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Geek Culture / Top 5 exotic supercars?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 23:17
I'm working on a new game design and I figured I'd stir up a debate about what everyone here thinks are the top 5 "exotic" cars in the world (modern preferably, say, 1985 to present day). The reason I'm asking for your opinions here is because, while I do like cars quite a bit, I'm not very obsessed with them, so it'd probably be best to get multiple opinions. So what are your top 5 exotic sports cars? Feel free to debate each other's lists, it'll help me in the long run! It also helps me considerably if you debate the legitimacy of someone's listed vehicle as a supercar or exotic, as I only have a broad understanding of what that actually defines.

Note: "tuner" cars don't count... no one would call a Nissan Skyline, for instance, an exotic (unless I'm wrong, in which case correct me, preferably with evidence lol), and regardless of how you tune your Honda Civic, it won't keep up with any of the cars I've listed below, and even if it did, it wouldn't be as beautiful, lol. Also, please specify if you have a general order-less list, or if it's a specific, as-ordered top five. And please fight the urge to add more cars as it sort of defeats my needs lol. I'd really appreciate your help here .

Anyway, here's my list, in this order:

(1) Bugatti Veryon - Fastest car in the world without a rocket strapped to it, faster acceleration than a Harrier Jumpjet on takeoff, and according to Top Gear, it does all of this in a smooth and manageable way.

(2) Ferrari Enzo - Sorry for yet another Top Gear video. The Enzo is gorgeous, sounds like an angel is falling to earth on fire, and the fact that you can't buy one unless Ferrari selects you, I dunno, it's just such an awesome vehicle. I had a hard time putting this at number 2 really.

(3) Aston Martin V12 Vanquish - The ferocious engine note, the sleek appearance, and the mere fact that it's an Aston Martin... this is one of the three cars I absolutely must own someday, and the only one of my true "dream cars" that made this list.

(4) Lotus Exige - It's comparably low pricetag almost kept me from adding this to my list, but come on, it's a Lotus!

(5) Dodge Viper SRT-10 - In my opinion, it's the only American car ever built that could be considered an "exotic," and even then, it relies on an engine designed by Lamborghini. It narrowly edged out the Jaguar XK simply because the XK looks too much like an Aston Martin DB9 for me to consider it a genuinely unique car .

5Louiz
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 23:27
The only car I actually enjoy looking at is Aston Martin V8 Vantage. Cars do not excite me.

Mr Tank
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 00:12 Edited at: 8th Mar 2008 00:13
Caparo T1 - probably the fastest road legal machine around a track.

SSC Ultimate Aero - Faster than the Veyron. Much higher power to weight and much lighter, so likely faster accelerating and better handling at most speeds. The Veyron probably has better low speed acceleration and handling due to the AWD, but that's it. Not half as much fame / kudos though.

Koenissegg - Hella fast, and the CCGT looks like the best thing ever.

Countach, Diablo, Murcielago, Gallardo, Reventon etc. Awesome. Real supercars, by the definition that speed isn't quite as important as looking really cool. Spandex clad ladies are an optional extra.

F40. Don't really need to explain this.

The obvious choices are probably more sensible - Maclaren F1, Veyron. Bit overrated perhaps, but still probably the best "supercars". I always thought it a bit gay that the Bugatti's spoiler only goes down if you park it and use a special key. Plus it could be significantly better if the aesthetes/fashionistas had given the engineers a bit more freedom.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 00:43
Suzuki Swift. Heh.

I've read the Veyron does 2mpg at full speed. Is this true?


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:37 Edited at: 8th Mar 2008 01:40
Quote: "I've read the Veyron does 2mpg at full speed. Is this true?"

Watch that video I posted from top gear... it has a massive W16 engine... basically two 8 cylinder engines on top of each other. And to keep this massive power base cool, it has ten... yes, ten... radiators. Other cars only have one. And to achieve its top speed, you need to insert a special key into it that lowers the suspension and drops the rear spoiler to maximize its ability to hit its top speed.

But hey, find me a Prius that can move so fast that it's crossing a football pitch ever second .

Quote: "I always thought it a bit gay that the Bugatti's spoiler only goes down if you park it and use a special key. Plus it could be significantly better if the aesthetes/fashionistas had given the engineers a bit more freedom."

The Veryon isn't designed to look pretty, it's designed to be the fastest car in the world and maintain stability while reaching that speed. When you give engineers that sort of freedom to design a car that looks pretty and still goes fast, you get...

Quote: "SSC Ultimate Aero - Faster than the Veyron. Much higher power to weight and much lighter, so likely faster accelerating and better handling at most speeds. The Veyron probably has better low speed acceleration and handling due to the AWD, but that's it. Not half as much fame / kudos though."

