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Geek Culture / Stop School Shootings - a game idea

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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:33 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 06:33
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Yeah, I know. Stupid me. Mods can see edits, right, can any of them replace my last post with what it was before?

Thanks for quoting me, lover of games!


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n008
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:35
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I edited my post just for you, rami.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:43
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Quote: "The point is, we can't put ourselves in a warzone. War is something distant, far away. There's anonymous faces killing anonymous faces and people only care because they think one side is right. The situation is unknown to us and we seem to not even realize the amount of damage and the number of innocent lives taken, not to mention the soldiers, by the way. They're numbers.

Now, a school shooting puts it in a situation we can recognize. In both cases, innocent lives are taken by violence and one can argue about the use or intentions - killing innocents is an incalculated risk when going to war or opening fire. And even if you do make a point about it, what does it matter? An innocent life is lost - does the situation devaluate the person? I think not.

But in the war scenario, it's far away. In the school scenario, it could be next door. In my opinion, stating this is politically incorrect to do in a game is a total disrespect for the innocents dying in war-zones."


That was beautiful Tha_Rami. We have finally reached a point of zen with that amazing piece of imagery there. Good job

So, with THAT said. CAN lover of games, or anyone for that matter, make a game that DOESN'T hit the wrong nerves? I mean... now that we know what that touchy nerve is (as Rami elegantly pointed out), can we either a) approach the subject via a game with a good tone and or b) move around that touchy spot.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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n008
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:45
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Dangit, did you people read my post?

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:48
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Quote: "And before everyone jumps down my throat I would like to point out that I have lost two siblings, and a close friend.

I have seen the problem, and it lay in how death is explained and taught to children."


Sorry to hear that dude... I don't think anyone jumping down your throat by the way, this has been a pretty mature discussion, one the mods should be proud of!

I understand your point about it being taught wrong. Death is sugar coated to little kids, but can it be done any other way humanely without affecting their sane development? How would you break it to a 5 year old that their dad went off to war... to fight a battle of honor and glory but died on some random unknown beach... You have to give SOME sort of reason as to why they'll never see them again. And also one that they can comprehend at that age. Daddy isn't coming home is easier to understand at that stage than death is. I think that's why it's sugar coated.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:50
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Quote: "this has been a pretty mature discussion, one the mods should be proud of!"

I agree, is this the first debate the TGC forums have seen without a lock? Hope that doesn't jinx it, of course...

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n008
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 06:57 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 06:58
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@Sid: Not what I meant.

Well, sort of.

Well... No, yea I guess.

But still, I hoestly think that just teaching kids to accept it as a way of life would be better in the long run.

I don't mean just telling them "He's dead and gone, nothing left, you won't even, never see him again." Not being too blunt, but at the same time not avoiding it.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 07:13
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I get what you mean n008. Don't fret

Quote: "I agree, is this the first debate the TGC forums have seen without a lock? Hope that doesn't jinx it, of course..."


I know! This is crazy! I must say, kudos to all for keeping a debate clean for once +5 for you all lol.

Looks like we're all winding down and going to bed. So tomorrow, let's resume the discussion with what I had said earlier. Seeing as we answered the main question I posed and a few others along the way, lets get back on track with this one:

-After reading tha_rami's-
Quote: "The point is, we can't put ourselves in a warzone. War is something distant, far away. There's anonymous faces killing anonymous faces and people only care because they think one side is right. The situation is unknown to us and we seem to not even realize the amount of damage and the number of innocent lives taken, not to mention the soldiers, by the way. They're numbers.

Now, a school shooting puts it in a situation we can recognize. In both cases, innocent lives are taken by violence and one can argue about the use or intentions - killing innocents is an incalculated risk when going to war or opening fire. And even if you do make a point about it, what does it matter? An innocent life is lost - does the situation devaluate the person? I think not.

But in the war scenario, it's far away. In the school scenario, it could be next door. In my opinion, stating this is politically incorrect to do in a game is a total disrespect for the innocents dying in war-zones."


I posed the question:
Quote: "
So, with THAT said. CAN lover of games, or anyone for that matter, make a game that DOESN'T hit the wrong nerves? I mean... now that we know what that touchy nerve is (as Rami elegantly pointed out), can we either a) approach the subject via a game with a good tone and or b) move around that touchy spot."


"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Inspire
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 07:38
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Wow.

This an great discussion.

