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Geek Culture / Check this out! PS3 living graphics!

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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 03:41
http://www.psu.com/4D-Graphics--A-Reality-Only-For-PlayStation-3--a1063-p1.php

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Pixelator
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 03:54
sweet, but does that mean only really good computers can run games that use LOTS of procedural stuff?

<img>http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/568c9112ad1fcf7594a1400e0901d13d6g.jpg</img>
Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 04:26
not sure? Spore is procedural (as you know) so I'm guessing it'd be OK

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Kentaree
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 04:39
Pure and utter bulls***. Sceners have been using procedural graphics on PCs for years

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 05:45 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 06:19
Quote: "Pure and utter bulls***. Sceners have been using procedural graphics on PCs for years"


Seconded and raised a "most biased PS3 hype-crap article ever award". Sorry but their entire argument behind this is that because of the design of the Playstation 3 processor, this is why the "Bayou" tech demo .. which btw is using a modified version of the Unreal 3 engine, the same engine that powered Gears of War and Unreal Tournament 2008 the latter of which was shown off on both consoles and while running at 60+fps @ 720p on the 360, only managed a meager 27fps @ 720p on the PS3.

Now yes that can be attributed to that Epic didn't fully understand the hardware for the PS3, but frankly it isn't rocket science.

Xbox 360 3.2GHz 3x 64bit PPC with 6 Hardware Processing Threads and 3x 128-bit VMX.

Playstation 3 3.2GHz 1x 64bit PPC with 2 Hardware Processing Threads and 7x 128-bit VMX (snazzily renamed SPE because the controller can manage the memory across networked machines.. big freaking whoop, who the hell is going to be using more than one and why would you need that much floating-point processing power?)

Realistically speaking the 360 processor not only is easier to push further but also has higher processing capabilities period.

So the argument that given they're procedurally generating using the processor (which to me is boarderline retarded, especially given the design of the PS3 means they have to not only degredate colour quality but also limit how much can be done per-scene due to memory restrictions and bus latency) just doesn't hold up given it is just as possible to achieve the same tech demo probably rendering quicker on the 360 if it is to be believed it is an entirely Processor based solution that is handed over to the Shader Core.

Now if they had said that it was being done purely on the GPU, then there is a little more merit there that it might not render as quickly on the 360 given the performance difference between the two gpus provided of course that the video drivers are actually capable of unlocking the potencial of the gpu, which tbh I highly doubt. The RSX certainly as hell doesn't have the Image Quality and same shader performance between smaller branched programs and the longer all-in-one models nvidia really reval in.

Lastly, procedural textures aren't new. Layering them is relatively new in game terms to have multiple combined shaders interacting well frankly that is Shader 3.0 territory which up until recently the 360 has actually lacked full support for (mainly due to microsoft ineptitude in the matter), yet with it.. there is no reason you won't be seeing these things now migrating in to games more readily. Apart from anything else it saves quite a bit of time for the artists.

Spore as mentioned above is an entirely procedural title, with the exception of the building blocks the rest is just rule based procedurally created in-engine. A title which is eventually destined for the 360, and Playstation 3. So that really makes their entire article fall down right there.

If this "4D" graphics as they seem to coin it (which is not the term currently used by others who are actually making games with this sort of technology base) is something special only the PS3 can do, then I'd love to hear the developers themselves explain to me why.

Personally I would bet the answer from them would be "we only develop FOR the PS3".

The actual technology and what they've achieved with it is quite amazing mind, but realistically it could be made on the 360 as well. Hell Perfect Dark Zero used procedural textures for near enough everything world-based, simply because development needed to be cut-short.

This really is just another example of why you shouldn't believe everything you read online. Or rather not take it at face value all the time.

[edit] Been checking out the website of the company have made the technology behind this, and I can safely say that the article was written by a retarded monkey.

Check Here to find out why...

Krilik
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 07:05 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 07:09
That article was stolen and retitled. The person who posted it on that Playstation site didn't even write it in the first place. All he did was change the article title.