According to what I've gathered from it's Wiki entry, it only beat the Veryon by 2.35 MPH, and it required absolutely perfect conditions to achieve this. It accelerates and decelerates slower than the Bugatti, apparently has worse handling across the board, and let's face it, it isn't a Bugatti .

And check this out... on Top Gear, they raced a Veryon against a Eurofighter Typhoon (a fighter jet) for god's sake! Off the line, the Veryon accelerates faster... the Eurofighter had to kick up its afterburners to outrun it, and even though the Eurofighter won, the Veryon crossed the finish line immediately afterwards. I'll bet if the Stig were driving instead of Hammond, we'd have seen the Bugatti win . My point really is that while the Ultimate Aero may be a couple of miles per hour faster than the Bugatti, it isn't nearly as cool, hence no one chatting it up as much

Phaelax
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:41
Quote: "Sorry for yet another Top Gear video"


nothing to be sorry for there mate, great show. Speaking of Top Gear, they've announced the host of the american version will be................ adam corolla. Yes, the guy from the man show.

Aero and Koengseggeseggsegsegggsggggg, good choices from Tank. I'd like to add to the board the Ascari shown on season 10 of top gear.


Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:43
Adam Corolla? Are you kidding me? I absolutely will not watch the American version, simple as that. The guy shares his name with a genuinely crappy economy car from Toyota, I mean really, who thought that up?!?

Phaelax
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:44
I don't think we'll like anyone they pick, just for the simple fact its not jeremy clarkson. But apparently, Adam knows his cars well from what we've been hearing. Personally, I think the show will fail, but I'll give it a small chance first.


Osiris
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:46
Adam Corolla sucks....the Man show was dumb too, hes just gonna turn Top Gear into another Man Show, but with cars (occasionally).

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:47
I don't understand why they don't just syndicate Top Gear to American broadcasters. It's probably because they aren't too friendly to Americans lol. And if that's the case, then the American version of the show is going to focus on crappy American "muscle" cars like the Mustang and the Corvette, or maybe the Saleen, and I'm sorry, I'll take a Ferrari F430 over the lot of them any day of the week lol.

Phaelax
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:54
Top Gear rarely covers an american car, and when they do they hate it purely on the fact its american, like the chrysler 300c. They probably hate it cause it resembles a bentley yet costs $200k less.


Mr Tank
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 02:07 Edited at: 8th Mar 2008 02:18
Quote: "The Veryon isn't designed to look pretty, it's designed to be the fastest car in the world and maintain stability while reaching that speed. "

The brief was basically for it to take the production car top speed record, and be comfortable, and to look a certain way. Without the constraint of somebody saying "we want it to look like this", they could have made it a more capable machine. I guess the end goal is to get brand recognition and sell VWs though. As a marketing exercise I can't fault it.

Quote: "According to what I've gathered from it's Wiki entry, it only beat the Veryon by 2.35 MPH, and it required absolutely perfect conditions to achieve this. It accelerates and decelerates slower than the Bugatti, apparently has worse handling across the board, and let's face it, it isn't a Bugatti ."

0-60 is about as irrelevant as top speed. It's an indicator of overall performance, and good for top trumps. Acceleration at moderate speeds where it matters the SSC should be better, owing to it's superior power to weight. The perfect conditions thing isn't right either really. Apparently the road had a bend in the middle, but that's kind of irrelevant. I imagine the Veyron, Macca F1 and everything set their speed records on an oval or airfield on a sunny day. Seems logical.

It bothers me intensely when i look at youtube and the videos for the Ultimate Aero speed record whatever, and it's full of idiots saying "This car is crap. I'd rather have the Veyron. It has a nicer interior etc." They are completely missing the point.

Asides from the goal, and accomplishment of breaking the production car speed record, they are quite different machines. One is supposed to be hella heavy and luxurious, the other is designed more for performance. I agree the Veyron is a really awesome car, but when people one minute say "it's magical and brilliant because it goes 250 something mph - the fastest car in the world!!!", and then you say "there's something faster", and they say "yeah but that doesn't matter because mumbles mumbles mumbles", it really gets my goat.

The Eurofighter thing is pretty meaningless of course. Fun to watch though.

Quote: "I'd like to add to the board the Ascari shown on season 10 of top gear"


Yes. That's quite lovely.

