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Geek Culture / Microsoft tricking y ou to buy DX10 (Crysis on XP)

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Roxas
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 16:13 Edited at: 6th Nov 2007 16:21
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6182140/index.html?tag=topslot;title;2&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot

...

Some fans found out that XP Very High Quality settings was greyed out in crysis demo!

Can you actually see any diffrence on Vista and Windows XP Very High quality settings?

No!

What the **** is going on.. Vista runs slower the crysis than XP on Very High Quality..

No way.. Im not upgrading my os to vista

Edit:

If anyone is intrested on this XP Patch its here http://rapidshare.com/files/65472180/Crysis_Pack_High_to_VeryHigh__NoFrag_.zip.html

Also here is video running Very High Quality settings on XP http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KnF2WToPqGI

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Keo C
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 16:28
I don't why why people think they should dump DX9 so quickly, XP support runs until 2014. That's a good estimate that it will be around a while. The only reason Direct X 10 looks good to me is, the power sharing within the graphics card.


Roxas
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 16:29
Still.. DX9 and DX10 Screens looks so same! And heck DX9 runs better :S And they said DX10 gives perfomance boost..

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SimSmall
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 17:07
Quote: "And they said DX10 gives perfomance boost.."


That's probably true, just that the developers of Crysis haven't used DX 10 to its full potential. I'll say no more than that to avoid upsetting Jeku...
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 17:28
The more people that buy DX10 cards the sooner the developers will switch over and the more games that uses DX10 that comes out the more people will buy DX10 cards. It's a snowball effect that needs some pushing to get started. Personally I think we will see a lot more coming with the next gen of DX10 cards, lower prices/better performance and more people ready to upgrade from their DX9 systems due to the larger difference in performance.

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Deathead
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 17:35
@Roxas you don't have to buy Direct X10 its free. You just need to pay for Vista. And yes of-course X10 gives it a performance boost! It makes it run faster. Because you don't know that when its running X9 it gives out lag issues.

spider
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 17:59
i got about 2gb ram with an amd x2 4400+ and a 512 mb 6600gt and the game looks beautiful but is just playable at about 17-25 frames

heres a sceenie

No referral programs thanks!

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Roxas
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 18:07
@Deathead

Yes but consider to those who tested crysis with DX9 and the Very High Settings (With dx9 still) had better fps and it looks really same as dx10 shot..

And i know i dont need to pay off dx10 but its same thing to pay on vista cuz you cant get it otherwise..

@SimSmall

Microsoft said that crysis is the example what DX10 can archive


@spider

Nice but i suppose that is low settings right?
You can hack the Very High Quality settings to XP.. But not sure if it will run smooth on your computer..
and well umm.. We are talking about the very high settings in dx9


Anyways

I have not anything against microsoft but im still kinda dissapointed.. Crysis what should be the example of dx10 isnt any better than dx9..

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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 18:07
FPSC X10 does things that you just can't do in DirectX9. When you see the "50 characters in a room" demo with bloom, refraction, parallax shaders, water with reflection, refraction and distortion, plus shadows on characters, you realise it's got a little more fire in it's undercarriage.

Roxas
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 18:10
@Batvink
You posted just as i posted

Anyways.. I agree with that!
But it kinda feels that crysis "isnt" using these features :S
And it should still be the example what DX10 can archive..

And like i said DX9 hack had better frame rate as well..

But the FPSCX10 looks awesome tough

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 19:22
They greyed out thing is probably there for a reason, I wouldn't know why, but it did that on the demo of Doom 3 for me.

As for the whole DX10 vs DX9 thing...well, I've always been behind on the gaming, so I'm not upgrading until I've made the most of DX 9 games. It needn't be immediate, but as technology improves and developers like to take the advantage of these improvements it's a question of patience or money, me, I'm the patient one, down the line DX 10 stuff will be cheap...similarly I haven't bought any of the new consoles yet (partly due to lack of money) because it'll be cheaper, and well seeing the PS3 being sold cheaply in places has proven that is will.

I love Nancy DrewG, but not insert brain here
BatVink
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 21:16
From the things Lee has said, it would be difficult to make a game for DX9, that also took advantage of the DX10 new features. Perhaps all they have done is ramp up the texturing and switched on some additional effects for DX10.

Raven
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 21:42
Quote: "From the things Lee has said, it would be difficult to make a game for DX9, that also took advantage of the DX10 new features. Perhaps all they have done is ramp up the texturing and switched on some additional effects for DX10."