Edit: Nevermind. I thought it was the same article I read. Looks like he read the one I read and misreported it again. The original article just referred to the Playstation 3 because Sony used the term 4D in one of their ad campaigns and the article was stated how Sony wasn't "too far off". Then they sited the procedural information that article has.
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 08:11
Wow, have you ever written a post of less than 200 words Raven?


Chris K
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 14:50
Riiiiiiiiddge RAAAAaaaaacer.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 15:05
Quote: "Wow, have you ever written a post of less than 200 words Raven?"


That's being too nice, I was wondering if he's ever written anything less than 500 words.

But yes, the whole procedural thing, I was thinking, the graphics look lovely but procedurals aren't anything new as I was watching it as its effects have been possible. As for 4D - I don't see how that justifies calling it 4D, I always though 4D was those hi-tech Imax cinemas where it actually feels like you're in the environment (though I've never been in one).

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Kentaree
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 15:24
The 4th dimension is often named as time, and I've never seen a game that doesn't take time to play

Van B
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 16:55
Wow, one day maybe we'll be able to watch paint dry on the PS3 - besides some survival horror game I'm not sure how useful this effect is. I mean do we care if textures get old and worn, when are we even gonna see this happen. A nice little effect in a tech demo and it's blown out of proportion as per usual .

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vibe runner
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 16:55
But the third dimention is space; and space and time are so closely linked it's called spacetime.

Or is it?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 17:14
I think it is quite interesting really. It's not all about things getting old really, it's about texture metamorphosis. Cars can get dirty during a race, or you could have fingerprints on items, and actually use the fingerprints as a clue in a game.. or other ideas similar. I like the rain splatter, its very realistic. 4D seems like an optimistic title, but at least it's easy to remember. I like the Sony Ps3, and it is getting quite cheap now. I have mine plugged into a 50in HD tv, and it looks great. Everything is upscaled to 1080 res, same with my computer, but the computer does not upscale as well as the PS3. Currently, the PS3 upscaling is considered the best HD upscaling available, even compared to £1000 Blu Ray players, and top of the range HD-DVD players.

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 17:17
Quote: "I have mine plugged into a 50in HD tv, and it looks great. Everything is upscaled to 1080 res, same with my computer, but the computer does not upscale as well as the PS3. Currently, the PS3 upscaling is considered the best HD upscaling available, even compared to £1000 Blu Ray players, and top of the range HD-DVD players."


Where the hell have you been shopping?! PC World?

Chris K
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 17:57
Ok, some people seem to be under the impression this actually has anything to do with the PS3...

It doesn't.

It was written by some idiot fanboy who stumbled across the videos, the same technology is also possible on 360 and PC.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:11
Hehe Ps3 fanboys. I remember a ps3 fanboy making the ps3 song(which is great and it shows the pure facts against Ps3) on one bit it says
Quote: "don't make it as fun as xbox live"
but he made say
Quote: "don't make it as fun as "PS3""


Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:35 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 18:45
It didn't pass my notice that this is on a Playstation site, but so what? It looks cool, they're bigging up a unique feature of their console, it's called marketing.

Quote: "Sceners have been using procedural graphics on PCs for years"

Yes, but apparently PS3 is the only console that can do this in real time.

Quote: "I mean do we care if textures get old and worn, when are we even gonna see this happen."

I don't know a lot about this but here's how I see it being used:
Say that you are playing a GTA style game and your character gets shot, his clothing will now have a bullet hole in it and blood will slowly spread out over his clothes! That would be an awesome effect

[EDIT]
Sorry XBox fan boys, I can't find anything saying that this is possible on XBox, only XBox fans saying "who really cares" or "isn't the 4th dimension time?"

So are our DB programs just pretending to move through time? I don't understand what makes this technique 4D and a cube moving on the screen not 4D.

In programming, nothing exists
Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:42 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 18:43
XBox 360 and PC and do this real-time. Thats how Gears of War was made the rain and stuff was done in real time, same with ragdoll physics and all that.
look http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/cascade_new.jpg And Yes that is a demo of particles but is also what was used with the kryll.
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/SoftShadows.jpg
Real Time lighting and soft-shadows.
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/Groundfog1.jpg
real time fog.

