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Geek Culture / BBFC bans Manhunt 2

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 17:39
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Quote: "Hobgoblin Lord. You obviously didn't live through the 70's and 80's have you? With this violence, it's just pushing the standards more and more. Back in the 80's, kids usually didn't see violence."


If you think this then you did not grow up at this time (I did, hell I was born in the 60's), everyone and their brother rented the Faces of Death movies (try and tell me that simulated violence is more disturbing then seeing a group of people club a monkey to death then eat it's brain, or watching a man decapitated by another with a machete is more wholesome). This was a period when the video store hit it's big boom and row upon row of slasher films, ninja films, and overly bloody martial arts flicks graced the racks.

Video games during this period were really tame granted, I remember a game (ninja something) in the arcade that had blood (green/yellow but still blood), but that was really new at the time.

Quote: "And therein lies the case for a ban! Because you see slasher movies, you think it's legal!?!?!?!?!?!"


Now you know darn well thats not what I was saying, SIMULATED violence in film, literature, and on stage are not illegal, they may carry a restricted level (US PG-13, R), and are never given a NC-17 for violence, only sex. Why should a game be banned over something that is acceptable in any other form of media?

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 18:14 Edited at: 20th Jun 2007 18:16
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Quote: "The government should not have a say as to it's suitability for ANY person. That is for the consumer market to decide."


Quote: "It's not even close, child porn(even simulated) is illegal in any form to people of any age, violence on the other hand is not as we can see by the number of slasher flicks that come out each year."


The violence depicted in the game is illegal in any form to people of any age. Such things are illegal even for combatants. Therefore, there is no difference, is there?

Your two statements above don't follow each other. You say that the government shouldn't be able to decide what's indecent, but agree that child porn should be considered indecent. What's the difference? Both are illegal, and terrible.

Mind you, I'm talking specifically about the violence in this game.


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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 20:51
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I always find myself agreeing with Cash Curtis II, in almost every thread.

Weird.
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MikeB
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 21:16
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Quote: "I always find myself agreeing with Cash Curtis II, in almost every thread.

Weird. "


And me .

E.D.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 21:27
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[quote]The government should not have a say as to it's suitability for ANY person. That is for the consumer market to decide. [email]

I think that's a daft thing to say, because that would mean no censorship and that would cause more problems than it would resolve, returning back to what someone said about a 'Paedophile simulator' - there's a market in games with child abuse - there's a market for selling kids cert. 18 porn movies - I mean there are quite a few kids would love to not have censorship there - also the removal of censorship means things could be less implicit - movie makers could maake violence really realistic - sex really realistic - with out any board censorship rating...well I'm sure Power Rangers could have the poential of being dirty if it had a better market there...There's a reason why there's censorship and these ratings - protection - same reason why we have laws.

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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 21:54
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I still don't see the big deal with this game. You are in an insane asylum trying to escape, and you have various ways to kill people. Big freaking deal. Do you honestly thing this is any different than chainsawing someone in half in Gears of War? Honestly, Jack Thompson is high-fiving himself in front of the mirror, especially because many gamers agree with the ban.

I wouldn't play this game, but I strongly disagree not allowing consenting adults to try it out.

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MikeB
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 21:57
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Quote: "Do you honestly thing this is any different than chainsawing someone in half in Gears of War?"


But that's just fun......

E.D.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 00:40
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I dunno, never played Gears of War I don't know what Man hunt 2 will be like, but you can understand why they have these regulations for releasing material - if it really is no worse than Gears of War then it's silly, I'd agree (Well after seeing if Gears of War reflects what I expect it to be like) But in my mind if they've set out a set of rules and guidelines of censoring offensive material and something is too offensive by the rules, then I think it is acceptable to apply the ban, a line needs to be drawn somewhere and the right place. -Considering bans are very rare and looking at things we've already got out, then Manhunt 2 must be pretty bad - assume everybody who is responsible for the ratings have done their job right.

