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Geek Culture / 80s better dacade for computers

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Commodore kid
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:34 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 15:22
Why cant ppl be as enthusiastic over computers as they where in the 80s and another thing why cant we have a bit of a choice like in the 80s walk into a computer shop then and they ask me what i want from a computer. I walk into a computer shop in the noughtys and im asked if i want a pc or a mac! shame on the computer world!!

I thought it was funny to offend other people's beliefs in my sig.
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:43 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 01:47
Yeah I know what you mean, but I don't think it's a change in the industry or anything, we're just getting older. My son get's excited at new games, like he simply had to have the new spiderman game and Overlord, but it's been a while since I looked forward to a game coming out, maybe the last time was RE4, this time it's RE5 . But there's no butterflies in the belly like I used to get when I'd get a new game as a kid.

I remember the old arguments, usually against Commodore I'm afraid, even though I loved my C64, especially SEUCK.

Like I started with a spectrum, and would defend it to the grave against the C64, then I got a C64 and had to ease up, but the I got an Atari ST and had to hate Commodore again . I actually got a CD32 from a mate, the first Commodore machine I've owned since the 64, got Liberation for it too, Captive is my all time favourite game. See that's the thing, I played Oblivion a lot, completed it all, yet I've probably spent 1 hundredth of the time on Oblivion as I did on Captive!.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Agent Dink
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:44
Ummm... its a different time. Any modern computer can pretty much do anything the other brands can do. Computers are everywhere nowadays. The hype is gone because they have become so commonplace. Almost everyone has some form of portable computer with them (Cell phones, laptops, iPods, etc.) There's just no reason to be all excited over them. The 80's had hype because computers were new.



Commodore kid
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:48 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 15:22
tbh im 16 years old but it make me angry how bad the computer world has become in so meny ways lol its not like i want computers to be slow and boring but i just want there to be more varity and maybe a bit more enthusiasum. no one bothers anymore!!.

I thought it was funny to offend other people's beliefs in my sig.
Commodore kid
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:50 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 15:22
lol i have a commodore 64 still trying to learn the old basic lol. i was gonna get a zx spectrum but decided on a commodore.

I thought it was funny to offend other people's beliefs in my sig.
Commodore kid
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:51 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 15:22
i dont wanna buy a mac or a pc but it seems bill gates and steve jobs want to make me sad

I thought it was funny to offend other people's beliefs in my sig.
indi
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 01:57
build a bridge and get over it

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 03:19
@Commodore kid -
You weren't even alive in the 80s.


Come see the WIP!
Inspire
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 03:22
Time machine!

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 04:16
Quote: "i dont wanna buy a mac or a pc"


that leaves you game/media consoles.
not being funny but the C64 was a PC, just from the 8bit era is all when there was a bit more variety to choose from.

I'd say you want to pine for the old days of the 80s (that you never experienced), what I would suggest is you research what went on during this period in computer history. There was basically no home industry to speak of, even the big companies were still small enough to be over-powered by small single man operations working from their bedrooms (in-fact companies like Rare (then Ultimate Play the Game) started out just that way)

There was more freedom for developers, and more potencial... which really continued until the mid-90s, but this said that all ended with the fall of Atari, and Amiga. Choice also receeded when Apple decided to take a back-seat to the x86-Compatible PC (aka Windows platform).

It wasn't until the mid-90s that the shockwave of the 80s culture finally caught up with the fledgling video game industry; and the market was to see everything closed behind experience and license agreements. You want to see one of the best examples of why the 80s wasn't as rosey as ppl like myself would love to remember it as; just search on google video for "The History of Tetris". You'd be amazed at what was done because of there being a very young industry; but also how much capitalism was trying to kill homebrew development behind legal walls.

Quite ironic that just over 15years on, and we're starting to return back to how things were conserning that aspect of game development and the machines available; simply because as professionals we can't keep up with technology.. nor can we have the imagination we once did; without sacrificing profit. So power being slowly being given back to end-users; anyone with an idea and a dream to create something interesting now has not simply the tools, but such a vast array of knowledge to achieve it without needing university training. Technology is so complex now we can't simply have a small manual with the machine and provide a basic language to expect people to achieve their means; but we're finally seeing the tools being put in-place to offset this fact.

