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Geek Culture / Another Y2K Problem?

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mamaji4
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 15:29
Quote: "I mean, the same process would "work" if I originally assumed that a + b = c or c = a - b... both of which are blatantly wrong.
"


If you draw a line segment of length a and another line segment of length b, starting at the end of the first line segment, you would have a line segment c of length a + b = c
In which case you would be permitted to use the equation a + b = c to arrive at any further conclusions w.r.t. to the straight line, not the right angled triangle. Of course you will blatantly wrong if you use this equation in the Pythogoras theorem.
mamaji4
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 15:31
Quote: "But you said you got 800/800 in GRE, don't you take that when you leave high school?
"


You win, I lose again Chris
Chris K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 15:41
OK, well then if you are still at high school perhaps you should just accept that you just haven't quite grasped some important things, and that they will become clear when you learn some more stuff.

I mean, everything I've said is definitely right, I know you can't see that at the moment but I absolutely promise it is true.

It's much more important to have an absolutely clear understanding of a small number of simple things, than skim a vague understanding of lots of things.

Why don't you take your proof about infinity to your teacher and ask them to explain some of the problems with it, or better yet go through it yourself being your own worst enemy, trying to poke holes in it.

What you absolutely shouldn't do is lie about test scores, refuse to accept critism of your maths and generally try and bluff a greater ability than you have.

If you want help or clarification on anything then there are loads of people on the forum who will help you out.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
mamaji4
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 15:51
I could answer to all that but I had promised I would not participate in this discussion at my first post. But then Chris, you have that effect on me and old habits die hard. I will try my level best to accept all your suggestions and live up to your expectations, until I have reached your level of proficiency in Math. Cross my heart and hope to die.
Now I have to go cause my Mommy wants to take me to the supermarket and get me that teddy bear she promised me...
I hope you don't mind my leaving at such short notice, but I think the world will be a better place without me and with you the one true mathematician to solve all the present and future mysteries of the Universe.
Chris K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 16:05
?

I don't understand...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
mamaji4
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 18:09 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 22:37
It is totally untrue that I cannot take mathematical criticism, as you insist, because I am inherently mathematically self critical. In fact I found a flaw in my own proof on what 0/0 evaluates to, while nobody else pointed it out to me.

I hope you are equally amenable to criticism as I am.
In the Pythogoras theorem you stated the following:
a^2 + b^2 = c^2
Therefor c = sqrt(a^2 + b^2)
This is a mathematically inaccurate statement
c = plus or minus sqrt(a^2 + b^2)
So then we have to wonder how the side of a triangle can take a negative value.
To return to fundamental principles, whenever you measure a line segment you assume by convention that the number line extends from left to right on the ruler giving you a positive value. By the same convention if you place the the ruler in the reverse x direction so that the numbering is from right to left (i.e. on the -ve x axis) you can see that any side of a triangle can take a -ve value. Of course this is w.r.t. the Pythogoras theorem and the associated right angled triangle.
However, for any other algerbraic equation which makes no reference to a geometric object, it is not necessary to show how it is possible for c to take a -ve value as it is obvious.
Chris K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 01:07
Um, I think you missed the point.

The proof was invalid, that was what I was trying to show - just because you derive something that is true from an assumption, that doesn't mean the original assumption was true.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Aaron Miller
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Playing: osu!
Posted: 30th Oct 2007 03:12
Quote: "Did you claim to have got a perfect score in your college entrance exam? What college are you at?"

To assume someone's genius based on simple score or area is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Einstein didn't go to Harvard so he must not be a genius, eh?

Quote: "0/0"

I'll rethink this as either equating to 0 or 1 considering a number divided by itself is 1. However you cannot fit anything into nothing, except nothing itself.... And yet, nothing can infinitely fit into nothing since it takes no room..... Quite the problem here, but I'm not going to attempt to solve it at this time.

Quote: "1/0"

Infinity. Reasons already stated.



Cheers,

-naota

DBP, $80. DBP's plugins, $320. Watching DBP Crash, Priceless.
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 04:11
0/0 = 1 Any number divided by itself is 1 according to the rule. Though it could be 0 as nothing divided by nothing = nothing...

This is such a conundrum.

Now, (any number) / 0 I'd have to say, could possibly equal infinity as 0 is just nothing. Nothing can go into something forever. You can never fill up a can with nothing, so you essentially, won't you be attempting to put something into it, even if you have nothing to put into it, forever?

Warning: Please be advised. Geek Culture is under lockdown. All mods are set to Indi mode. Any and all topics WILL BE LOCKED. Post at your own risk!
mamaji4
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 10:15 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 10:37
Quote: "Um, I think you missed the point.