I just kinda feel uncomfortable talking about this subject, so many people are immature about it, and too many people make terrible jokes about it.

Good job to everyone who hasn't gotten this locked.

And I agree with what tha_rami says 100%.

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 08:31
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The thing with war games is that it's only ever soldiers doing the dying, really they could go into a whole other territory, showing victims etc, but they don't.

Kids get emotionally involved in games, hell some adults do as well, but personally I'd say we can never show the true nature of war in videogames, it would affect and upset too many people. War games are about killing drones, they could be any nation and it won't matter because they're simply soldier drones who have no personality, voice, opinion, life, family, or anything - and we largely cannot imagine them having such things.

But, add in something innocent, say a kitten, imagine the next CoD5 has you killing terrorists left and right, then a kitten walks in front of you, only to be shot through the neck by a sniper. People would be horrified at that. If a little scripted kitten could have such an affect, imagine what the results would be with a child, or rather don't. We play videogames as a means of escapism, we don't need more misery in there than we have already, we should never get that desensitized.

Now as a test, wait a few months for Fable 2 to be released, then see the reaction of people when their doggie dies, because I just know that git Molyneaux is gonna go there!.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Dazzag
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 09:19 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 09:29
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Quote: "What makes school shootings taboo and everything else fair game?"
For starters, everything else isn't fair game. There was loads of outcry for many different things. But nowadays we have had so much of it that running someone over in a car doesn't raise an eyebrow anymore. But with school shootings then it's violence against children. Whole different level right there. Go the whole hog and make a pedophile game and see how it is recieved.

If you are a kid then you probably don't get it. But adults seriously want to avoid the subject of harming kids. Once they hit 16 of course then they can rot in hell as far as we are concerned, but ho-hum...

Quite warming to my school game idea. Cross between Skool Daze and The Great Escape would be tops. Perhaps in a more innocent light than school massacres though...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 09:27
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I loved Skool Daze, Back to Skool etc, and the Great Escape - someone actually made a 3D remake of Skool Daze a few years ago. I still play them on my NDS through SpeccyDS.

I think you should go for it Dazzag, but keep it real and set it in the 70's, when stink bombs and Chinese burns were considered cutting edge, and you should definitely make that guy in your avatar the science teacher . I know I'd play it, just don't forget the ability to write obscenities on the blackboard.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 09:36
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Quote: "I think you should go for it Dazzag, but keep it real and set it in the 70's"
Heh, if we are talking UK schools from the 70s (or even now really) then subject of school shootings goes right out of the window. But the idea of a Great Escape in a school does sound appealing.

The morale idea fits in too. If you remember in great escape if you let go of controls then he moved to go back to normal routine, but if you got caught too many times then you lost all control and you had to restart (character loses will to escape). Instead of escape then can change to a more Skool Daze game. So cheating at exams, playing pranks, setting electronic bugs in girls toilet (friend of mine actually did that) etc etc.

Oh, and perfect type game for online multiplayer. If more of an adventure game then you wouldn't even need to worry too much about collisions and the like, so would be a lot easier to program (than say an FPS).

Something to think of. Shame I'm really busy right now though Anyone else?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Dazzag
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 09:38
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Quote: "you should definitely make that guy in your avatar the science teacher"
That is the saviour of horror I will have you know. If anything he would be the school Doctor. And official Demon hunter... oh, and writer, director, actor etc.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Lover of games
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 14:19
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One thing, if we can't show children dieing why is it that in Prey they shopw kids gertting killed by a demon? so i guess it's ok for a demon to kill a child but if it's kids killing other kids, yea that's bad?

"Originally I was going to have a BS on it but you know how that would be. I can't walk around with the letters BS on me." More or less a qoute by Syndrome from Jack, Jack, attack
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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 14:24
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How many demons have killed kids in the last year?

How many kids have been killed by other kids, schoolyard shootings, stabbings, gun accidents?

Spot the difference?


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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 14:50
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Quote: "How many demons have killed kids in the last year?

How many kids have been killed by other kids, schoolyard shootings, stabbings, gun accidents?

Spot the difference?"


Ah just throwing it out there.

"Originally I was going to have a BS on it but you know how that would be. I can't walk around with the letters BS on me." More or less a qoute by Syndrome from Jack, Jack, attack
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 16:50
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Lol, I loved the kitten example

Quote: "then a kitten walks in front of you, only to be shot through the neck by a sniper. People would be horrified at that. "


Yeah, I remember being horrified by Aerith's death in FF7. I mean in that case the character was built up and given a chance to attach emotionally to the player before they offed her.

