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Geek Culture / Why people hate C++

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:44
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Quote: "It is a restriction.. I could make two identical programs in DBPro and C++, though for me C++ would genuinelly be easier and more organised, and expandable."


You don't understand what I am suggesting!

I'm suggesting using ONE language for all purposes instead of having so many languages to learn.

IMO a beginner finds it difficult to choose what language to start with, hence all the posts I read - 'What language should I learn', if there were ONE language, this would not be a problem as this ONE language would be the de-facto language for all to learn to do absolutely EVERYTHING.
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:46
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Dude, did you read my post? If you want to be picky, just learn ASM.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:47 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:49
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Quote: "IMO a beginner finds it difficult to choose what language to start with"

Unfortunatelly the case is that most new languages arent being created for beginners to learn on, they are being created because seasoned programmers see flaws with some languages, and identify opportunities that can make programming more efficient.


[edit]

Quote: "If you want to be picky, just learn ASM"

Good point. ASM can do everything, depending on the platform, but is it really that efficient to program in? No, because you cant do things like functions and classes in the traditional sense. The great thing about C++ is that is has all of these things, but you dont have to use them.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:48
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ah, I really cant be bothered to argue this point any longer, this is why there will never be ONE language because humans are all too eager to destroy one another!
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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:51
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Quote: "IMO a beginner finds it difficult to choose what language to start with, hence all the posts I read - 'What language should I learn', if there were ONE language, this would not be a problem as this ONE language would be the de-facto language for all to learn to do absolutely EVERYTHING."

The language that gets closest to that description is C++. But due to the flexibility it has to do absolutely EVERYTHING, it's not something you'd want a beginner to start with.

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:52
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...LEARN ASM THEN WRITE THE ONE LANGUAGE TO RULE THEM ALL. Unfortunately, you would have to make it expandable. Because people are constantly improving technology.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:52
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Quote: "Having no alternatives to choose from is the worst thing that could happen"


I'm with you there.
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:54
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Quote: "The language that gets closest to that description is C++. But due to the flexibility it has to do absolutely EVERYTHING, it's not something you'd want a beginner to start with."


As I've said before: Rubbish. A beginner can only do what a beginner thinks they can. If they are told they can't,m then they won't. As I've said before: C++ was my starting language, so why not someone else's?

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:55 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:57
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Green Gandalf,

Why would not having alternatives be a problem in terms of an API ?

for example, you suddenly hear of the 'OWNED API' that rules EVERY other API and works on ANY OS, why would you need an alternative? Why would you bother using OpenGL for Linux and DirectX for windows when 'OWNED' could do it all?
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:58
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Because if there was no diversity, then not only is there a monopoly, but less innovation, less appeal to less programmers. It is going to happen though. At the rate Microsoft is going. At least, in the way of Commercial industry. But not everywhere.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:59 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:59
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Quote: "Yes it is.

With DBP I could get a 3D scene up and running in 5 minutes from installing the product. With C++ I'm still struggling after several weeks to work out how to use all the classes, inheritance concepts, DX9 functions, etc."


You don't need most of the features you mentioned in order to get a 3D scene up and running - nor do you strictly need them to code anything. E.g. clases + inheritance aren't needed for straight C (not to mention the fact they are pretty simple to understand)

It's a shame though, now I've done some C++, I fail to understand what was difficult about learning it to begin with. So I still don't 'get' these quips about it being tricky


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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:01
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I dont believe it will allow 'less innovation' - quite the opposite in fact. Developers could focus on one api instead of having to think about differences between API's, it could allow focus, innovation and increased productivity.
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:02
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Need I also point out that some advanced IDEs (Code::Blocks) can do class creation/inheritance and polymorphism templates for you in real-time?

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:09
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Quote: "Why would not having alternatives be a problem in terms of an API ?"

Firstly, you will find almost every API you will ever need in C++. Second, it's not just the API, it's the programming style.