It's not that difficult, in-fact the DirectX SDK provides tutorials on creating combined executables to take advantage of both APIs with single source.

Although it does extend development time by almost 2-3x due to the added complexity and compatibility.

Quote: "They greyed out thing is probably there for a reason, I wouldn't know why, but it did that on the demo of Doom 3 for me. "


Yeah they did, cause Very High does NOTHING over High.
More to the point about all the harping about "DirectX10 for Windows XP" or such conspiricy theoriests out there...

THE CRYSIS DEMO DOES NOT SUPPORT DIRECTX10

Seriously, they use entirely different executables (anyone in the Beta on Fileplanet know this) and there is a world of difference between the two.

For one, the islands in the DirectX10 version there is constant dust in the air. The clouds are fully volumetric (which you can walk through) this also goes for the dust that settles at ground level after explosions.

Explosions themselves have far more volumetric properties and are DIFFERENT EVERYTIME, in DirectX9 on high-settings they're the exact same blast effect each time with the smoke itself that differs due to the wind physics.

Plain and simple fact is there is a world of difference between the two versions. While models themselves don't look that different nor does lighting as much. In-fact on the islands there is very little difference, when the additional weather effects kick-in and the water effects you can see quite a bit of difference.

Again on the videos of the "Very High" settings (still not Dx10) you can clearly see the beach waves are not actually part of the water or throwing up spray. On the DirectX10 version it makes the sand wet, slowly sliding up silt on the beach, looks part of the actual wave, and bubbles and foams up based on the object interaction.

The DirectX9 version still does look quite pretty, but has nothing on Call of Duty 4; especially when both are running under DirectX10. However a reason there is not DirectX10 version of the demo (or runtime provided) is simply because the performance is slooow. 8800 Ultra and Radeon HD 2900 XTX both struggle to keep more than 30fps on High settings at the 1024x768.

SimSmall
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 21:45
Quote: "Microsoft said that crysis is the example what DX10 can archive "


Well, I've not really been following what developers have been saying about Crysis, but going off your interpretation. That doesn't anywhere say that DX 9 can't achieve these results (you did mean achieve, didn't you? not archive). It just says that DX 10 can.

I'm not exactly clued up on any version of DirectX. But it does seem silly that they are already attempting to phase out Windows XP. You can still download automatic updates for Windows 2000, so they haven't even fully phased that one out yet. Yet already DX 10 is incompatible with XP If I've read it properly anyway.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 22:37
I wonder if this is what people were saying about DirectX 8/9 over DirectX 6/7... I mean, honestly, get over it. Eventually everyone's gonna use DirectX 10 (For those that use DirectX anyhow), and then everyone will just be b****ing about DirectX 11. If you don't like it, use OpenGL.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 00:59
Quote: "use OpenGL."

It works with Linux .....


TKF15H
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 02:48
Quote: "I wonder if this is what people were saying about DirectX 8/9 over DirectX 6/7... I mean, honestly, get over it."

No, this isn't the same thing. You didn't have to pay a bunch of money for an OS "upgrade" with the other DX versions.

Robert F
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:09 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 03:11


Your telling me you cant tell the difference between these. Look closely at the clouds and water. If you cant see it, then click on it to make it bigger, sorry about that.

dark coder
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:19
Bottom is an artist's impression.

TKF15H
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:19 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 03:22
Quote: "Your telling me you cant tell the difference between these. Look closely at the clouds and water. If you cant see it, then click on it to make it bigger, sorry about that."

Yeah, there's a big difference between the two shots, but it doesn't actually prove anything:
There's nothing on the DX10 scene that can't be done with DX9. The screen shot does not show the difference in FPS, so the DX10 version could be rendering at 5fps while the DX9 at 70.
And as Dc mentioned, there's no proof that that's really DX10. It could just be 3D studio max.

gamebird
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:29
Quote: "Quote: "They greyed out thing is probably there for a reason, I wouldn't know why, but it did that on the demo of Doom 3 for me. "

Yeah they did, cause Very High does NOTHING over High."


Not true. http://www.gamespot.com/features/6182140/index.html?tag=topslot;title;4&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot
Robert F
User Banned
Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:46
This isn't Crysis but you can still tell the differences alot

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6164940/index.html?msg_sort=1&cpage=1

dark coder
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:58
So they just used a parralax shader on the floor+shadows and added a nice backdrop? Both of which can be done in DX9 so I fail to see the point in screenshots to compare DX9 to DX10 as I'm sure DX9 gan visually produce anything using SM3 that anything using SM4 can do, however speed is key thing and screenshots can't easily show this.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 03:58
Quote: "It works with Linux"

Indeed it does, and it also works on Windows, eh?