Honourable mentions. Dauer 962. It's a Group C car with number plates. Ultima GTR. Faster than anything on the Top Gear track board, and it's got plenty of ground clearance. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CKX2KZruc3E

I think the Caparo actually has as much ground clearance as a Koenissegg. They just didn't want it to sit on the top forever.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 04:49
Quote: "0-60 is about as irrelevant as top speed. It's an indicator of overall performance, and good for top trumps. Acceleration at moderate speeds where it matters the SSC should be better, owing to it's superior power to weight. The perfect conditions thing isn't right either really. Apparently the road had a bend in the middle, but that's kind of irrelevant. I imagine the Veyron, Macca F1 and everything set their speed records on an oval or airfield on a sunny day. Seems logical."

0-60 and other rating of acceleration are quite relevant, they denote acceleration at various levels, and for some scientific reason that's well beyond my mental scope, 0-60 and 0-100 are both extremely important, or so I've gathered from recent research. Also, if you read the article I linked to, the Veryon is faster across the board with acceleration at every level, and if you google this, you'll find numerous articles claiming the Veryon outhandles/ outperforms the Aero in every conceivable way . Also in that article I linked to, they said conditions were less than perfect, and the Aero was only able to reach speeds in the 240-ish area.

At the end of the day, the Bugatti clearly outperforms the Aero in every possible way, except the top speed, at which the grain of the track or the density of the air could dramatically alter the performance in favor of either car. When they're off the track, you have to judge them by style (from a consumer standpoint, that's what counts, am I wrong?) and the Veryon is, well, gorgeous. Until I see both cars race 20 laps at Les Mans, I won't be convinced the Aero is better .

The Koenissegg is sexy and fast, but scares me lol. That the Stig couldn't keep it under control... I'd kill myself

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 05:02
Jeku
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 09:48 Edited at: 8th Mar 2008 09:49
Dude! I was just going to post the Delorean! It's my absolute favourite car, other than a '49 Ford Mercury.


Roxas
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 12:56
1) Lotus Elise

2) Noble M15 (Cheap)


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El Goorf
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 14:38 Edited at: 8th Mar 2008 14:38
every day on my walk to classes/lectures, i walk past an aston martin, mazerati(sp), ferrari, and BMW showroom, all one after the other (with citroen amongst them >.>, reminding me to do well in my studies.

the occassional lambo will speed by too. of course, everyone living in this area drives in souped up civic r's.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 14:40
I like the lotus elise, noble gt, and nissan skyline for their power/cost ratio

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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 15:42
ZOMG x100 No1 has said lambo WTF!

I say Lamborghini Murcielago or Lamborghini Diablo have to be in there as well.

Also y not the Zonda cause it goes fast

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Grandma
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 16:06
Lamborghini Diablo has been in my heart ever since i played "The need for speed" back in '95.

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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 9th Mar 2008 03:24
lol yer same, i got Need for Speed III: Hot Pursuit i think, or was it Need for Speed: High Stakes ....oh well i dont know, but i like Lambo's from then on

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 9th Mar 2008 05:26
I was partial to the Ferrari in the original NFS (the only good game on the 3D0 as I remember it). Then again, the 1980's Testerosa was crap

BiggAdd
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Posted: 9th Mar 2008 05:56 Edited at: 9th Mar 2008 06:06
I wouldn't mind a Mercedes-Benz SLR Mclaren Roadster... Problem is I can't fit in the bloody thing... I've tried.
Arrrrrr!
Being 6'9" has its drawbacks.

Scrap the Merc... I'd much prefer the Lamborghini Reventón
Now that is a nice car!

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Posted: 9th Mar 2008 23:42
Quote: "Lamborghini Diablo has been in my heart ever since i played "The need for speed" back in '95."


Same.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 09:41
Real world exotic cars for me are probably Exiges, Nobles, and TVRs. If you can handle breaking down then go with a TVR. Awesome cars. My old boss used to have a TVR Griffin and you could hear him coming a mile away when working on a weekend so the entire company stopped playing network Doom games (support vs development mainly).

Oh and as for Exiges, my girlfriend has a suped up Elise (ace for 0-60 in about 4.9 secs, but not so good to 100mph), and god is it hard to get out of until you get the knack Awesome car though.

Cheers

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 16:22
TVR's would be on my top 15 or so, but of all the British supercars it's probably my least favorite.

I might be going to war with the British supercar now, btw...

I was working on this project yesterday, and decided to tour a few websites to look into options. The MINI Cooper website allows you to customize a MINI with whatever options you want (and without question it's easily the best website I've ever seen for slapping options onto a car). When I eventually have the money to buy a new car, I have about twelve saved MINIs to choose from, lol. Anyway, I decided to see if manufacturers of exotics had similar "build your dream car" options on their website. I'm upset to report that many, including Ferrari, don't offer anything like this. But some do however... Aston Martin allows it, and Lotus lets you dream a bit as well. And so naturally I decided to throw together my "dream Aston" and "dream Lotus" to see how much they cost. This is where the trouble set in for me, and quickly...