Quote: "So, with THAT said. CAN lover of games, or anyone for that matter, make a game that DOESN'T hit the wrong nerves? I mean... now that we know what that touchy nerve is (as Rami elegantly pointed out), can we either a) approach the subject via a game with a good tone and or b) move around that touchy spot.""


So Van and Dazzag, is your stance on the question "No you can't" then? Just trying to gage the opinion here.

I think it's possible to make this game with a good tone and without hitting the touchy spot that Rami, Van and Dazzag have all pointed out.

I think it's possible through the creative use of perspective and a creative use of the situation. Who knows, maybe a kid who's played this game will have benefited in that he can react faster to the trama of having a gunman in your school making him more able to make cool-headed decisions faster. I don't stake my debate on idea, but it's possible

What if no one dies in the game? No kid or anyone for that matter, even the gunman, dies. Would that make things better?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 21:58
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Quote: "Isn't being raped or mugged on the streets 'terrible' and 'close to people'?"


Wait a sec--- in what game do you have to rape or mug people to win? Talk about sensationalism


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 22:09
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You are able to do it in GTA. Maybe not rape, but having sex with a prostitute and then kill her for your money. Mugging people? You're able to steal/kill for money in GTA (correct? It's been a while), kill for money in GTA, your able to pick pocket in Elder Scrolls Morrowind and Oblivion and a bunch of other games.

And as a funny zelda comic once said... "If the treasure chest isn't yours, your stealing." Lol

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 22:17 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 22:17
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Quote: "but having sex with a prostitute and then kill her for your money. Mugging people? You're able to steal/kill for money in GTA"


Is Jack Thompson rubbing off on you a bit? You can kill *anyone* in the game, and you can have sex with prostitutes (which is legal in some states and countries by the way). After you have sex, yes, you can kill her, but that's not the point of the game. It's not like the designers said "Hey, let's allow the player to do a prostitute, then kill her for the money!" What they did was allow you to kill anyone, and allow you to do the prostitutes. That's like saying it's awful that you can drive into an old lady, and then run over the cop who's chasing you on the street. There's no connection there.

And the mugging is not the "point" of the game. It's an avenue to get money, but you don't have to do it.

I read this gist from a site today, but forgot which one: GTA is not realistic. Pistols do not auto-reload. You can't conceal rifles, pistols, flame-throwers and grenades in your bottomless pockets. You don't magically appear patched up in a hospital after getting blown up, with nothing lost but a few hundred dollars. To say that GTA is a rape and mugging simulator is pretty offensive, actually.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 22:25
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Quote: "What they did was allow you to kill anyone, and allow you to do the prostitutes. That's like saying it's awful that you can drive into an old lady, and then run over the cop who's chasing you on the street."


What's sad is it's the player who came up with the idea to do it. The developers never said "hey, go screw and then kill a prostitute". The fact that you could even have a romp with a prostitute wasn't even advertised.

(And yes, I got sick gamer pleasure out of realizing I could run down a prostitute to get my money back)


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BenDstraw
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 23:59
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Its sad thats the way it is. People forget its just a game and get overly sensitive about it. This reminds me of the big stir caused by Kennedy Reloaded

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:00
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Hey Jeku, how about you cut back the tone a bit huh? This thread has been perfectly fine with out sarcasm. Your a mod for god sake.

Quote: "I read this gist from a site today, but forgot which one: GTA is not realistic. Pistols do not auto-reload. You can't conceal rifles, pistols, flame-throwers and grenades in your bottomless pockets. You don't magically appear patched up in a hospital after getting blown up, with nothing lost but a few hundred dollars. To say that GTA is a rape and mugging simulator is pretty offensive, actually."


Then according to this, lover of games should have no problem developing a school shooter game as long as it follows these guidelines.

Quote: "To say that GTA is a rape and mugging simulator is pretty offensive, actually."


You took offense to that?

Quote: "It's not like the designers said "Hey, let's allow the player to do a prostitute, then kill her for the money!""


Oh really? Then how did it get in there? Explain that to me. That must be some amazing, self-programming game right there. Maybe TGC out to invest in that technology. And while their at it, invest in 'hot coffee.'

I know it isn't the point of game by the way.

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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:17
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I've created a monster!!!