Quote: "Developers could focus on one api instead of having to think about differences between API's, it could allow focus, innovation and increased productivity. "

But not everyone develops the same thing. A person who would make a graphics wrapper is unlikely to make a compiler, vice versa. Once there is only one language, there will be no use for people with ideas for potentially better programming languages.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:11
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Quote: "Quote: "The language that gets closest to that description is C++. But due to the flexibility it has to do absolutely EVERYTHING, it's not something you'd want a beginner to start with."

As I've said before: Rubbish. A beginner can only do what a beginner thinks they can. If they are told they can't,m then they won't. As I've said before: C++ was my starting language, so why not someone else's?"

I never said beginners CAN'T start with C++. It's just that, when I was doing Programming classes in uni, I noticed most people had trouble learning the language in ways they wouldn't if they'd started off with something simpler, like BASIC.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:15 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 23:16
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To summarise, if you put the two programming languages (BASIC & C++) in order of how easy they are to learn, efficiency and popularity, it would basically look like this:

BASIC -> C++

I dont think I have to point out that C++ is also very expandable, and libraries are added to it at the same rate that programming languages are being created to run things that only run off things similar to these, probably faster.

So you can start at the bottom and learn BASIC, and you can stay there if you want. No problem, I just personally prefer the view from the top of the ladder.

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:17
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Hahaha, nice way to put it, Zotoaster.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:21
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Quote: "
Zotoaster:

But not everyone develops the same thing. A person who would make a graphics wrapper is unlikely to make a compiler, vice versa. Once there is only one language, there will be no use for people with ideas for potentially better programming languages."


It's not the language that needs changing but the design methodology, hence DB PRO is procedural and I believe someone is working on an OOP version of DB PRO. Stick with one language, same keywords etc... if someone feels the need to change the design, they have a language template that they could stick to as standard.
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:26
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And what happens when someone demands that they get scoping for DBP? The others will tell them to go learn C++


Quote: "they have a language template that they could stick to as standard"

Put it this way. BASIC came before C++. If everyone thought like you, people would still stick to BASIC and never know of C++. You might call this a good thing, but I dont, because people do know C++, and it's used far more than BASIC on large scale projects. I said it once and I'll say it again; it wouldn't be the industry standard if it wasn't one of the best, or infact the very best programming language around.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:38
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We will never cure all this bickering about languages! *lol* It's the school ground, 'My dad is better than your dad' argument.

This is why ONE language should be developed, ONE graphics API, ONE sound API etc... Apple, Microsoft, RedHat etc... ONE Operating System *LOL*, yeh ok, so I'm probably trying to live in a perfect world - which will probably never happen, but so much more can be accomplished if we all worked as one.

The real problem is not the languages, API's, OS's, The REAL problem is human nature!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:43
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Cmon, do you only eat one thing for dinner every day? No because that would be boring. Do you only take one class in school? No because then you can only get one job. Hell with it, do you even watch sports? They pretty much sum this up. Without competition there is little progression.

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dark coder
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:50 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 23:51
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[Edit] Ah there are two pages

so yea, C++ rocks your socks.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:59
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I disagree, there could infact be MORE competition in terms of creativity and productivity, if developers focused on ONE language, ONE api blah blah blah, there would be no reason for a beginner to become confused as to what to learn - they already know because there is only ONE choice, after awhile, they become fluent and no longer have to 'think' how, they only have to think 'what'.

ONE universal solution is necessary!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:05 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 00:07
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I very strongly disagree with all your points.

As I already mentioned, people who specialise in making compilers and interpreters do not necessarly specialise in making APIs. They would therefore be put out of business.

Again, as I mentioned, it's rarely about beginners. Everyone who sticks to programming will eventually stop being a beginner and will not care about what's easy, only what's efficient.

And finally, thinking 'how' is one of the great pleasures in programming! The reason I do it isn't just because I can make my visions come to life, but because I like to think outside the box and what interesting ways there are to do things efficiently.