No British Racing Green!!! Lotus cars all allow it as an option, and even MINI Cooper does. But Aston Martin and Jaguar have seemingly ditched one of the most famous car colors in the world. On Aston Martin's website, I can order a DBS in "Casino Royale," but not British Racing Green? Quite frankly, I don't want a British exotic in any other color. There's a heritage there that I'm not as willing to forget about, and in my opinion, the Aston isn't as pretty in any other color.

And why don't more exotics manufacturers, namely Ferrari, allow you to daydream and customize an exotic? Seriously, before I did that on the MINI website, I "sort of" wanted a MINI Cooper S, but after designing one (especially with so many options) I quickly decided that the very next car I purchase is going to be a MINI. Sure, most of the people who play on those websites won't actually be purchasing a car soon, but allowing the public to play with settings can only help with spreading the word in the future, am I wrong? I dunno, just a few complaints I've come up with in the past day or two

Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 00:42 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 00:50
Quote: "There's a heritage there that I'm not as willing to forget about, and in my opinion, the Aston isn't as pretty in any other color"
I'm British and know quite a lot of people with enough money, and really no-one under 50 really cares

Quote: "I have about twelve saved MINIs to choose from"
Are we talking the tiny British classic, or the oversized German effort?

Quote: "but of all the British supercars it's probably my least favorite"
Dunno, TVRs are something else. Some of the engines can make Astons sound like a french car. And acceleration is nuts. Did you see that Top Gear episode where they beat a speed camera in one? Awesome. I've never *quite* got the looks of a TVR until this one:-

Oh dear lord, that is one awesome car. Seriously wrestling with the idea of getting one, but dunno if could put up with breakdowns that always come from TVR. But just look at it...

Cheers
Ps. Oh yeah, and that TVR (straight out of factory) apparently does 0-62mph in 3.6 seconds and 0-100mph in 8.1 seconds. Nice...

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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 03:35
Quote: "I wouldn't mind a Mercedes-Benz SLR Mclaren Roadster"


Top Gear, season 6 episode 5.... just watched it last night in their race to Oslo.


Quote: "Ps. Oh yeah, and that TVR (straight out of factory) apparently does 0-62mph in 3.6 seconds "

aww, my jag only does it in 5sec, time for a new car!


Xenocythe
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 03:44
I always think the title says 'superstars', so I'm thinking... "what does Matt do in his spare time?"


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 04:24
LOL you're horrible Xeno

Roxas
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 08:11
Quote: "I always think the title says 'superstars', so I'm thinking... "what does Matt do in his spare time?""


Haha! Same


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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 09:50
Quote: "aww, my jag only does it in 5sec, time for a new car!"
My bird's car does it in 4.9sec. You Fail!

Seriously though, I just found out I can get a similar age 911 for about the same price as that TVR and that comes with all the toys. Plus it's a 911 (have said I will buy one since being a kid). Seems seriously slow compared to that TVR though (Carrera S is about 4.7 0-60 I believe).

Cheers

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 12:51
The shoddy BMW mini I'm afraid, but I dunno, I like the new MINIs.

I guess I should give TVR a second chance, that's a seriously pretty car. The older Tuscans are what I always think of, with the loose-ish hull that shakes about in corners, and an engine note similar to a Citroen going through a meat grinder... it scarred my view of TVR for years seeing that thing on TV, hehe. Do they sell them in America? I've seen Lotus', and Aston Martins, and obviously Jaguars, but never a TVR in the States.

Quote: "I always think the title says 'superstars', so I'm thinking... "what does Matt do in his spare time?""

That would imply Matt has spare time I work almost as hard as Dink, you don't understand how physically exhaustive cracking a whip can be!

Venge
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 13:26
Quote: "Do they sell them in America?"


I've never seen any dealerships, then again I'd never heard of TVR before I played Gran Turismo 4

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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 13:39
Quote: "Do they sell them in America?"
Doubt there is a main dealer. More imported private ones I would imagine. I mean they are pretty rare in the UK too. I'm kind of liking the extras of pretty much every other car though. You know, airbags, power assisted steering, stereo etc etc. Heh heh, you should see my bird's Elise. Is well nice, but is like sitting (more like lying) in a large version of what you made in metal work as a kid Plus *no* extras whatsoever. Apparently the *hole* for the stereo was an optional extra at one point. Nice...