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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 00:45 Edited at: 21st Jun 2007 00:45
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I like this quote I read from the destructoid.com game site. Thankfully most of their readers agree that this is outrageous.

Quote: "If the game allowed you to beat to death children, then use their dead bodies to beat other children to death, I would consider that ban-worthy.

If the game took actual predominant political figureheads and killed them in vicious horrible ways, and encouraged your doing so, that would probably be ban-worthy, to an extent.

But like you said, we should be given the right to decide for ourselves. What they should do is push an extensive campaign to completely educate parents that this game is not for their kids, at all. Not just outright ban it. "


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100% agreed.

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Data
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 01:08
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I agree with the quote, parents should be educated but it should be they're choice where to let their kid play it or not. I am sure there are tons of kids who couldn't handle it and couldn't tell the difference between reality and videogames but I also am sure there are kids who probably could. The decision should be with the parents.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 01:18
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Quote: "The violence depicted in the game is illegal in any form to people of any age. Such things are illegal even for combatants. Therefore, there is no difference, is there? "


Have to disagree there, The SIMULATED violence is not illegal, not sure about the UK or other places but even SIMULATED child porn is illegal in the US. In the case of the pedo game they would not be banning the game, it would be illegal. The ban on manhunt (well im talking about people asking for a ban in the US) would not be based on any existing law and would then be censorship. Censorship by the government of any art form needs to be fought tooth and nail.

From the clips I have seen of the game on rockstars site, it does not look all that worse then other games I have seen. I still would not buy it, games like that make me shake my head.

Quote: "there's a market for selling kids cert. 18 porn movies - I mean there are quite a few kids would love to not have censorship there "


Thats not censorship, it is limiting material to an age appropriate audience. I am all for Manhunt having the highest possible rating (though if it were a movie it would only be R). I am in favor of public groups boycotting places that sell it if they so choose. I can not however condone the government placing a ban on the game to advance their political position due to an imagined threat that the game poses. This goes right back to government officials burning books because they did not like the ideas possessed in them, a private citizen, or even that official acting as a private citizen has every right to buy copies of something and destroy it, refuse to buy it, tell others not to buy it, and withhold buisness from those that sell it. The government (here anyways) does not.

Take another example, many of our government officials have a strong negative view of homosexuality. What if they decided to begin banning games, movies, books whatever that contained these themes? Don't think it can't happen, once you cut the board you can't cut it again to make it longer.

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Chenak
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 03:58 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2007 03:59
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I've read a review on gamespot, apparently the gore level of the game is the same/similar to that of hostel/saw, and it has a good gritty story rather than just having violence for the shock value.

Since it is banned here, I imagine that the US will definately ban it though.

I honestly think the only reason it is banned is because of some nudity, from the description of the demo, it seems there is quite a bit of it. The gore cannot be worse than doom3, quake4 and a few other games so I'm thinking nudity is the problem. /sarcasm As we know, nudity is completely disgusting, immoral and if a child see's any form of nudity it burns there eyes out /end sarcasm
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FredP
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 04:41
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The ESRB gave it an AO rating.As far as I know they don't ban games in the US.The AO rating is a kiss of death however.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 04:41
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True. Based on the law, any alien, intelligent form of life would conclude that we love violence more than nudity.

Saw? Saw had no gore. What gore did Saw have? Two dead people and three times a bottle of ketchup being squashed into the face of someone (the question mark guy/Amanda, Dr.Gordon and Zepp/Adam).

Wow. Hostel, okay, that had some, but I think there's a difference between passive and active gore. Movies are passive. Games are not. I think the border lays somewhere else, and I do still agree with the decision (although I'll read the plot).


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Chenak
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 14:50
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Think they were refering to the 2nd and 3rd saw O.o
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 15:43
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What about hot shot part deux? Deadliest movie ever! I mean look at the amount of violence there! So so many people killed, it gives Robo-cop a run for its money.