You know what is better than being good at one programming language? Being good at alot. It seems that the only problem there with you is that you simply can't be bothered to do so.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:08
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Quote: "What would be the point of having loads of API's when ONE could do it all, take the strongest design and implement the strongest features into ONE API, there really is no need to have more than ONE!"

until the owners of the API remove or change something critical, as a design decision, and half the people using it go beserk. Then what? No alternatives right?

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
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n008
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:10
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^ Then this funny thing called speciation happens, and sha-zam! Back to multiple languages and styles.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:16
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Quote: "As I already mentioned, people who specialise in making compilers and interpreters do not necessarly specialise in making APIs. They would therefore be put out of business."


They wouldn't necessarily go out of business as they would continue to improve what already exists. i.e. The Hypothetical compiler.

Quote: "Everyone who sticks to programming will eventually stop being a beginner and will not care about what's easy, only what's efficient."


Simplicity = Efficiency

Quote: "And finally, thinking how is one of the great pleasures in programming! The reason I do it isn't just because I can make my visions come to life, but because I like to think outside the box and what interesting ways there are to do things efficiently."


again, this refers to the human EGO, let's be honest, what's most impressive looking at C++ code or looking at, say, DB PRO, even a true beginner would know what some of the DB code did.

Quote: "You know what is better than being good at one programming language? Being good at alot. It seems that the only problem there with you is that you simply can't be bothered to do so.
"


Not the case, I just think one language is necessary for any task - if properly designed.
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n008
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:18
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Quote: "Simplicity = Efficiency"


I challenge you to prove this.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:18
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come on, there MUST be one person reading this who agrees with me, or have you all been brain washed by the fanboys? lol
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n008
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:19
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No. No one wants it all to be the same. Only people interested in monopolies and Totalitarianism do.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:20 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 00:24
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Quote: "
n008:

I challenge you to prove this.

"


If something is simple, less chance to make a mistake due to complexity! simple concept really!

Simplicity = Efficiency

why did programmers go from PURE Binary to ASM? because at the time is was a more efficient way of entering code, why go from ASM to C, because C looked alot easier to understand than ASM etc...
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n008
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:22
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Nope. YOu don't grasp Efficientcy. Human error has little to do with it.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:22 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 00:25
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Quote: "even a true beginner would know what some of the DB code did."


Dont make me mention beginners for a third time!


Quote: "Not the case, I just think one language is necessary for any task - if properly designed. "

Yes, C++.

You got me in a rant! Did I really forget to mention that almost all of these APIs and infact made for C++?!


[edit]

Quote: "Simplicity = Efficiency "

Having no classes is simpler than having classes, that's a tautology. Having classes is more efficient than not, and since efficiency is what they were invented for, this is also a tautology. Therefore, you are wrong.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:27
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Have a class would allow you to create an object , i.e. an instance of a class, therefore calling the methods withing the class, you don't need to write another class!

having no class would mean having to write a class yourself, such as a string object, do you REALLY want to write your own string object? when you can use a predefined solution?

in terms of simplicity using someone elses creation is more efficient than starting from no class, if tried and tested!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:29
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Quote: " do you REALLY want to write your own string object?"

Yes. And I have.

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ionstream
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:29 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 00:30
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The first language I learned was C++, although I had used VB in the past (I didn't know what I was doing, but I changed other people's code around, just to see what would happen). I was fortunate enough to be learning when gametutorials.com was free, so I struggled less to learn it. I believe that C++ is the best language if you are very serious about making a large project, by yourself or with others. That being said, I probably use Python more than I use C++, because most of my programs are small utilities, such as helping me out with homework or studying, helping me to type, etc. It would be overkill for me to make a new project in Visual C++ in order to do simple things like this, but I do believe C++ is the better language.