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:50 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 18:52
@Deathead
Can you find anything about procedural texturing for XBOX?
I can't believe that a Microsoft machine wouldn't be able to match a PC in graphics, I thought that was the whole point of them making a console?

[edit]
I like the stained glass window pic
Everything looks like it's made out of clay on XBox, which I quite like.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:52 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 18:52
What the hell is Procedural?

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:53 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 19:05
look at the spore videos and that'll explain better than I can
but basically () procedural things work using a set of rules, then as the program runs it applies these rules in steps to create animations or textures etc
That way everything takes up less memory as it is just a set of rules not a media file.

If you look at the bathroom video; there is only one texture being used (the clean texture), then using procedural rules the textures "organically" age.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:00
Quote: "who the hell is going to be using more than one and why would you need that much floating-point processing power?"

Someone who wants to make 4D graphics.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:04
Quote: "Someone who wants to make 4D graphics.
"

You can't make 4-D. Literally you can't its unreach-able! We are really living in the fourth dimension.4-D means if you are drinking a drink you can taste it. You could feel water if you feel water. Feel the bullets pain. And all that.

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:11 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 19:24
Huh? what does feeling have to do with graphics?
But to take your water example; if your character swam in water he would get wet and even his texture would change, and not just to a ready made "wet" texture, but the exact parts of his body that entered the water would become wet.
I think that's what they mean by 4D.

@Whoever said it
The Sims doesn't use procedural texturing; yes things do get dirty but that's because there are 3 or 4 textures, each dirtier than the last.
I don't think people quite understand what is happening here. If anyone has The Godfather game then get in a car and skid to make a skidmark, now get out and crouch and look at the skidmark, you will see that it is a plain above the road. With 4D the skidmark would become part of the road's texture, it would affect each pixel depending on the rules that have been set for skidmarks.

@Raven
Can you post a direct link to what you were talking about, I couldn't find it on the website you linked to.

[edit]
Is this what you were talking about?
Quote: "http://www.profxengine.com/index.php?PAGE=PRODUCTION"

Quote: "As an example, the 73 full materials (about 200 maps: diffuse, specular, normal, etc.) of the first level, representing 80MB of DXT compressed content, are being generated in 4 seconds at load-time. The ProFX description file weighs only 280KB! "

The PS3 article says that XBox can do procedural textures, just not in real-time, and this doesn't disprove that as it says "at load-time". If this isn't the page that you were talking about then ignore this.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:26
You can't have 4-d graphics this is what I'm trying to tell you. Graphics will always be 3-D because 3-d means you can go around the object.

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:35
Quote: "The PS3 article says that XBox can do procedural textures, just not in real-time, and this doesn't disprove that as it says "at load-time". If this isn't the page that you were talking about then ignore this."


Bull****!
You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
That site notes how long it took to generate the maps from the compressed system (i.e. how long the data takes to commit to memory for loading times), this doesn't mean they're not possible in real-time.

Currently the only game that fully utilises this technology is RoboBlitz, which funnily enough is an XBOX 360 ARCADE title.
There is a version that will be (or might be already) available for the PC, with no PS3 version planned.

I'm not saying the PS3 can't do this, but claiming it's the only one that can do this stuff real-time is a total steaming pile of poo!

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:36 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 19:40
This is entirely procedural and could be used on XBox360 or PS3
Awesome
Fire Escape
That was supposed to be a thumbnail

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Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:41
Quote: "Wow, one day maybe we'll be able to watch paint dry on the PS3"

Come on now, be sensible.

... You can film it, put it on a DVD, and watch it on the PS3.

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Chris K
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:43
There's a game on XBLA, I think it's called RoboBlitz that is entirely procedural.

It came out when the download limit on XBLA was 64MB. All it's textures, normal maps etc are procedurally generated.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:45
Quote: "Come on now, be sensible.