Quote: "No, this isn't the same thing. You didn't have to pay a bunch of money for an OS "upgrade" with the other DX versions."

Kind of like switching from DOS to Windows... And they expect you to pay for the change? Pffft, no way they say. Well, if you look at the "os upgrade", it's upgrading to a damn good OS, which was completely rewritten, with new "video technology" which is a big difference between XP and Vista on the graphics side. DirectX 10 was written with "new technology" in mind, so of course it's only gonna be for the new OS. Seriously, people need to quit their b****ing about "Having to pay money for DirectX 10". If you don't like it use DirectX 9 or OpenGL.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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TKF15H
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 04:09 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 04:10
Quote: "Seriously, people need to quit their b****ing about "Having to pay money for DirectX 10". If you don't like it use DirectX 9 or OpenGL."

And that's what I'm doing, sticking to DX9/OGL. People aren't complaining about having to get DX10, they're complaining about paying, upgrading (which is quite a hassle, not like the old DOS days) and then not seeing much of a difference, or getting lower frame rates.
Besides, whenever there's any kind of change, there will always be people who are unhappy about it. And telling people to "get over it" won't make it any better. Get over it.

Raven
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 04:24
Quote: "Not true. http://www.gamespot.com/features/6182140/index.html?tag=topslot;title;4&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot "


A couple more objects, Depth of Field from 6tap to 9tap, slightly more aggressive hdr (probably move from 64 to 128bit)

What's more is I never got any of that changing the settings file to allow Very High on Vista (which yeah odd how it was greyed out on Vista as well as XP.. god sodding figure)

So what these people are doing to set these modes is beyond me. Still my previous point kinda stands though be it high or very high graphics at the end of the day it's all still DirectX9 not 10.

http://crysisfever.com/content/Videos

there are some direct comparisons on there for Dx9 and Dx10 Crysis, you might be surprised at what DirectX9 can actually achieve.

a point to make though is these comparisons aren't between both apis on their highest settings; but rather showing what you can do with both apis running at the same speed of 60fps on an NVIDIA GeForce 8800 Ultra

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 05:19 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 05:20
I suppose so...


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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icy
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 05:31
One word - Macintosh
Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 05:53
Quote: "One word - Macintosh "


What works for you may not be the best solution to others. Why do these threads have to become a battle between rivals trying to prove which is better?! No one cares if you like Macintosh or Linux. We are talking about DirectX 10 and Windows.

Warning: Please be advised. Geek Culture is under lockdown. All mods are set to Indi mode. Any and all topics WILL BE LOCKED. Post at your own risk!
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 05:56
Quote: "One word - Macintosh"

Oooo! Yes, I know those... They make great toasters. Though the toast it makes always sucks.... So.... I suppose they are fun to stick M80s in!


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 13:01
Now we wait for OSX Using Happy Dude to stick a M80 in Aaron.

Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 13:06
Quote: "Now we wait for OSX Using Happy Dude to stick a M80 in Aaron."

He'd have to be pretty big to fit a globular cluster in.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Roxas
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 14:20
So now i readed raven post.. That may explain it..

If crysis isnt using DX10 features yet! Only DX9 then that explains it :S

But still im not upgrading anytime soon if i dont get my upgrade free

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 14:56
Vista is just not worth it at the moment. I'm not sure why Microsoft changed the file architecture, I think it was to improve work flow or some rubbish, but they just screwed every thing up for current software.

X10 is not worth it either, because you can basically get the same effects in X9. It's just one big marketing scheme.

Keo C
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 16:16
Quote: "Indeed it does, and it also works on Windows, eh?"

See, Open Source and Windows people can agree.....most of the time.


Robert F
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 18:54 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 18:56
Quote: "People aren't complaining about having to get DX10, they're complaining about paying, upgrading (which is quite a hassle, not like the old DOS days) and then not seeing much of a difference, or getting lower frame rates."


You wont get a lower frame rate, if you have the right stuff installed. Its just like x9 if you don't have the right stuff in your computer of course its going to run slow.

All the new stuff is always going to cost more, and your telling me that when x9 came out and you had to upgrade your computer to play on top level settings, that nobody was complaining because they had to spend more money, I highly doubt it. Its not really about the graphics cards, its people. People always complain about the cost of stuff, its just a natural thing, look at the American gas prices right now, people are outraged about that, theres just nothing you can do about it right now, the economy is low so business' have to sell their products for more and thats that.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 23:56
Pffft, American gas prices aren't that high (And I'm an American), some countries pay $7 USD on average for gas.