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MikeB
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 16:00 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2007 16:05
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Quote: "What about hot shot part deux? Deadliest movie ever! I mean look at the amount of violence there! So so many people killed, it gives Robo-cop a run for its money. "


Was Robo-Cop that bad, I've not seen it?

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Jess T
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 16:58
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While it did have a kind of first-person element to it, it was the typical old-school murders.
No blood, very much just gun noises and then people fell over

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 17:06
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Quote: "Was Robo-Cop that bad, I've not seen it?"


It was a joke for anyone who has seen Hot Shots Part Deux, there's a bit where they count all of the kills in a Rambo style scene where it reaches higher than robo-cop. Neither are at all gory or bloody.

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MikeB
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 22:46
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Quote: "It was a joke for anyone who has seen Hot Shots Part Deux, there's a bit where they count all of the kills in a Rambo style scene where it reaches higher than robo-cop. Neither are at all gory or bloody. "


Shame really .

The only violent film I didn't enjoy BECAUSE! of the violence was Final Destination 3, because they're just normal college kids and they get utterly exterminated by car engine fans etc.
I believe you can find all of the deaths on meta cafe/dailymotion if you're interested...


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Thraxas
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 01:26
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Quote: "The only violent film I didn't enjoy BECAUSE! of the violence was Final Destination 3, because they're just normal college kids and they get utterly exterminated by car engine fans etc."


Actually I liked all those movies... I didn't think they were that overly violent..they were definitely gory but not violent... the death scenes were all quite clever IMO... The scene from American History X is violent...

I think it's impossible for anyone to agree/disagree with the ban... None of us have played the game so we can only go on what we have been told... The articles I have read by people praising it's ban are full of propaganda... One article, for example, claims it is a FPS... Seeing as we will never have the opportunity to play an unedited version (unless they release themselves for PC) we will never know what if the content was inappropriate or if it's just another political decision...

The biggest problem here is that non-gamers still believe gaming is JUST FOR CHILDREN... when it clearly isn't... Just as there are films you wouldn't let your children see there are games you shouldn't let your children play... When San Andreas came out I had to wait in a cue behind about 20 parents buying the game for their clearly under 18 children... The guy at the counter says "You know this game is rated 18".. and the parents just don't understand why a game would be for adults only so they buy it anyway... It amazes me because they wouldn't buy a film for their kids which are rated 18 but they're happy to buy them games which are rated 18...
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 07:58
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Quote: "When San Andreas came out I had to wait in a cue behind about 20 parents buying the game for their clearly under 18 children... The guy at the counter says "You know this game is rated 18".. and the parents just don't understand why a game would be for adults only so they buy it anyway... It amazes me because they wouldn't buy a film for their kids which are rated 18 but they're happy to buy them games which are rated 18... "


Reminds me of christmas a few years back when Vice City came out. I was working at AT&T and we would buy gifts for kids from the Boys and Girls club from lists they gave us. There was a big tree with all the cards with their list and as I scanned through them a ton of them had Vice City on it and most of the kids were aged 8-12. Needless to say I left those cards alone, but alot of people bought it for those kids having no clue what it was they were giving them.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 15:19 Edited at: 24th Jun 2007 15:26
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hmm... UK allows terrorists in like Abu Hamza to preach their ramblings.

why ban a computer game? they should ban most of the videos I see in some vid shops like 'I spit on your grave' that depicts a violent gang based rape scene.

I understand that some of rockstars games do stoop quite low such as 'The innocence' in Manhunt who ramble 'Daddy needs a release' which clearly is recognised as something involving children - I'm sure alot of people missed this, this was unnecessary.

It is the fault of the parents who allow their kids to play such games yet they blame the creators!

they are rated 18 for a reason, perhaps they should increase the age rating to 21, 21 for EVERYTHING nowadays, cigarettes, booze, driving etc..
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 15:57
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The ban isn't about children gamers, BBFC have a rating systems for acceptable material, they apply the ratings and well Manhunt 2 obviously turned out even unacceptable for the general audience of 18, so they ban it. Yes I'd probably agree there are some double standards going on.