The knowledge and tools is all you need for making a good idea reality. Back in the 80s we had all of that when we bought the computer.. it just took time, patience and curiosity.

I wouldn't sit here and say "this generation of computers, isn't like the 80s" simply because you have a choice of x86 or PPC architectures using Linux, Unix, Windows or MacOSX. Times have changed so we need these OS, and that architecture no longer matters so much.

There's everything you need out on the internet, to do what developers did back in the 80s. There are also some extremely innovative games that you can play for hours at a time. I'm not gonna lie and say I can still sit down and play new games like I used to with Elite/Frontier where I could just play it all the time in my freetime for months without getting bored. That said, I can no longer play those games.. as I'm grown up now, part of this lack is because of time (i.e. i have non anymore) but another part of this is simply that games can't hold my grip anymore as they're no longer a novelty they once were. There have to be bigger, better and contain aspects that I find enjoyable while being an evolution. As I've grown up so have my tastes.

I remember being able to sit down and play atic atac for several hours, but now.. after 20-30minutes it just no longer appeals.
If you want classic games, there's plenty of emulators.

As for me, these games are good for nostalgia now. Compared to what I expect from games it's difficult to enjoy them wanting to have modern graphics, and the social aspect our games now have.

Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 10:08
I absolutely can't wait until the Wii VC has some good Commodore 64 games that were promised. Mmmmm......

Jimmy
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 10:34
Quote: "Why cant ppl be as enthusiastic over computers as they where in the 80s"


The only person that was interested in computers in the 80s was Matthew Broderick.

Serenity now...

"Oh hey, nice website Jimmy, it's really nice and fancy." -- That C++ Nerd
Visit. Website. NOW!
Manic
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 11:21
it's called convergence, and it's a good thing. You don't get asked what you want from a computer now-a-days because
a) they can already do everything
b) Everyone wants to do the same thing
c) It's only a question of how fast you want to do them

Also, I was actually alive in the 80's (altho only for 6 years of them), it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

don't romanticise bygone eras, it's rediculous. I used to think the 60's were sooooo cool, and then I realised, that despite the "peace and love" and "we can change the world" rhetoric, most were too naive and too high to do anything about it.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 11:36
The '80s were actually a great time to be young in. Think of all the home computer technology we have now, and how young children are just born into it. Now imagine watching all of that evolve. You can't emulate that with computers again. Something else will come along with the same Wow factor for a new generation.

I guess it's very like watching cars or the space age begin, except it's accessible to almost everyone in the Western world.

Commodore kid
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 17:30 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 15:23
very interesting points i agree with them all. i suppose its just the fact that i have missed out seeing all of this technology unfold infront of me and the fact that the 80s looks so cool.i want to be the 80s hacker who got into the database of sum facist corperations coputers thru my commodore 64 with a crude acoustic line modem. back then you had to have at least half a brain to operate a compuer now anyone can do it so its just kinda lost its shine in a way.

I thought it was funny to offend other people's beliefs in my sig.
Dazzag
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 18:41 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 18:42
Think of it this way : If you had been around in the 80's and had enough noggin and get up and go to do it, then you could code a best selling game on your own, in your bedroom, with minimal experience and artistic skills, while still in school. Then go on to become pretty rich, and a legend in the industry.

And then lose it all and live in some kind of hippy state in a commune thingy somewhere in Europe for most of a decade or two before discovering you are like the Mark Hamill of gaming (like a God, but no-one's seen you in a few decades).

At least that's what happened to Matthew Smith (if I remember rightly).

Fast forward to today... hmmmm. Suppose still a small chance on mobile phones...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 20:08
I still miss the simplicity of the old Atari BASIC sound function. I think it had three parameters: frequency, duration and distortion. When I got into DarkBASIC I fully expected simple sound support to have moved on just as image processing has. Well, it hasn't.
Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 21:44
@Commodore kid - You'd probably enjoy WarGames if you're into ol' 80s hacking.