Quote: "See, Open Source and Windows people can agree.....most of the time."

I DO make Open Source software ya know.... Just mainly for Windows. I do want to expand the reach of my software to Linux though, perhaps even the Amiga Research Operating System too, hell, FreeDOS is also a good candidate...

Quote: "Now we wait for OSX Using Happy Dude to stick a M80 in Aaron."

lol! Would be fun to see if he crashes mid transfer. Oooo! Oooo! Come round kids, we'll tell the story of the 3 Vistas and the "Big Bad Mac".


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 02:51
Quote: "I DO make Open Source software ya know"

Well I was speaking in terms of OS, but do you keep your Software on a website so I can have a look?


andrey d
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 04:40 Edited at: 8th Nov 2007 04:44
Quote: "That's probably true, just that the developers of Crysis haven't used DX 10 to its full potential."

That's what they were saying about DX9 not too long ago.

Quote: "Seriously, people need to quit their b****ing about "Having to pay money for DirectX 10". If you don't like it use DirectX 9 or OpenGL."

Just wait until hacked DX10 for XP is out. (Alky Project has released an alpha version but I didn't have time to try it out yet. Obviously it's gonna be buggy but it's a start.)
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 05:54
@Keo C
Official WinGUI page
Home Page



@andrey d
You enjoy your "fake" software for as long as you can knowing it's just a piece of crap immitation of currently existing solutions for the obviously better operating system.



Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Osiris
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 06:32
Quote: "some countries pay $7 USD on average for gas."


Lol thats like 3.35 Pounds and 4.81 Euros. So it's not that far off.

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Keo C
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 23:25
Ohh.. Now I have something to look forward to! (Lunar Basic)


Aaron Miller
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 00:35
@Keo C
I'm not sure if that's an insult or a compliment.... ?


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 00:44
Quote: "I'm not sure if that's an insult or a compliment."

Compliment, I wonder if you put out a tech-demo or something, the page is broken.


Aaron Miller
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 03:55
Yeah, I believe I offered some tech demos here.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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andrey d
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 05:20
Quote: "You enjoy your "fake" software for as long as you can knowing it's just a piece of crap immitation of currently existing solutions for the obviously better operating system."

Lol? Vista is an embarrassment of an OS. I wouldn't use it if it was given to me for free. Fake software? I'm sure Wine and Cedega for Linux and current hacks to run DX10 games on XP don't exist. If you want to talk to me, get out of your own world first.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 05:27
If I recall correctly people were saying "XP is an embarrassment of an OS" when it was first out too, eh?

And by "fake software" I mean that it's not the real thing. It's not really DirectX 10. So you enjoy your fake software.

I am out of my own world, but you seem to be creating yours in XP. Here's a question, how long did you own and use Vista? How long have you had to test it? Do you currently own and use it?

I would like to state I have nothing against wine or cedega, or whatever else to emulate Windows.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 05:42 Edited at: 10th Nov 2007 05:43
Man, people love to bash Windows. I don't hate Windows, I just think Linux is better suited to my needs. Oh Windows does have a lot of bugs, but no OS, not even a *nix OS is perfect. I'm not to argue about this anymore, just go stand in the corner with the BSD people.


Aaron Miller
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 05:48
LOL! I think I have OpenBSD on a disk somewhere.... Maybe that'll work on my computer. As a side note though, I do like Linux <Except for the filesystem's lack in incase-sensitiveness>, but Windows better suits my needs.

Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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David R
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 12:59
Quote: "it's upgrading to a damn good OS, which was completely rewritten, with new "video technology" which is a big difference between XP and Vista on the graphics side."


The amazing new OS which suffers network slowdown whilst playing MP3s? http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=724

Don't get me wrong, I like Vista in some ways, and I have used it (and I own it also, OEM). I used it for a while, and I was impressed; most of the 'big stuff' works well - but it was the sum of lots of little annoyances that sent me back to XP; mainly performance. I don't have a totally incapable rig, but most of the time it sounded as if Vista was killing my hard drive (even with indexing etc. off) and basic file operations being slow for no explicable reason was the last straw.

So I like it, but until they fix its flaws, I don't think they're going to have the 'millions' of DX10 users they think they will have; not to mention the using Vista vs. Having a DX10 gpu is a very big difference. I don't even have a DX10 gpu, but for now, they have failed to even convince me to use the OS. Maybe when SP1 is out...


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