But you can sum up most TVRs like this : Gorgeous, *scaringly* fast, not actually *that* expensive, *no* extras really, *very very very* loud, and very likely to breakdown at the drop of a hat

Cheers

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 14:03
Yeah, all things considered I'll stick with my desire to steal your girlfriend's Elise lol. Unless it's some color that isn't BRG

Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 18:15
Nope, it's red with jet black alloys. Almost identical to the standard model except the upgraded rear bit because it's a faster version. Never seen a BRG Elise actually. My personal fave is gun metal with the same colour alloys. The next one she wants is red with a double white stripe down it. Nice. Oh, and I really like the black Exige with the same black alloys. Really nice...

Cheers

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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 18:22
Rats I'm extremely pulled by this:-
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/LOTUS+EXIGE/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146,N-4294962904-4294967171/advert.action?R=200810305349298&distance=151&postcode=RG12+0gq&channel=CARS&make=LOTUS&model=EXIGE&min_pr=&max_pr=&max_mileage=
Major high spec for an Elise/Exige (Air con!!!). Only downside is they are almost identical to Elises. Would look a bit daft with 2 similar cars in the driveway. Plus have you seen the space in the boot? I mean you can get a laptop bag in there maybe. But thats about it. My parents come to visit and we will have to drive both cars to pick them up from the airport and they better have packed only their smalls

Cheers

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Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 02:55
I don't think companies are allowed to sell TVR in the states due to certain regulations. And the only way to import one here is in pieces(body and engine separate) and rebuild the car as a 'kit' car.


Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 09:32
That sucks. Nothing like the sound of a TVR. And hardly anything on 4 wheels beats it's acceleration. And some of them look amazing.

Saying that, Astons are pretty good in the sound department, and so is a massively accelerating Ferrari (the right model sounds like an F1 car).

Cheers

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Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 09:38
Quote: "They probably hate it cause it resembles a bentley yet costs $200k less"
Nope, it's because American cars can't go around corners and are the size of a house.

Talking of which, have you seen an Elise in real life? Damn things are so low it is unbelievable. Total pocket car that you get worried people in 4x4s can actually see you when changing lanes (they don't always). Fun when you have no ABS, Air bags, etc etc.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Matt Rock
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Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 12th Mar 2008 14:59
The Ferrari that makes my "dream car list" is the F430 (Top Gear vid). Unlike the 599, it has a midship engine and is more practical (well, as practical as a Ferrari can be lol).

All in all, my dream car list is nothing like my list of my favorite super cars... my favorites are pretty to look at (and listen to), but I'd never be able to actually drive most of them . So when I'm a millionaire, my garage is going to be filled with:

Ferrari F430
Aston Martin DBS (or DB9, again, I want one in BRG and I'll go older if I must!)
Lotus Elise S (the Exige has that weird ribcage on the rear window, I imagine it makes it difficult to see)
MINI Cooper S (as practical as you can get with a slappy panel gearbox)
Mazda 6 (my rain, snow, groceries, about town car)

Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 15:38
Quote: "Exige has that weird ribcage on the rear window, I imagine it makes it difficult to see"
Never been in one. On the other hand I wouldn't worry about it considering I can't hardly see anything out the back of my bird's Elise anyhows Massive blind spots and tiny window basically...

Nope, currently settled on the idea of a 911 (Carrera S or 4S with any luck). Much more practical, I've always loved them, and great reliability (watch the Top Gear episode where Jeremy does everything to it including crashing into stuff and shooting the engine and it still goes).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Phaelax
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 02:45
Quote: " And hardly anything on 4 wheels beats it's acceleration"


I think the Ascari A10, sounds better and 0-60 in under 3sec.


Xenocythe
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 04:25
I bet you noobs don't have the Honda Odyssey on your list!




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Matt Rock
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 04:42
Why no Xeno, I must say, it isn't on my list! Somehow it never crossed my mind to add it!

Agent Dink
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 06:08
How about my sexy Model T?

Here's me posing next to it. I photoshopped the image so I look exactly like Henry Ford and so the image looked like it was taken 100 years ago.



Phaelax
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 06:18
There's a guy living around here with a model T. Not exactly an exotic sports car.


Agent Dink
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 06:53
I know Just trying to make a stupider post than Xeno.

Dazzag
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 08:39
Quote: "I think the Ascari A10, sounds better and 0-60 in under 3sec."
Thats why I said hardly anything. Plus I'm sort of listing cars you have any hope of buying. That thing is like £350k ($700k). And I saw the Top Gear episode with the Ascari. Have still heard better TVRs. Close though.

Personally I'm sold on the 911 now. Awesome car, affordable (in comparison), practical (in comparison), looks fantastic, and really reliable. Plus I always wanted one and said I would have one since I was 3. Time for some test drives methinks.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."

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