Commodore kid
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:30
still trying to find it on dvd lol that and tron

Dam no loo roll left!
Where's the bible?
vorconan
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:37 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 00:37
Quote: "Think of it this way : If you had been around in the 80's and had enough noggin and get up and go to do it, then you could code a best selling game on your own, in your bedroom, with minimal experience and artistic skills, while still in school. Then go on to become pretty rich, and a legend in the industry."


Yeah, very true. You can't create a next-gen game anymore being an indie developer, that really gets to me, by the time you create all the graphics and code all the game, the new consoles are out, the xbox 360 drained all hope out of my game developing spirit when it came out, I know I can never create graphics that good on my own with a small budget and timescale.


Commodore kid
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:45
to be a young neard in the 80s the things dreams are made of. although i hear the style of music is cuming back summing to do with sum kind of cycle anyway i hope they bring back new romantic the style and the music its sooo cool lol plus u get to experament with make up.

Dam no loo roll left!
Where's the bible?
Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:50
Yah I love that old chip music too. I have LSDJ on an old GameBoy, which is a fairly good sequencer which you can use to create songs. Also I had a great C64 sequencer back in the day, but forgot the name of it.

Commodore kid
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:55
u gotta love that sid chip

Dam no loo roll left!
Where's the bible?
Commodore kid
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:02 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 15:21
anyone seen electric dreams? that guy was so lucky shame he made his computer kill its self. nasty evil man.!!

Slow Programmer
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 03:15
What I can't figure out is why my C64 only took about ten seconds to turn on and be ready to use. Now, twenty years later, it takes 5 minutes for my computer to turn on and become stable. Of course we didn't have all the bloatware on the C64 that are standard on todays operating systems. I have to admit that I miss the old days
Adam_db
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 03:25
You think Bill Gates doesnt have the perfect OS, that takes 10 seconds to load like the old commodore 64, and never gets a virus (like linux)! of course he does! he just releases inferior versions of everything so he can make money off updates!

independent games are constantly being developed. i think its just nostalgia that gets us. im only 25 years old, but when i heard SEUCK mentioned earlier on this thread, it reminded me of what i liked in a game back then. the DEV kits.

and nowadays Dev kits can see us making the kind of games we want to play with much more ease and variation. i remember spending hours upon hours on Deluxe Paint, or Balderdash's limited game builder, and it seems to me like, we're better off now, than we were then... At least if you are like me that is, and relish in developing stuff.

----------------------------------------------------
Just because they are paranoid, doesnt mean they arent out to get you.
Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 03:50 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 03:51
Quote: "You think Bill Gates doesnt have the perfect OS, that takes 10 seconds to load like the old commodore 64, and never gets a virus (like linux)! of course he does! he just releases inferior versions of everything so he can make money off updates!"


Um no, that's not even possible

Quote: "and nowadays Dev kits can see us making the kind of games we want to play with much more ease and variation."


And again, I disagree. Dev kits are better today then they were for last gen, but it doesn't makes games easier to make then before. Games nowadays have hundreds of times the complexity of the old C64 games.

Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 03:51
Quote: "Um no, that's not even possible "

I think (hope) he was joking?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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TDK
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 06:50
Quote: "At least that's what happened to Matthew Smith (if I remember rightly)."


And the hairy yak! (Jeff Minter). Anyone remember Colourspace and Trip-o-Tron? I still have both of them and an original copy of Merak - The Video which I bought off him when working at an Atari show in Alexander Palace round about 1983.

At the time, I was there selling the educational software I wrote for the Atari ST. Even sold a copy to Brian May for his son who must have been around six or seven at the time from what I remember.

Got to meet some really interesting people in the aftershow parties back then...

On one occasion, we got an invite from Atari UK boss Les Player to the big Atari bash which was held on one of those big party boats which went up and down the Thames. I don't actually remember a lot because Captain Sensible got me completely and utterly rat-arsed.

He was there as the star turn - and because he was a big Atari ST fan - he used them to create all his music at the time.

Whenever I hear Happy Talk, it always reminds me of him at the back of the boat doing a very intoxicated rendition of it and nearly falling overboard!

Happy days...

TDK_Man

indi
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 09:06
there is about 100 native linux virii in the marketplace as we speak.
not sure where you get your info adumb

heartbone
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 09:33
I still have an old pre hi-fi stereo VHS tape of a Colorspace concert that I performed for a group of Atarians in 1986.

