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Geek Culture / Grand Theft Auto IV

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Van B
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 14:13
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Funny, it's only really the NHL sports games that I like - I can't stand Fifa, I always wish there was a way to get revenge on the players, at least with hockey you can exact some sort of revenge.

I wouldn't agree that GTA has less graphical impact than new games, the way I see it the scope and detail in GTA is perfect, no GTA fan on this earth would swap it's size for anything, certainly not for pretty graphics. If GTA got more detailed graphics then everything else would suffer, we'd end up with limited gameplay.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 15:59 Edited at: 10th Mar 2008 16:00
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Quote: "Also, you'd have trouble naming *any* of the top publishers who didn't merge, buy small companies, or get bought out in one way or another. Were you so mad when Square and Enix joined? Or when Sammy bought Sega? I don't recall you caring much when Activision and Vivendi joined forces a few months ago. Typical EA bashing "

I don't really care about mergers as much as studios buying out IP instead of gambling on something original. It's the financial risk factor of doing something original that sees IP switch hands over time, isn't it? Again, this is something we've argued about for years and while I see your point, I just can't come to terms with accepting it. I'd rather take a chance and throw the dice on generating fresh IP, with an engine made from scratch and assets that were developed from the ground up instead of being overhauled, than buy someone else's ideas just to keep the cash flow going. How much are they offering to buy Take 2? And that's to acquire how many franchises... GTA and a few sports titles? Think of how many fresh new projects could be started for that sort of money!

Edit -

Quote: "I can't stand Fifa, I always wish there was a way to get revenge on the players, at least with hockey you can exact some sort of revenge."

I'm the same way with Fifa, if one of my players gets injured, I end up with every player on the pitch collecting yellows and reds, lol.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 21:30 Edited at: 10th Mar 2008 21:34
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Quote: "I'd rather take a chance and throw the dice on generating fresh IP, with an engine made from scratch and assets that were developed from the ground up instead of being overhauled"


So you even take issue with middleware developers, like Unreal 3 engine, etc.? Not every company can take 5-6 years and build a new engine from the ground up. If you look at the game industry now, there's not many new companies developing new IP with a new engine--- for one thing you have to pay the engineers, artists, and managers for 5-6 years. Even at *just* 50k each/year that would be ~$300k each. Do you think most small companies have that kind of cash?

No offense, but EE and REM, while they might be innovative (I've never played them), they won't sell unless they're either a.) built with an impressive next-gen engine, or b.) so incredibly different that even a low-tech solution will be ok (i.e. AudioSurf).

Anyways, you're using DBP, which is a middleware product, so already you're doing what you said you don't like

EDIT:

Quote: "How much are they offering to buy Take 2? And that's to acquire how many franchises... GTA and a few sports titles? Think of how many fresh new projects could be started for that sort of money!"


$2 billion. Yes, that could create a good chunk of original IP. But look at it this way:

1 out of 10 games makes money. That's old and new IP. That 1 game that makes money has to keep the company afloat for making 9 games that LOSE money. Buying up IP like GTA, which is guaranteed to make tons of profit, is worth it to a large public company who has to answer to shareholders.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 23:47
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I didn't really mean to rip on middleware stuff like that, it sort of came out wrong... I meant more that I'd rather see a completely unique game come out of a studio like EA or Activision than Medal of Honor 37, with one or two additional features to help players kill nazis lol.

What I'm driving at overall is that these big conglomerates are starting to hurt the creative flow of the game industry. How many games are based on completely original IP these days, compared to games belonging to franchises or games based on licensed IP? If you compare that to ten years ago, there's a major difference. That's why I'm so confident that teams like MISoft and Ninja Bee are on the verge of massive success, we're doing things that the mainstream companies are simply afraid to try, and if it doesn't work financially, at least we can be proud of making a title that did something new. Of course, making the money would be nice lol, but I'd honestly rather make games I love and just get by than rehash someone else's idea and make billions from it. I mean how many of EA's or Activision-Blizzard's shareholders even play the games they're earning money from? I simply wouldn't care what shareholders think, and that's why we can't be a corporation and have to file as an LLC this summer