... You can film it, put it on a DVD, and watch it on the PS3. "

Lol. Maybe we could see someone eat a burger on ps3.lol

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 19:46 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 19:49
@Raven
I don't see what you're getting worked up about? Maybe they are lying that PS3 is the only one that can do this in real-time, as there doesn't seem to be any proof either way, we'll just have to wait.

Quote: "There's a game on XBLA, I think it's called RoboBlitz that is entirely procedural.

It came out when the download limit on XBLA was 64MB. All it's textures, normal maps etc are procedurally generated."

Yeah that's what I posted, but everything is produced in load-time.
Load-time means before the main loop doesn't it?

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Chris K
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 20:02
Are you suggesting that the PS3 is the only system in the world than can describe something in code rather than with an image?

I'm not sure you fully understand what you are talking about, it seems kind of like you are a PS3 fan and/or owner and you got excited when you saw something that you were told set the PS3 apart from it's competitors.

Any system can do 'procedural textures', whether that means it generates the images before hand, or outputs the pixels at run time (like a shader).

I mean, any shader can be called a 'procedural texture', like a Fresnel Water shader, you are texturing a plane with a texture that is generated every frame...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 20:10
Quote: "it seems kind of like you are a PS3 fan"

pfft, can everyone stop using this phrase as it is pathetic and childish.
Look at my last post, I just said there doesn't seem to be any proof either way.

I admit I don't fully understand procedural texturing, I never said I did, I was just trying to explain the theory of what happens, I don't know how demanding this is on hardware.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 20:13
okay PS3 fanboy

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 20:24
Quote: "I admit I don't fully understand procedural texturing, I never said I did, I was just trying to explain the theory of what happens, I don't know how demanding this is on hardware."


You don't understand it at all, and the fact you're trying to tell us (some of us who not only know, understand but also use this technology on a daily basis) how the hell it works and why only the PS3 can do it from a BS article.

Either learn what you're talking about or shut up.

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 21:10 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 21:15
You don't read my posts do you?
I said that maybe it is lying and I said I can't explain procedural programming so I said to watch the spore videos.
I have no idea what knowledge you have on this so I was just trying to explain the idea as I understand it. When someone says "What the hell is procedural" I tend to assume they know nothing about it.

I didn't write the article

You can't have a hissy fit because my explanation may not have been right, no one gave an alternative, someone posted about shaders and stuff which was quite interesting but that's all. If I am wrong then please tell me how I am wrong so I can learn, don't just start calling me names.

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jasonhtml
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 21:20
procedural textures have been out for a LONG time

Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 21:21
And I guess you forgot about the 4-D chat...
Quote: "You can't have 4-d graphics this is what I'm trying to tell you. Graphics will always be 3-D because 3-d means you can go around the object.
"


Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 21:43 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 21:45
Well I posted this before you posted that.
Quote: "So are our DB programs just pretending to move through time? I don't understand what makes this technique 4D and a cube moving on the screen not 4D."

If the 4th dimension is time then my understanding is that 3D is a dead world, but with moving things it becomes 4D. I don't really understand the 4D thing.

Quote: "procedural textures have been out for a LONG time"

I know that but I don't think they've been on consoles before and certainly not in real time.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 21:55
OMG! OBese don't you ever listen to me! 3-D isn't a dead world. 4-d will never ever happen! 3-d is a object which you can see every angle! 4-d will not be more than 3-d, water is 3d because you can view it from different angles! Same with every single object in the world. If 4D will be made it will be feelings like smells, taste, sight etc. All of our senses in a 3-d world, 2d is a manufactured substance. You'll never see 2-d in your life, unless it was manufactured. Paper believe it or not is 3d.

Freddy 007
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 22:03
Quote: "4D will be made it will be feelings like smells, taste, sight etc."


Quote: "Paper believe it or not is 3d."


I see a contradiction here. I know for a fact that paper has a flavour(not a good one though), so it must be 4d, right?