It was a slick way to get virgin ears to sit through Close to the Edge.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
Manic
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 11:35
Quote: "Quote: "You think Bill Gates doesnt have the perfect OS, that takes 10 seconds to load like the old commodore 64, and never gets a virus (like linux)! of course he does! he just releases inferior versions of everything so he can make money off updates!"

Um no, that's not even possible "


http://www.unwords.com/unword/sarchasm.html

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 16:07
Look at it this way ... in the 80s your computer would boot and be ready for use in a few seconds. But loading a game/app from tape could take almost 5 *minutes*

In the 00s booting your computer ready for use can take perhaps a minute or two (depending how much stuff you pre-load), but your applications mostly start within a few seconds.

Now.. which would you prefer?

And let's not even start on multi-tasking.

Never trust a computer you can't throw out of a window
Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 16:18
Quote: "But loading a game/app from tape could take almost 5 *minutes*"
Lucky you. I remember Neverending story 128k used to take like quarter of an hour. Neverending loader more like Thanked the Gods when the Amiga and ST came along (ignore +3 as it was too little too late and the Sam Coupe was non-existant) and reduced loading time to a mere 10 to 30 seconds. Perhaps a minute or so on multi-disk games...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Van B
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 16:30
Loading games from tape was always a pain, but it didn't seem to matter much at the time, made you want to play the game longer because it took so long to load, in some cases you were glad that it loaded at all!.

One thing about the Speccy, it made cassette player engineers out of so many kids it's unbelievable, some of the things you had to do besides messing with head alignments. I remember my uncles C64, on some games they wouldn't load unless you switched the TV off first!.

BRRRRRRRRR-PIP
BRRRRRRRRR-PIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIP
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-PEEP
BRRRRRRR...

Tape loading error.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Chris K
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 17:26
Quote: "Think of it this way : If you had been around in the 80's and had enough noggin and get up and go to do it, then you could code a best selling game on your own, in your bedroom, with minimal experience and artistic skills, while still in school. Then go on to become pretty rich, and a legend in the industry.

And then lose it all and live in some kind of hippy state in a commune thingy somewhere in Europe for most of a decade or two before discovering you are like the Mark Hamill of gaming (like a God, but no-one's seen you in a few decades)."


That's pretty much what happened to Ian Bell as well.

I remember reading that Peter Molyneux's first game sold three copies, all to his mother.

Don't you love the 'Making Of' articles at the end of Edge, they are often about some random ZX game. A completely different world eh.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 17:40
Be careful of romantising too much about the past. It was no easier back then than it is now IMHO. Sure, killer games could be made in bedrooms by single people - but it still took talent and skill to do it. It wasn't that loads of people were getting rich by releasing crap, they were getting rich by creating incredible games, games that defined new genres, or were stacked with gameplay and design that made them so popular.

Today is a different world, sure, but the one thing that has remained constant is that it takes real skill to make a good game these days - and it did back then too.

Talented people are talented people, no matter what decade they are born in.

Never trust a computer you can't throw out of a window
adr
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 17:42
Quote: "I remember reading that Peter Molyneux's first game sold three copies, all to his mother."

Every time I see Peter Molyneux's name, the Syndicate music pops into my head.... the "combat" music, when an enemy agent's near.

[selected]


Re: Original post
Quote: "why cant we have a bit of a choice like in the 80s walk into a computer shop then and they ask me what i want from a computer. "


Err... there were a lot of choices, but they all did the same thing largely. Manufacturers were jumping on a new market hoping that their standard would be "the one". Having a dozen different architectures to achieve the same result didn't do anyone any favours....


I'm superfly TNT
Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 17:56
To be honest, I couldn't give a monkies about hardware. The only thing I think is worth getting excited about hardware-wise are peripherals. I couldnt give a toss about floppies, cassettes, HDs, flash memory, blue ray, etc etc. It's just data storage of different speeds and sizes. Same with CPUs - just processors of different speeds. GFX cards perhaps a little bit, as shaders are allowing more interests effects, but at the end of the day, it all outputs onto a flat 2D screen.

C64s, Amigas, PCs, Macs, couldn't give a flying saucer! They're all just chipsets that eventually output an image to a 2D screen and can potentially output exactly the same thing.