"Originally I was going to have a BS on it but you know how that would be. I can't walk around with the letters BS on me." More or less a qoute by Syndrome from Jack, Jack, attack
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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:25
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Jeku is right, in my opinion. The game allows you to kill anyone and take the money they have, AND the game allows you to uhm... how'dya call it a prostitute, which increases her amount of money... And thus, running her over, gives you back your money. It wasn't a design goal or something.


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RalphY
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:43 Edited at: 19th Feb 2008 00:44
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Quote: "Oh really? Then how did it get in there?"

It was a bug. Really though it's two unrelated game mechanics that gamers worked out how to exploit.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:47
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It's not even a bug. It's just indeed two unrelated gamemechanics.


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RalphY
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Yes, I was attempting to make a joke . I'm sorry I let you down. I guess were even now, I seem to remember me missing the fact you were joking in a thread a while back...

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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:59
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Well, even though not a bug, it definitely is bugging a lot of people .


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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 01:01 Edited at: 19th Feb 2008 01:07
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Quote: "Hey Jeku, how about you cut back the tone a bit huh? This thread has been perfectly fine with out sarcasm. Your a mod for god sake."


Um, what? Did I miss something? I'm giving my opinion on the debate. If you disagree and can't handle it, then go away. Nobody's forcing you to respond. My tone is serious, not sarcastic. And because I'm a mod doesn't mean I have to watch what I say any more than anyone else here

I'm not towing the "rape and mugging simulator" line, ok?

Quote: "You took offense to that?"


I take offense to people sensationalizing things in a game, when they either a.) were not intended by the developer, or b.) not even true.

Quote: "Oh really? Then how did it get in there? Explain that to me. That must be some amazing, self-programming game right there. Maybe TGC out to invest in that technology. And while their at it, invest in 'hot coffee.'"


You're the sarcastic one here.

As a developer with an interest in AI, I can sometimes tell when certain things were as intended. What I mean by that is, the developers designed the game so that you can shoot ANYONE and run down ANYONE in the game--- friend, foe, random old lady, etc., and they drop money when they die. They also designed the game so that you can have sex with a prostitute. Their intention wasn't so you can bang a prostitute, then shoot her to get your money back. That is a situational outcome. You can do A and/or B and/or C etc. You can also do A then B or B then C. It doesn't mean the developers intended the players to do it in that order.

This is why people like Jack Thompson can't understand intent. Sure, the developers could have just removed the prostitutes entirely from the game. They could have also made it so old ladies are invincible to cars and guns, which would be really silly obviously.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 01:05 Edited at: 19th Feb 2008 01:08
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Quote: "This is why people like Jack Thompson can't understand intent. Sure, the developers could have just removed the prostitutes entirely from the game. They could have also made it so old ladies are invincible to cars and guns, which would be really silly obviously."


It would also have been really lame if they didn't drop any money when you run them over after you finished with them.

(it would have been fairly easy to program an exception in there that makes prostitutes not drop money)

It was probably something that was discussed, and because the game is meant for people 17 and older, it was decided to be left in since adults can handle things like this.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 01:05
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Uhm, Jeku, I've just tried, but running her over and then stopping the car next to her didn't get her in the car for the job. Also, I had difficulty grabbing the money before killing her.

J/k.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 08:44
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Quote: "if we can't show children dieing why is it that in Prey they shopw kids gertting killed by a demon?"
Can't remember saying "can't". Infact I said if you wanted the most attention (ie. money) for the least amount of effort then go down the bad taste route (really, check out the JFK game for not much effort). Thanks to good old freedom of speech you can pretty much do anything almost. Apart from obviously show pictures of some people's prophets...

All I was saying is people really start drawing the line when it comes to violence against children. A lot of people would download the JFK game just because they heard about it on the news, only because of the outrage it caused. Not so sure how many would download school shooting games (adults that is), but the way things are going it will probably become less and less of a shocking idea. Once that happens then we will move on to Super Pedophile Simulator and see how long that takes to simmer down.

Cheers

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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 15:28
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Quote: "Once that happens then we will move on to Super Pedophile Simulator and see how long that takes to simmer down."


Yea...i don't EVER see that happening

"Originally I was going to have a BS on it but you know how that would be. I can't walk around with the letters BS on me." More or less a qoute by Syndrome from Jack, Jack, attack
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Dazzag
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 19:53 Edited at: 19th Feb 2008 19:53
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Quote: "Yea...i don't EVER see that happening"
Probably could just about get away with a game based on Monkey Dust's Pedofinder General... Actually a game based on the Monkey Dust Crusades or Ivan & Mr Hoppy would be quite interesting... You may notice I absolutely love that show...