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 22:05
@Deathead
I did listen but that doesn't make any sense, how can senses be part of a dimension?
I will try and explain my idea more and see if this is what you mean.
I think the difference between 3D and 4D is that 4D is actually affected by time; a moving cube in 3D isn't actually moving, it is just being re-drawn in a new position. So are you saying that 4D is impossible because for the cube to actually move in time it would have to be real?
My head hurts

@Raven
I have some apologising, I must have skipped the first half of your first post because you actually did explain it and show why this article is a lie.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 22:20
Quote: "I see a contradiction here. I know for a fact that paper has a flavour(not a good one though), so it must be 4d, right?
"

Believe it or not your right. But I'm trying to say that you'll never see a 2d object in your life.

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 22:50
Quote: "you'll never see a 2d object in your life"

Unless it's on a computer screen or a piece of paper, but then it wouldn't exist. lol dimensions are weird.

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 22:58
Quote: "piece of paper"
That is 4-d.
Quote: "computer screen "
That means it is a generated 2d shape. Not a 2-d shape.

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 23:10
i think you guys need a better understanding of what Dimensions are.. because you obviously are lacking in the basic understanding.

1D = Height (Basically any single figure with a variable size is a single dimension)
2D = Height x Width
3D = Height x Width x Depth
4D = Height x Width x Depth x Scalar (this is also known as Space-Time, where you provide a descriptor for something that alters it's state over time. for example let's say you had a Vector of 1.0, 1.0, 1.0, 2.0; this would mean that over time the positional 3D aspect of the vector would be doubled.. atleast in it's simplist form of Space-Time)

I'm not going to go higher than 4D, because well one the article was mentioning it... two I really don't want to try to explain all 11, as if you have a problem grasping the first 4 then 5D would just make your brains exploded.

As far as the whole think about Dimensions goes.
Let's say you have just moved a peice of paper with a 5 written on it.

1D = 5
2D = the image of 5
3D = the paper and environment
4D = the description of the movement of your peice of paper

There is no way to physically see the 4th Dimension as it's actions or reactions more than much else. So the highest level of Dimensions you can physically perceive is 3D, where something has depth.. however this isn't to say that games haven't been using 4D, because as I said it's actions.

Anything that moves, changes, or even the fact that you can play them is the simple case that it is running in 4D simply by running.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2007 01:11
A lot of arguments about the 4D name, but actually we accept 3D games, but they are not 3D either.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2007 01:37
Quote: "Unless it's on a computer screen or a piece of paper, but then it wouldn't exist. lol"


Nope...there would still be a 3rd dimension - the pencil markings on the bit of paper will have depth, even if it's so little depth it seems 2D...it still has its 3rd Dimension. Same principle applies to screens - there is some depth.

As for 4D...how do 4 dimension exist in a 3 dimensional world - 4D cinema is an expression for it's capabilities as an expression it adds 'another dimension' to the cinema experience. But really, come on the senses as another dimension? No that's just Chemistry and something quite advanced our bodies have. Our nerves of what we touch or taste buds with taste send a message to our brain like this keyboard is sending message to my CPU to process it. It's not another dimension. With time...that's a really tricky one - as it lies only as a theory for a 4th dimension - heck one might say does time really exist? It could be an illusion we base thing upon...Who knows, as with the other 3 dimensions, there's physical matter to take up that space, with a box you could say its width is 30 cm, its height as 40cm and its depth as 50cm but is there anything about it that empirically that suggests that it has the dimension of 'time'? Other than this logic/concept in the human mind that it exists. Besides space and time are two different things, so how come it's called the 4th dimension when the other 3 are used as measurements of space. I mean yes we measure what appears to be time, but we measure temperature too.


Uh kind of got a bit weird there - I probably actually just started a new debate and I'll know I'll get contradictions because what I was saying is a difficult thing to put across, but even then everybody sees things differently.

I shot the sheriff
Chris K
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 3rd Sep 2007 01:37
Well, yeah but they look 3D...

AFAIK can see PS3 games don't look 4D...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
jasonhtml
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Location: OC, California, USA
Posted: 3rd Sep 2007 01:42
taste and smell have nothing to do with the 4th dimension! where did you get that idea?

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