If you want excitement from "computers" you have to look past the crap sitting on your desktop and look at the more extreme things like robotics, virtual reality, these crazy new input devices (e.g. wii controller, or those touch screen virtual table things), 3D holographics etc. Thats where computing excitement lies, imo. Not in DX10 looking a bit prettier than DX9. *yawnage*

Just my 2 cents!


Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 18:01
Quote: "it made cassette player engineers out of so many kids it's unbelievable"
True. I remember Bubble Bobble would not load on any of my decks (always good to have at least 2). But it was one of those new multiloaders and didn't need to be restarted if something went wrong (just rewind the one bit and try again). You knew if that segment had loaded correctly because the counter in the corner would increase. To get it to load took about an hour of swapping between 3 different decks and changing each ones tone and volume all over the place until it finally worked. Good game though.

Quote: "but it still took talent and skill to do it"
True, but I only partly agree with what you are saying. The actual task of getting anything at all resembling a game was the really hard bit, but if you were clever enough and had good ideas then all you needed was some simple 2D. I mean didn't Smith write Manic Miner (massive best seller and infamous in spectrum games - and there are thousands) in 3 weeks? And he was a school kid I believe. Nowadays you can be the best programmer in the world (lot easier than it was then that bit), but you won't get anywhere in the commercial game world (on your own) without also having amazing 3D talent, and probably top notch 2D skills. Not to mention the music, game ideas being done to death, and level design.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 18:05
Quote: "more extreme things like robotics"
I dunno. I did Robotics in University and it was pretty boring. We had one of those Puma robots (car making robots). Was alright (used PumaBASIC I believe), but hardly rocked my world. Too much positioning setup and stuff.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 18:27
Quote: "The actual task of getting anything at all resembling a game was the really hard bit, but if you were clever enough and had good ideas then all you needed was some simple 2D."


That's my point - there was nothing "simple" about it. It took seriously mad skills to know your hardware inside out, eeking every last possible bit of speed from a chipset that was never designed to cope with it. Literally breaking new programming frontiers or creating effects that had never been seen before took talent and vision.

Writing Elite (especially in the limited amount of memory they had), took some really clever math skills, and really logical brains! Those kind of skills are what set people apart today. It didn't take any less brain power back them to write a killer title just because it was in 2D, if anything I'd say it took more.

The whole "single person, single game" was out of the window by the 90s. Most of the top 16-bit games were created by teams of people. The need for a quality musician, artist, etc isn't a requirement of the games industry *today*. It's been a requirement for decades.

There are exceptions to all rules of course - even today a single developer (or small team of developers) can create a stunning game with mass critical and commercial success. We see it time and again, and that will never change. Not even when we've got ultra photo realistic shooters displayed across our living-room walls, there will always be someone who bucks the trend, and long may they.

In summary all I'm saying is don't under-estimate the kind of aptitude and skill it took to be a success back then. Some of it was timing, having the right idea in the right place, but it nearly all relied on having the skill in the first place. And talent is a constant; a requirement for success regardless of the era.

Never trust a computer you can't throw out of a window
Van B
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 18:31
Matt Smith is probably the best example of an old school bedroom coder, I mean Manic Miner was, and is incredible, he appeared on Blue Peter, I think he was 13 then, awkward chubby geek type. I still play Manic Miner to this day, on the DS - it's funny how that damn telephone level still gets me!.

I tried to get that multiplayer Jet Set Willy working to no avail, I played that a lot too, but never got very far - I always regarded that game as a kind of exploring game, a lot of fun but no chance of me ever finishing it. Wouldn't it be great if Matt made a Live version of JSW for the 360 .

Matt Smith and Jeff Minter are a great inspiration, especially Jeff who's still cranking out quality software after all this time - can't wait for Space Giraffe.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 18:45
Quote: "Writing Elite (especially in the limited amount of memory they had), took some really clever math skills"
True, but for early games such as Manic Miner (which is what we are talking about really) then yes it took some advanced noggin to get the code working, but once they got the hang of that then you could still make a best seller on your own, from your bedroom, with pretty much no artistic qualities. In a few weeks (and not even full time). I'm not under estimating the skill that was required just that these days you need a lot wider skill set to do things on your own, and much more time.