Yes 18 is there for a reason - they don't rate it for nothing - but Manhunt 2 has nothing to do with irresponsible parents blaming the game industry when their kid starts talking about having sex with prostitutes and busting caps in people's donkeys, when they say "We don't let our six year old son watch 18 movies with American style gansters because it's just to violent and vulgar for his eyes, but his father bought him Grand Theft Auto for Christmas and my how can they let sell such games to children it's sick" - they're not taken seriously.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 16:28 Edited at: 24th Jun 2007 16:29
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this is madness! LOL

has any seen the volvic advert of tv?

the dinosaur talks to the volcano LOL, I know I'm sad haha, the dinosaur is talking about how he's going to 'snuff out' a sabre tooth tiger, then at the end he says, he's going to 'eat someones parents' i mean christ this is day time TV, surely that should be banned? you probably will have some kids after watching that advert going around saying they are gonna 'snuff' someone out!
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 17:08
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Don't be daft - surely you've seen kid's TV violence - Tom always tries to eat Jerry, characters get eated by a cat in Basil: The Great Mouse Detective. Bambi's mother gets killed - it's not done in a graphic way - or realistic. If Tyranosaurus Alan chased after a group of Saber tooth tigers, tore them limb from limb with blood every wear and mourning cubs...then it would be a different situation.

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Chenak
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 20:34 Edited at: 24th Jun 2007 20:43
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Still wondering how the hell it could fail to be rated 18 and thus banned.

Are they still thinking that violent media influences murder in any way?
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 21:55
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Well there's obviously a limit to what can be published, a child rape game obviously would be banned, but to objectively ban something they need a line between 'acceptable 18' and 'unacceptable' for legal purposes - it may be argued that Manhunt 2 is just acceptable, but it boviously crossed that line under their requirements. I mean some may argue that an 18 movie should be a 15, but under the guidelines the content says 18, so it becomes an 18.

Basically if Manhunt 2 is to be released, the company just need to make it acceptable by the legal guidelines. If you don't like it, appeal to their guidelines and the law - look on the brightside, censorship is no way near as bad as it was 50 years ago - hinted sex '18' - real sex - totally unacceptable.

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Chenak
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 23:13
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Im just curious as to what they put in to make it that bad. I've read the article and from what I can tell they are just saying its too violent.

It doesn't mention anything like a rape simulator or an actual snuff movie in the game, which I would consider bannable, but I doubt rockstar would do something that stupid... I think O.o
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Virtual X
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 23:46
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it's pathetic really, they allow games like 'The suffering' come out which is about a guy who apparently has murdered his own wife and kids.


Rockstar wouldn't be stupid as to ad a rape simulator!

I don't know why people who don't go around killing people should be made to suffer, thanks to all the fecking psychos out there we can't have abit of fun killing LOL

hmm... maybe I am a psycho, a 'virtual' psychopath lol
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Jun 2007 00:43 Edited at: 25th Jun 2007 00:49
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Quote: "It doesn't mention anything like a rape simulator or an actual snuff movie in the game, which I would consider bannable, but I doubt rockstar would do something that stupid... I think O.o"


Those are just extreme examples used for the extent game can be panned, to create a point that there is a limit to what a game can contain. Anyone who made those examples aren't referring to Manhunt 2.

My point of argument is that they do have a system for banning things, I don't know how fair it is, but games do have the ability to have a negative effect on people - the system is based on maturity in age - but there can be an extent in content when something is unacceptable for public release - which is the point of censorship. I know this system has double standards in one sense but I'm pretty sure the basis for the ratings is reasonable - especially after seeing what things movies and games have gotten away with - I think Rob Zombie's House of a 1000 corpses just made it - although I personally could watch things far worse without it having an effect on me and play things as well that are worse - but video games and movies do to some certain extent have an effect on people's behaviour - people with a good moral structure and ego aren't are likely to see the difference between reality and virtual reality - others won't.