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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 00:04 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 00:05
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Quote: "I meant more that I'd rather see a completely unique game come out of a studio like EA or Activision than Medal of Honor 37"


Take a look at the list of new IP EA has created just last fiscal year. Skate, Playground, Army of Two, Ninja Reflex, and many more that I can't name right now. Anyways, if 5 million+ customers are buying Need For Speed every year, then the market is demanding it. EA will stop making the games when they stop selling

Quote: "What I'm driving at overall is that these big conglomerates are starting to hurt the creative flow of the game industry."


How is it hurting the "creative flow" of the game industry? There were tons of new IP released recently from the big companies. Hell, just look at Crysis, which was perhaps one of the more expensive new IP projects (which, by the way, did crap on sales and is one of the examples of why so few companies are willing to take the risk).

Communism simply doesn't work, Matt. The world takes money to to keep moving. You can only make so many games that sell 50 copies before you realize you need to do something else with your company.

And this isn't a dig at your company, but I've played games like REM before, so it's not exactly a revolutionary new game design. And weren't you talking about EE 2 a while back? A sequel!


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Libervurto
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 01:36 Edited at: 12th Mar 2008 01:42
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It's not that EA aren't innovative, in fact I think they're very innovative, but they will always produce EA games. There needs to be diversity to keep the industry healthy.

Sequels aren't a bad thing at all, games are totally different from films in that fact. A game engine can be pushed further and explored a lot before it is redundant; Look at the difference between GTA III and GTA San Andreas.
It's when little is done with the engine that people get annoyed.

I'm just waiting for something that isn't "another" bloody FPS game! That's all there is for PS3 and the moment! I hate them, they are so boring, I played Resistance Fall of Man and got bored within five minutes! After that I walked around looking at the pretty graphics and shooting the windows (awesome effects!).
I also played Army of Two, I liked the game but couldn't enjoy it because it is the same as every other game! Why are almost all games about killing people? I also found the whole Al Qaeda thing a bit too close to home to be fun.
Hopefully GTA IV will shut me up (I know you kill people in it)

[edit]
To those who came here for GTA IV news I wont be able to update anything as I have no computer! Bad timing for this thread but hopefully I can get back online in time to post updates of some use.
It's been good practice for me on good layouts for posting things like this.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 03:09
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Quote: "How is it hurting the "creative flow" of the game industry?"

Because every year we see fewer and fewer unique titles, and as a designer, even a lowly indie one, that frightens me. I dunno, my head understands the concept of spending $50 million buying someone else's IP instead of spending an equal amount developing something new, and the lessened risk factor in doing something like that, but my heart thinks it's wrong... I won't change your opinion on this lol, we've been down this road before .

Quote: "weren't you talking about EE 2 a while back? A sequel!"

It sounds insane, but so long as there's even a single fan of the EE series, we'll finish the trilogy just for that one fan. And we've of course been listening to players and the general public, and I think we found a few ways to broaden the potential base for EE with the features we're adding into EE2, while keeping it true to its roots. Worst case scenario, it bombs and we never make another IF title again, and come away with a 100% original scripting language .

@ the MISoft stuff:
Of course I want MISoft to succeed financially, but I think there's such a thing as wanting too much. I'm sure this quote will be taken out of context or misinterpreted by someone, but... if you want a Big Mac, visit EA. But if you want a homecooked meal, from a family cookbook of experimental recipes that taste just as good (and sometimes taste better) than a Big Mac, and you're not afraid to visit a little family restaurant for it, then buy a game from MISoft Studios. The atmosphere is far friendlier, we're much more likely to take your advice when you think our food is too spicy, and we'll actually remember your name when you come in to see us again. Will we make as much money as the international fastfood joint? Heck no! But will we make food that's cooked with love and earn enough in profit to live comfortably, or even slightly beyond our means? Yes, absolutely and without question... and that's all we can really ask for .
[/badanalogy]