Efficiency is not related to simplicity.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:36
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Quote: "Efficiency is not related to simplicity."


How so?

If you start with a complex problem, you break it up into chunks, i.e. you make it simple which makes the implementation more 'efficient'.
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:39
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You tell me a simple method of making an efficient 3D graphics lib and I will get back to you on that one

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:48 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 00:49
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Quote: "You tell me a simple method of making an efficient 3D graphics lib and I will get back to you on that one"


Any problem is simple if you cut it down, use tried and tested techniques and algorithms as the basis of creating an efficient 3D graphics library - ofcourse, you need to understand those techniques before you can create such a library, again, break it down and work n each individual problem.

What other answer were you looking for? THE CODEZ *LOL*
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David R
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:48
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Quote: "Simplicity = Efficiency"


That is clearly false. Binary is simple. Why aren't you coding in raw binary? Because it's slow and a waste of time. i.e inefficient.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:52 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 00:53
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Quote: "
Any problem is simple if you cut it down, use tried and tested techniques and algorithms as the basis of creating an efficient 3D graphics library - ofcourse, you need to understand those techniques before you can create such a library, again, break it down and work n each individual problem."

Uhm, isn't that a bit contradictory to "not thinking 'how' but thinking 'what'" argument?

Even complexity is good sometimes. I know there is a very useful string class for C++, and I use it quite often, but even though I knew about it I went on to create my very own. I dont use it, but I know how it works, and it made me a better programmer. If it wasnt for things like that we'd all be using RPG Maker by now.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 00:57
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Quote: "That is clearly false. Binary is simple. Why aren't you coding in raw binary? Because it's slow and a waste of time. i.e inefficient."


Not necessarily inefficient if you break the problem down, how did we manage to get to where we are now if coding in RAW binary was inefficient? The coders made the process simple to work with, the essence of the problem was simplified therefore making the process more efficient.

If you had a long dot-matrix paper stream of binary then yes, it's inefficient, but by making the process 'simple' i.e. more organised the whole process became alot more efficient than by focusing on the problem in it's totality.
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Zotoaster
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Quote: "The coders made the process simple to work with"

And something tells me that that wasn't a very simple process. But who cares about "The coders" eh? Programming is all about beginners, right? ¬_¬

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n008
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Now you understand, Zoto!

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Cash Curtis II
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C++ is a great language, it would be silly for anyone to 'hate' it. I like DBP because it's easy and quick to develop games with and as a single poor developer I need every advantage I can get. If I took much longer I'd never get anything done.

Quote: "Not the case, I just think one language is necessary for any task - if properly designed."

What about scripting languages like LUA used in conjunction with an engine written in a different language? Different languages fill different needs - languages aren't just about syntax, some have very different functionality.


Come see the WIP!
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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 05:35
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@Virtual X - Did you even read my post in direct response to you? There *can't* be one language to rule them all, because people REQUIRE different languages for different things. It would be incredibly wasteful to use DBP for, say, an accounting program. But it would be insane if the developers of Crysis used ActionScript.

C++ is about the closest language I can see that can do theoretically any kind of software app you can dream of. The fact that there are many APIs is a GOOD thing. I would not use DirectX 10 to write a CD burning application. There are positives and negatives to all 3rd party APIs, and it's hippy to assume somebody can make a one size fits all language and API that can do ANYTHING.

My wife likes dark chocolate, but I prefer milk chocolate. People use the tools they have to do the things they need that tools were built for. Communism is dead, man

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tha_rami
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 10:33 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 10:33
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How about a programming language that reads your mind and translates it to working code?

One API, one language, everyone his own, perfect .


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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 13:30
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If we get that far technically we won't need programming languages as a general user could just pick up one of those things and create what they want...

That would be a dark day


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calcyman
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 14:45
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It's case sensitive - that's the only reason I haven't programmed in it.

The optomist's right, The pessimist's right.
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n008
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^ Are you talking about C++? lol.

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