If we were actually able to know what exactly in manhunt 2 is getting it banned, then maybe we can make a better judgement for this particular instance.

Quote: "I don't know why people who don't go around killing people should be made to suffer,"


We shouldn't, but that's what happens when you live in a society - the guys in the suits need to make the best decision - if something has the risk of influencing certain 'less stable/moral' people to worsen their state or crimes, then it would be the better decision to remove it until that risk is minimalised.

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Chenak
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Posted: 25th Jun 2007 01:06
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Yah, those were extreme examples

The audition..... *shudder*, Its the only movie so far that scared the crap out of me, after seeing that, every horror movie is like a comedy

I don't think movies and games effect a majority of people in the way of wanting to kill, maybe feeling more paranoid. After seeing Hostel, for a month I didn't think I'd want to go on holiday again

People murder to gain profit, out of passion or out of compulsion. If they are going to kill, its going to happen unless of course they get locked up. Its wether or not they are copying the style of media or media copying the style of the murder.

If a criminal blames it on a game for example, they can get thrown in a mental hospital instead of going to prison. 0.0

Media can easily get the blame because its convinient, and sometimes people want to think human beings are not capable of doing such horrible things without reason.
Its all confusing
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Jun 2007 01:32
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Quote: "I don't think movies and games effect a majority of people"


It doesn't even need to effect the majority - someone just had to get hurt when they shouldn't - and usually that's what it takes for somebody to do something.

Quote: "People murder to gain profit, out of passion or out of compulsion. If they are going to kill, its going to happen unless of course they get locked up. Its wether or not they are copying the style of media or media copying the style of the murder."


That's where certain double standards come in, I'm sure Karl Marx will have something to say about the money bit. There are several reasons why people murder, some require a group of reasons, some require one, some have it inside them like a ticking time bomb - I think it's good that they try to stop certain motives - but they don't go for the main ones - just the easy ones first.


Quote: "
Media can easily get the blame"


Most of the media, I dislike - last time I made my opinion on one part of the media led into a debate on something too political - I won't make that mistake again.

Quote: "If a criminal blames it on a game for example, they can get thrown in a mental hospital instead of going to prison."


This could be an issue - but I doubt they'd go to mental hospital, not every influenced criminal is a psycho, the judge would (or at least should) see that the person is responsible for their actions - those who blamed their murder's on Marilyn Manson's music got their punishment - (although his lyrics didn't glorify murdering anybody, but basically screw certain things amongst other depressing things.)

But who knows, psychologists are trying to prove/disprove things all of the time - Bandura proved the effects of television on young children and the hell I know of any other studies.

Also, if you want 'crap your pants' scary, go to see the play 'Woman in Black' apparently the atmosphere is far far scarier than any movie can create - my friends who went to see it describe it to be very freaky and frightening - what made it worse was when the woman could appear out of the audience and interact with people. I do seriously want to see it.

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Chenak
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Posted: 25th Jun 2007 01:46
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I mean media in terms of games/ movies / music and TV, just to be clear I was just too lazy to write the whole lot. Didn't mean anything political by it

Quote: "That's where certain double standards come in, I'm sure Karl Marx will have something to say about the money bit. There are several reasons why people murder, some require a group of reasons, some require one, some have it inside them like a ticking time bomb - I think it's good that they try to stop certain motives - but they don't go for the main ones - just the easy ones first."


You can still put them in each of those 3 categories, some may have more than one reason which may fit into more than 1 category though. The ticking time bomb would be compulsion I think.

The woman in black huh? Sounds interesting, if I see it I'll prolly need to go alone though, my fiancee doesn't like scary things O.o
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TDK
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Posted: 25th Jun 2007 01:48
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Let's get one thing straight - a game is just that - a game. It's not real life, it's escapism.