Cheers

Oooh, just found the crusades:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEVJ_48YgTg&feature=related

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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 22:31
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Lets get this thread back on track.

Here are the unanswered questions so far:

1. If no one is killed in lover of games school shooting game, does that make the game idea more acceptable?

2. Now that we know what the touchy spot is, as Tha_rami has highlighted for us, can that touchy spot be avoided to make the game less likely to piss people off.

3. Instead of thinking about 'how much can we take out of the school shooting game to make it acceptable' think about 'starting with the cleanest, purist, most politically correct school shooting game.' What does that look like? And then start adding in elements that may be questionable (in order of least questionable to most questionable) and lets see which ones are good and which ones shouldn't be included.

Once again, I think the game is possible, but not without a lot of work and being aware of the emotions the game is stirring up or what the games message is.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Van B
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 23:57
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Personally the only way I think it would be possible to have a school based shooter, and not get too much flak, would be a hostage type situation. If your not killing kids or witnessing them being killed, just terrorists (or whatever), then you could concentrate on a hero aspect, getting into the school and saving the kids from terrorists - I mean there's a movie with a similar theme.
The important thing I think is to avoid even hinting at kids being killed, have them holed up in a classroom for example, not in the actual conflict.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 02:51
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Yeah, I agree with you Van. Maybe your main character is in love with a girl and the kid climbs through the air ducts to get to her or something and then they try to escape.


And for some reason I picture this game in 2D Does anyone else? I just can't picture this in 3D. I don't know why

I think of it, and it looks like a 2D Metal Gear Solid, where you have to avoid detection and sneak around the level as quickly as you can.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Dazzag
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 08:27
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Only downside there is that you are a kid trying to save your girlfriend or whatever. Failing in your mission will basically mean you and probably your girlfriend get killed. Not good as once again we are back at school massacre.

Personally I think the most politically correct game you can make on the subject would be a prevention game. Basically you spend time in school as a kid and use loads of methods to ID the problem kids and get evidence to shop them to the cops. If you fail then they get stopped by someone else or something. ie. no school massacre whatever happens.

Cheers

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tha_rami
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 08:32 Edited at: 20th Feb 2008 08:40
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I like Dazzags idea, but I'd like to make an amendment. If you fail to notice the AK47 that the silent kid brought along, that kid goes haywire and kills

To amend to something else Dazzag seemed to imply: I think religion is a totally different subject, as we're talking something that affects 1.5 BILLION people there. Freedom of speech nowadays seems to approve disrespect and offending people and their fundamental basics.

I think, though, that if you're to tackle such subject, you should not hold back too much but at the same time keep it clean. I mean, the girlfriend scenario is perfectly good. If you got hit by a barrel in Donkey Kong, that pretty much implied the princess would end up either raped or dead. By a monkey. With giant-monkey arms of death. Yeah.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 08:47
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Quote: "Freedom of speech nowadays seems to approve disrespect and offending people and their fundamental basics"
Depends how far you take the Freedom of speech thing. Also it depends on how much the writer will realise how much offence will be taken. Would an Aethiest know if mentioning Jesus didn't have a beard would cause offence or not? And if so then how much offence would it cause? Would people think he is a twit, or burn him at the stake?

Personally I get more offence about the AK47 point you made, but hey, you weren't to know.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Dazzag
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 08:48
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Quote: "that pretty much implied the princess would end up either raped or dead"
Golly, you must have pretty grim thoughts while watching King Kong...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 15:15
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I actually never thought it it that way when playing Donkey Kong......wow

"Originally I was going to have a BS on it but you know how that would be. I can't walk around with the letters BS on me." More or less a qoute by Syndrome from Jack, Jack, attack
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2008 20:50
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I don't think it's been officially answered as to whether i should waste my time coming up with this game, or just let it be in "Imagination Land"

"Originally I was going to have a BS on it but you know how that would be. I can't walk around with the letters BS on me." More or less a qoute by Syndrome from Jack, Jack, attack
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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2008 02:24
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Quote: "I don't think it's been officially answered as to whether i should waste my time coming up with this game, or just let it be in "Imagination Land""


What do you mean officially answered. Who here has that authority? Make up your own mind. Unless you're willing to pay for our time, we're not your legal counsel


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