You cannot deny that top selling games were created by kids on their own with a few weeks of development. There is hardly any chance at all of that happening now. I suppose mobile phones are the closest you can get, but with the massive amount of software available (not as if all you have available is what is in the local small games shop) and with advances in mobile games coming on like no tomorrow, then even that is looking less and less likely to get a "best seller".

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 18:55
Quote: "Be careful of romantising too much about the past. It was no easier back then than it is now IMHO"


Couldn't agree more.

I remember writing about 3 simple puzzle/game programs that actually did anything on the old Atari 800XL. To achieve anything like acceptable speed you had to write and call machine code subroutines - very time-consuming!

I think it was just as much fun and just as difficult then as it is now - it's just the details that are different.
Chris K
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 19:43
Although it took a lot of talent to make Elite, it was definitely easier to make a hit game back then. As in, not a quirky indie/freeware title, but a #1 selling straight up masterpiece.

Think about it this way, if they could still make million selling games by themselves, why have David Braben and Peter Molyneux now got 100 strong teams working for years to realise their visions?

That is the only way to make an actual #1 commercial game.

I honestly think it will come full circle though, once we hit photo realism, or near photo realism, the relentless technology advancement will finally halt, and middleware will catch up.

It will only take a few more years for DBPro (or whatever) to catch up at DX15, then eventually someone will make a freeware Facegen that makes fully realistic faces, then there will be perfect lipsync and voice generation software, and people will be able to go back to just typing out their dialogue...

The only alternative to having a huge team at the moment, is making highly polished simple games, luckily there is a market for that as well as regular games. That's what Jeff Minter seems to have done, stuck to the lone coder template, and accepted he can't make blockbusters any more.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 20:05
Quote: "Think about it this way, if they could still make million selling games by themselves, why have David Braben and Peter Molyneux now got 100 strong teams working for years to realise their visions?"


Because they and the style of games they want to create evolved. That doesn't mean the void they've left behind doesn't still exist, and isn't being filled by very small teams of developers.

Look at PopCap when they started out - a simple game, a simple idea, and it made them *millions*. Look at Introversion, their games shift hundreds of thousands of units each year via Steam. We're talking seriously big numbers, the kind of numbers EA, Ubisoft, etc dream of their AAA titles hitting. Yet these guys do it on a regular basis.

I see the "casual games" market (horrible phrase) being the void that the major studios left as they moved into Hollywood territory Which would explain why a lot of them are now trying to get back into it again! because there is *serious* amounts of money there, being made by small teams, with good ideas

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Chris K
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 20:23
But I think the reason people don't want to make casual games, is simply that - they don't want to make them, the money available doesn't come into it. Lionhead or Frontier could probably make 10x the profit if they split up into 10 teams of 10, each working on a casual game - they'd put out a hundred a year!

The thing is they want to push the envelope, that's what all luminaries want to do - it's what those guys did in 1987 and it's what they're doing in 2007, the difference is what it takes to achieve that.

If I could grab 20 year old Braben through time, and say "Look, it's 2007, the seventh generation of consoles - theses are the tools at your disposal, go and make a game by yourself that will have a similiar effect to Elite had in 1984".

It can't be done, until middleware catches up

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 21:32
Quote: "the money available doesn't come into it."


You said "That is the only way to make an actual #1 commercial game.", I was just proving that commercially successful games can be made by anyone, small teams or giant studios, even still today.

Quote: "If I could grab 20 year old Braben through time, and say "Look, it's 2007, the seventh generation of consoles - theses are the tools at your disposal, go and make a game by yourself that will have a similiar effect to Elite had in 1984"."


Very good point, and I agree totally. But it works the other way around too - take the *vast majority* of game devs back to 1987, say "here, make a new genre that will persist for decades, these are the crappy tools you have available" and I bet very very few of them could do it.

Which brings me right back around to my original point - talent is talent, and it is not restricted by the time in which you live.

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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 02:55
In those days you had to write good, compact code because of memory and speed limits of the hardware. Now there is so much speed and memory on even a cheap system that you can write pure trash and make it run. I think we are losing something in that.

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