If a game is likely to influence a child then they shouldn't be able to play it - no argument there. If they do, then it's the fault of the children's parents for not keeping an eye on what's on their kid's computers.

The thing that bugs me is that somewhere, a group of oinks - probably a lot younger than me - have played this game and then decided that I can't play it!

OK, in this case, it's a game that I probably wouldn't be interested in playing anyway, but that's not the point. Who are they to state what I (an adult) can and can't do with my money/equipment. And, if it's that bad, since they have played it, shouldn't they now be raving psychopathic murderers too?

Saying that it might encourage people to go out and garrote someone doesn't wash I'm afraid, as that only applies to the few people who are not in touch with reality already - in which case, playing this game is only one of a thousand things that could tip them over the edge. If they don't play this game, it's only a matter of time before something else sets them off.

So, to me, it's a human rights/censorship issue. Why shouldn't I be able to play the games of my choice on my computer if I want to? It's my choice not theirs!

TDK_Man

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Jun 2007 22:32
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Quote: "If a game is likely to influence a child then they shouldn't be able to play it - no argument there. If they do, then it's the fault of the children's parents for not keeping an eye on what's on their kid's computers."


Indeed, so it gets rated based on that, then if it's unacceptable to all audiences, then it gets banned until it is acceptable by the terms of the censoring laws.

Quote: "Saying that it might encourage people to go out and garrote someone doesn't wash I'm afraid, as that only applies to the few people who are not in touch with reality already - in which case, playing this game is only one of a thousand things that could tip them over the edge. If they don't play this game, it's only a matter of time before something else sets them off."


Indeed, and there's enough immoral people, druggies and those with psychological issues to buy something like that, enough so to allow censorship to ban things that reach a certain level.

Quote: "So, to me, it's a human rights/censorship issue. Why shouldn't I be able to play the games of my choice on my computer if I want to? It's my choice not theirs!"


Yes, unfortunately that's the way it is - if Manhunt 2 appealed to me - I'd want to buy it 'as is' but I am ready to accept that there is that level of censorship - though breaking my right to choice, but when we live as a society rights need to be universable to a degree that benefits the society as a whole and not individually.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 01:22
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Quote: "Who are they to state what I (an adult) can and can't do with my money/equipment. And, if it's that bad, since they have played it, shouldn't they now be raving psychopathic murderers too?"

QFT

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 01:28
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Missed that quote...Any psychological conclusion isn't universal, but are usually individual, people process things differently - it's just like saying everybody who smokes cannibis will be a schizophrenic - it's not true - even if they are hardcore. Or alcohol makes you violent. By that principle, all the druggies I've met should be in a mental asylum and 99.9% of the UK should have an ASBO.

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 06:05
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Quote: "then if it's unacceptable to all audiences, then it gets banned until it is acceptable by the terms of the censoring laws."


But that's the argument--- reviewers who have seen recent versions of the game say it's tamer than the first Manhunt.

And like has been said, Hostel 2 was the most violent movie many, including myself, has ever seen. Gratuitous and graphic violence with full-frontal male nudity--- eating flesh, slowly sliced alive, pouring blood, etc. There's no way in the 9 hells Manhunt 2 is more unacceptable than that.

Quote: "Indeed, and there's enough immoral people, druggies and those with psychological issues to buy something like that, enough so to allow censorship to ban things that reach a certain level."


Geez, people, pick a side already! (This is not aimed at you specifically Seppuku). But really, I remember how we all bitched and moaned about Jack Thompson wanting to pre-emptively ban Bully because kids might copy the characters, and Vice City, San Andreas, etc. Pretty much 99% of this forum was up in arms. But now most of you siding with the argument that people imitate graphic crimes played out in video games? There's absolutely no evidence of this happening any more than in any other medium.

This is *clearly* an example of Rockstar getting picked on harsher than other companies, because of its track record.

Anyone here played Godfather for the Wii? You're a gangster, murderer--- got it? And you can strangle people with your Wii-mote. What's the freaking difference? This is the government telling us what is and what isn't decent, with no precedent.