The proof was invalid, that was what I was trying to show - just because you derive something that is true from an assumption, that doesn't mean the original assumption was true."


What I am about to tell you, will have to be clarified with your Math teacher, since we now need an authority that has to confirm who is right and who is wrong.
And I hope you don't consider my answering back to you as non-acceptance of math criticism on my part.
So...
Every proposed math theorem IS an assumption.
When you use a tautology or contradiction to prove that assumption you are said to have PROVED the theorem, which is no longer an assumption but a mathematically accurate statement.

And in the diagram, those 2 red arrows...
If you hadn't put those arrows there I would have wondered how the two b^2 "cancel out". I may be in first grade but please don't insult my intelligence to this extent


Another false statement you made
"c^2 = c^2 , which is true for all c"

Consider the complex plane.
For complex numbers
a = i
b = 1
we would have a right angled triangle with the vertex of the right angle at the origin of the complex plane.
a^2 + b^2
= i^2 + 1^2
= -1 + 1
= 0
We have shown that in the complex plane an example of a right angled triangle whose third side c = 0
This does not satisfy the Pythogoras constraint that a^2 + b^2 = c^2
Therefore, an accurate statement on your part would have been
"c^2 = c^2 , which is true for all Real numbers c"

I have not seen you defend any of the flaws that I have pointed out in your arguments. In which case how can I take any of your mathematical criticisms seriously. I wonder who is the one who is not open to mathematical criticism.
Chris K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 10:29
So are you saying that the proof of Pythagoras's Theorem I just gave is valid?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
mamaji4
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 10:39 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 10:41
You haven't proved the Pythogoras theorem.
The theorem is a mathematically accepted truth in that it has already been proved.
The statement c^2 = c^2 is like showing c = c or a = a or b = b which is a tautology for any algebraic expression in a,b and c.
You have not proved ANYTHING.

And I still haven't seen you admit to a single one of the flaws that I pointed out. Or try to disprove my criticism for that matter. So can we safely assume that you are acccutely prone to making false mathematical statements all the time. How then can I take your criticism seriously.
demons breath
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 10:51
Mamaji, I think that was the entire point of what he was saying...

mamaji4
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 11:17
James, I started out with the assumption that infinity as any number on the real line that is greater than infinity itself. I then used a set of statements to prove the theorem.
He started with a theorem, an accepted mathematical fact and arrived at a statement that has an obvious truth value.

I have actually attempted to prove what I claimed.
He has taken an established proof and said nothing more about it.

How then are the two the same.
demons breath
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 12:21
To be honest I don't really care, I'm just wondering whether you two will turn into the next Jeku and Raven.

But his entire point was that he didn't think your proof was conclusive enough.

I can't remember what yours was. I think I was drunk when I read your last few posts. Oh well...

mamaji4
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 12:25
lol James, I think I'll go and get drunk now. See you in beerland...
demons breath
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 12:28
WOO! ALCOHOL!

I would quite like to get drunk now. But I've skipped school this morning to write my English Coursework due in this afternoon so I really should do it - oh well I still have almost 3 hours to write it, have some lunch and walk to school - no problem!

mamaji4
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 12:56
Well, all the best then in your English Assignment.
I think I'll have to drink alone now...
demons breath
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 13:39
don't worry I'll probably have some vodka before I head off to school

ESP
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 17:37
Hi Jeku,

" I said the same thing about Y2K and look what happened on January 1, 2000 ---- absolutely nothing. "

Because so many MILLIONS of people worked VERY hard to prevent this. It REALLY annoys me when people refer to this as some kind of joke/hoax.

Robin
David R
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 20:00
Y2K was only really a danger to outdated or poorly designed software/hardware. The only "very hard work" I saw, was PC shops flogging supposedly "Y2K proof machines". Ok, they probably were (able to handle 2K dates etc.) but that doesn't make them any better than the large majority of machines that were already around (and most were capable of surviving the millennium)


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 20:37
Heheh... I had a laptop from 1992 that wasn't affected by Y2k.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Jeku
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 21:44
Quote: "Because so many MILLIONS of people worked VERY hard to prevent this. It REALLY annoys me when people refer to this as some kind of joke/hoax."


It really was not as bad as it was portrayed in the media. They were saying there's a good chance planes will fall out of the sky and nuclear reactors would go into meltdowns. The worst that happened was probably some little old lady didn't get her pension cheque deposited into her account.

I know it wasn't a "hoax" but it was overblown. The way it was portrayed as being too big a problem for people to fix. The Y2K issue is stupid anyway. To think a computer will just *die* because the date goes from 99 to 00 is ludicrous. People just accept that everything will shut down, but that just doesn't make any sense and there was no proof to back it up.

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