raven, he claims to know a lot but knows nothing"



Come see the WIP!
Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:04
Quote: "x=1-x"

Hah! - you certainly learn something new every day here!, never thought of doing it that way. Gonna have to remember that one.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
heartbone
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:08
Quote: "Being able to model is absolutely essential to making an indi game."


fog and I've been successful (hundreds of thousands of downloads) without a single model.
A popular list of successful totally free nonagware Arcade/Action games.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:08
Quote: "In order for an indie developer to be successful, they must be multitalented"
I would say it really helps, but is not crucial. Unless you are saying an indie developer totally on their own. Also people say about being able to use 3D applications like Max, or have a knowledge of 3D maths etc etc. Personally I think you also need to be artistic. People can draw, or put together basic models etc, but haven't the foggiest when it comes to the artistic side of things. Look how some websites from forum members here are put together. May be the most technical thing on the planet with amazing flash sequences and brilliant 3D effects blah blah blah, but if the colours rot your eyes and the layout gives you a headache then the creator is as artistic as a rubber chicken.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:09
I've only recently learned that method. LiT showed me something similar when I was writing my ABS replacement functions. It was a lot faster.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:10
Quote: "Hah!"
Yeah, thats what I said Always nice to come across something like that.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Fallout
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:17
Someone said ABS replacement functions?!?! I'm using a lot of ABS! Spill the beans.

Btw, I have great abs too.


heartbone
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:18
Quote: "Quote: "x=1-x"
Hah! - you certainly learn something new every day here!, never thought of doing it that way. Gonna have to remember that one."


I find that amazing that you have been successful without knowing this.

To toggle between any 2 values
say 20 and -17

Add the two values 20+(-17)= 3
and the toggle code becomes
X= 3-X

In the given example to toggle between 1 and 0
Add the two values 1+0= 1
and the toggle code is X= 1-X

Now you know the general toggle formula.

To toggle between A and B

X= (A+B)-X

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:21
Abs, haha

I'll send you the plugin, Fallout, probably tomorrow though (I have to check that it's the latest version). It has animation management + some math functions, namely abs. There are two commands, CC_absFloat and CC_absInt. Both are way, way faster than DBPs native command. If you use a lot in your loop, it will speed things up.

There is also included LiTs limb occlusion in plugin form, and the animation management system that I use in Geisha House. It allows you to define animations by entity. It supports 100 animations per entity, lets you specify a framerate for each separate animation, and gives you feedback on the position of the animation in 1/4 increments.


Come see the WIP!
Kentaree
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:21
heartbone, it's different for a boolean value because most people don't remember that it's actually an int value. Btw Dazzag, that will only work for some languages as in something like C++, false could be any value that's not 1 iirc. The way to do it then is a = !a to flip it.

Benjamin
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:31 Edited at: 30th May 2007 15:33
While we are on the subject of toggling things, I'm not sure how many people know this, but to negate a number you simply inverse its bits and add one. ie. myVar = (not myVar)+1.

Not relevant to boolean logic of course, just thought someone might find it handy to know.

Also, why would anyone use an ABS function when you can probably do it quicker manually?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:33
Quote: "I find that amazing that you have been successful without knowing this"
Hah! You work in business yet mate? Essentially if the client gets what they want then they don't care how you did it. I've seen code that a beginner spectrum programmer would find rubbish and yet a customer pays thousands for it. I find it amazing you didn't know that. Now I'm off to view the sea (while I'm programming for a living from my mortgage free property). If only I worked out the toggle sooner....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Kentaree
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:33
Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:35
Heartbone, dude if I let common sense dictate what I did and didn't do, then I'd probably still be eating lego's.

Hell, it was only a few years ago that I discovered you could compare strings, like IF ''eggs''>''bacon''... you should have seen my first ever bubble sort routine!.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Benjamin
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:36 Edited at: 30th May 2007 15:37
Edit: nvm

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Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:38
Ken, what about when myvar=0?

That's what's nice about that little code, it accounts for the 0. Your technique would require the variable to hold -1 or 1 before it would work, might be useful if you need to know the first time it toggles though.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Kentaree
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:39
VanB, that code there was to negate a value, not to toggle from true to false, it was in response to Ben's snippet.

dark coder
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:40 Edited at: 30th May 2007 15:41
Quote: "Uh, try this in DBP:

+ Code Snippet

myVar = -50
print myVar = -myVar
wait key"


Because you're printing the sum which DBP apparently cannot do on a command line, this works however:



Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2007 15:41
Ahh, I see the problem.




I need coffee.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Benjamin
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Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 30th May 2007 15:42
Dark coder, I realise that I had accidentally copied some code half onto another line. Besides, the point of my post was to show the principle, the code was just to put it in simpler terms for noobs such as yourself.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Kentaree
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Oct 2002
Location: Clonmel, Ireland
Posted: 30th May 2007 15:44
Maybe we should just start a thread with quick and dirty one-liners?

Raven
19
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 30th May 2007 15:48
Quote: "Do you follow my project? If you do, you'll know that I'm way beyond any potential walls. It works, and is nearly finished. But then again..."


on/off, don't exactly follow it religiously. while i can tell it's almost finish, i've often ended up hitting a wall with coding up a project on some of the most silly things. usually rather than one of the more coding intensive or complex aspects, it tends to be something i'll leave until last because it seems like something that should be simple enough to incorporate. i'm not saying this is the case here, but never count out the little things to prove the most difficult.

Quote: "Yep. One day I was QAing the code of someone I employed (CS grads) and was genuingly quite cheerful about a line of code he used to toggle a boolean value. Basically x=1-x. Very simple, easy to remember, and I just never thought of it. Nice. Think we still sacked him though..."


heh, well certainly the way. that's something i used to use in dbp before lee enhanced the "not" command. stupid how you'll do something everyday though and overlook something so simple.

back to my original point though, a site like this or yes suppose even expansion here would enhance the experience of being a developer. let those who don't find it so easy to develop solo, to join up with others like minded.

what I would personally think would be a good idea, would be to take all of the ideas by others and the features created here to have a more rounded and integrated system. codebase and gallery for example are good ideas, but they're totally seperate from the forum. users have to post in the WIP, or Showcase themselves making up their own posts and design for that post; but it might be better to have a project page. So people could search for projects, see related media, etc.. something similar to how Microsoft show off their games on xbox.com
link that with a "join team" if someone is looking for help, with a decent inbox message system you could communicate. a project upload area perhaps with CVS could allow for teams to work over the site, even add groups for those who have access to the team files or beta versions of the current upload.
if a steam-like client-side program was added we could expand what the website already had, and add features to publish games on this "TGC Arcade"

projects could link code they want to make open, this could then connect to the forum that could then be used more for support, or just pimping code. again a codebase system integrated with the forum could allow people to pimp what they want to using a common design and to allow for a better search system.

this could expand with technical support as well, an open QA with subject for specific games linked to the projects and such.

it's not that the ideas aren't already in practise here and other websites with a similar concept, just that everything here has been developed basically seperately from each other. some more integration is the key.
wouldn't mind seeing the main website revamped anyway, because it's way too "busy" a website; must be extremely daunting for newbies. a much more simplistic cleaner design would look more professional, and be easier to navigate.

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