I read a figure that something like only 20 movies and games have been banned in the UK, in total, in like the past 50 years. Manhunt? Give me a break.

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MikeB
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 11:29
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I'm with Jeku all the way on this.



Mike

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Super Nova
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 11:44
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Heres my two cents...

I own manhunt and can say that I enjoyed it for its gameplay. Of course there where moments in the game that disgusted me (shoot, the chain-saw decapitation in RE4 was horrific, but that game rocked!), but it was still a fun game overall. I find movies like hostel disturbing far beyond ANY video game because when you watch a movie, you really have no control what you see. In manhunt, you can, to a great extent, control what you see. Throughout most of the game YOU decide how brutal and violent its gonna be, if you want to snap someones neck, you choose to do so. Now Im not saying that there arent scenes and gameplay plots that ensure you see the gore, but 90% of the game, you are the one choosing what you see. If you are crafty enough in the game, you wont see any of the gore while playing that 90%. Im not saying this to make it seem like the fault of the people playing the game, surely they had nothing to do with whats in the game, but people who dont like gore in games wont buy games like this, and just because a game has violence doesn't mean adults should not be able to play it because parents/clerks are breaking the law and letting kids play em.

I was looking forward to manhunt 2 hoping it would bring some new gameplay elements into the mix, but I dont disagree with the ban either because I haven't played it, and dont even know if its similar to the first. I can say though that the whole wii controller idea when killing in the game does go beyond the limit for me because killing shouldnt the fun part/center point of any game.

About a year ago, I started working on a game similar to manhunt, which I was going to call manhunt online (its not commercial but still dont know if I can call it that legally), which was basically, as its name implies, an online version to manhunt where multiple players hunted one other player hiding through out the level. I did not start making this game to create a gorey game, but to bring the fun elements of manhunt into a online environment. Anyone who played and completed manhunt as a game, knows that it was about more than just killing, to me it was about strategy, but like I said before, you choose how you want to play it. And there you go...

Moral of the story... 1.) I dont care if its banned cuz i havent played it but i wish i had a chance to see for myself, 2.) The original manhunt was fun to me for its gameplay elements, 3.) Im working on manhunt online (its related to this topic).

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 15:35
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I agree there are movies more disturbing than any computer game. Hostel 2, from the parts I've seen of it, looks extremely gratuitous and unnecessary. I think it follows the recent trend of trying as hard as possible to shock and disturb, at the expense of any story line or any real point. It's basically a director with the single aim to attempt to emotionally disturb you, yet the censors seem to think Manhunt 2 is more emotionally disturbing. It makes no sense when you look at it like that.

BUT, I think the censors are have more in tune than we give them credit for. They know if they put 18 on a DVD and rate it "strong blood gore/horror", most parents won't let any kids under 15/16 watch it. As has been said before though, most parents still think computer games are for kids, so it's irrelevant if they censors put 18 on the game case ... parents will still let their kids play these games.

So I think the ban isn't to protect adults. It's still in place to protect children. While we have this culture of parents thinking games are for kids and letting their kids play absolutely anything, boards of censors will have to bear that in mind when rating things. So again, even though it affects our rights and freedoms as adults, ultimately, I think it's to save kids.


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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 15:54
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I think a new law should be brought in against parents who actually LET their children play games not suitable for them. Shopkeepers aren't allowed to sell games to underage people, but parents buy it for the kids anyway, with no repercussions. And none of this "my kid is mature for his age" bullcrap either, there's an age limit for a reason, mature kids aren't allowed to vote or drive either.

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FredP
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 16:25
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I don't think that's a good idea.While I am pretty sure I wouldn't let my kids play Manhunt 2 (if they weren't already grown up) as a parent it should be my decision what my kids do and do not play not the government's.
They are already taking things too far by trying to tell me what games I can play.I'll be damned if they tell me how to raise my kids.
In any event we all know what this is about and it has nothing to actually do with video games.
BTW how does someone else know what is suitable for my children?