To swing that back on topic... the Big Mac is original, but the rest of the menu is pretty cut and paste... a fish sandwich, a bready chicken sandwich, a non-bready chicken sandwich, a salad for people who want to think the burgers and fries aren't making them fat... but at the proverbial "MISoft Diner," you can get an entree of, I dunno, shrimp pizza. Okay, you know what? I officially give up on this metaphoric stuff, it's making me hungry

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 05:02
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Hmm shame, shame--- making a sequel instead of creating new IP? Tsk tsk


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 15:04
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lol well sequels are fine, it's not like we bought EE from Ninja Bee or Biofox . And you know me, if you think my posts are long what do you think the stories in the games I design are like lol, they can't be told in one game!

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Duplex
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 20:53
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I don't mind if the series brings something new each time but games like Need For Speed, FIFA and Medal of Honour, they are all the same basicly, except from a new map and story and maybe a new gun.

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 23:45
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It's starting --- the ball is rolling and EA is proposing to buy the shares of Take 2 straight from the shareholders.

In case anyone thinks Take 2 is the innocent angel in this deal, consider they've given the execs huge bonuses this week and offering severance for 18 months at 1.5 times their pay.

http://kotaku.com/367439/take+two-just-say-no-to-ea


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 23:56
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For Jeku, this is like watching the ball drop in Times Square. For some of us, it's like that ball in Raiders, rolling because someone stirred an ancient diety, lol. Oh yeah baby, metaphoric-talk is back on track . Anyway, I'm still opposed to it, and even more opposed to it now that they're going after shareholders independently. I'm sure you beg to differ Jeku, but I'm telling you right now... no good can come of this, not for Take 2 or its fans anyway.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 00:07
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What does IP stand for? Is it the game engine?
You could say that GTA IV is a sequel to Table Tennis
I wish I could write a game engine
I waste so much good code because it isn't modular enough.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 00:26 Edited at: 14th Mar 2008 00:28
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Quote: "Anyway, I'm still opposed to it, and even more opposed to it now that they're going after shareholders independently."


Dude, that's common business tactics. If I were you I'd stay well away from business school or anything like that because you'd disagree with everything

That's good for the shareholders! I wish I would have bought stock in Take 2 back when they were making crappy 3DO games!

Quote: "What does IP stand for? Is it the game engine?"


Intellectual Property. i.e. Mickey Mouse is IP owned by Disney, as is GTA IP owned by Take 2.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 00:31
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If EA do complete a buy out (in whatever way) I hope they are smart and keep the Rockstar label, but they might just gobble them up like they never existed.
If they buy out the stock then Wont Take 2 still have some control?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 04:24 Edited at: 14th Mar 2008 04:25
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Quote: "Dude, that's common business tactics."

I know, I'm just wondering what the developers at Rockstar and other internal studios are thinking right now. If they belong to anything that doesn't have a big "R" stamped on it, they should be extremely terrified by this possible buyout. You just know EA is going to liquidate Take 2's non-Rockstar assets. They'll probably be cool and ship off some employees to other internals, but I feel bad for the people getting the axe if this goes through.

Edit:
Quote: "If EA do complete a buy out (in whatever way) I hope they are smart and keep the Rockstar label, but they might just gobble them up like they never existed."

There's no way they'd kill off the biggest cash cow at Take 2. They may dissolve everything else, but they wouldn't dare mess with Rockstar... people like me would never buy another EA game again, lol. Plus, how many EA games have sold as much as the GTA franchise? A few I'm sure, but certianly not many. In all seriousness, this is a buyout of that single franchise more than anything else.

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Van B
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 10:26
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If EA did disolve Rockstar North, or move it out of Scotland, or even try to do anything like that I'd never buy another EA game. Business is one thing, 100,000 angry Scotsmen is something altogether different .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 08:52
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Well, the thing to remember is Take 2 is *not* an underdog. And they have publicly said they will talk about a deal with EA after GTA IV is released. Obviously everyone is being greedy here, not just EA

Interesting things will happen, as there's a deadline several weeks from now when Take 2 will be forced to make a move.


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