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 16:31 Edited at: 26th Jun 2007 16:34
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What they really need is to introduce a new labeling system that goes on 1/4 of the front cover with a big fat "18" symbol on it, and a short blurb saying something like "Suitable only for adults - Contains extreme violence unsuitable for minors". In the case of GTA - "Suitable only for adults - Contains violence, adult language, drug and sexual references. This game is unsuitable for minors!" for example.

You've got to blatantly shove it down the parents throats. Perhaps even a splash screen at the start of every 18 rated game saying "this game is suitable only for adults" with a massive 18 symbol, so every time the kids put it on their playstation, mum hears that in the background. Eventually, she might feel a bit guilty, or may actually pay attention to what's going in the game.

edit: That sort of method allows Fred his freedom of choice, while making it blatantly obvious what choice you're making. Parents can't stick their heads in the sands and ignore the little red 18 symbol if it's there at the start of the game and takes up half the game box. They'll have to make that decision, rather than hide away from it and ignore it.


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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 16:54
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To be completely honest, I don't think this is an issue where parents should get to decide. Imho, a lot of criminality etc is caused by bad parenting, good parents are a lot less likely to let kids play such games anyway, so it's the bad parents you're targetting.

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 17:08
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Fred's point is a good one though. Parents should have the right to decide how to bring up their kids and when they're mature enough. I was allowed to watch 18 movies when I was about 13 or 14, so long as they didn't have too much swearing. My parents knew I was mature enough to understand the violence, but probably too immature to resist running around saying "mother f****er!!!" (they were probably right too). So I got to watch some good action films, but I wasn't allowed to watch films like Platoon. By the age of 15 or 16, I could watch anything.

I remember being about 10 and my dad not letting me watch Predator. All I saw was a few scenes from the jungle and some predator growls, and I had images in my head of a massive monster coming to eat them (cos they were always looking up into the trees). That scared me enough at the time, so my dad probably made the right choice.

Another example was, my parents stopped me from watching Steven King's 'IT' when I was about 12 (this is a 15 Cert film). I then later watched it on TV when I was about 13 and it scared the crap outta me! I went behind my parents back really, and I had nightmares over that film for months. So my parents made the right decisions really. The violent films didn't affect me, but the horrors they stopped me watching probably would've done, as would have the ones with loads of swearing.

So my point is, good parents can help kids grow up and mature at the rate they can handle, and get them ready for the big wide world. My parents did a good job. Hiding all the horrors of the world away from kids using laws is not the way to bring up well rounded children. Having said that, I do appreciate there are plenty of rubbish parents out there that could probably do with the government raising their kids for them.


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MikeB
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 17:53
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Yeah...my parents were similar to Fallout's...although it was more anti-nudity than anti-violence or swearing...

Cos everyone knows it's ok to watch someone's head get lopped off...or have a knife stuck in their throat, but nipples are HORRIFIC!



Mike

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 18:27
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Quote: "And like has been said, Hostel 2 was the most violent movie many, including myself, has ever seen. Gratuitous and graphic violence with full-frontal male nudity--- eating flesh, slowly sliced alive, pouring blood, etc. There's no way in the 9 hells Manhunt 2 is more unacceptable than that."


Then someone hasn't done their job properly or they're being stupid - Hostel 2 sounds like the highest boundaries to me and well if it really is milder than Manhunt 1 and Hostel 2, then there should be no reason to ban it. But you know, they'll stick to their decision because it has been made and people will have loads of arguments over it.

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the_winch
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Posted: 26th Jun 2007 20:37
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Quote: "I think a new law should be brought in against parents who actually LET their children play games not suitable for them."


How would you enforce it?

Install CCTV cameras in every house?
Form a police department that roams housing estates randomly kicking in doors?
Heavy handed punishments that ruin lives in the hope of deterring others?

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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