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Geek Culture / Bluray already outdated ?

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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 22:31
a friend of mine that works with technology told me that bluray will be replaced in about 3-4 years.
Does anyone know if this is true ?
I love movies and collect them so its important for me as i have planned to buy a bluray player
cheers
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 22:34
Yeh, I heeard they're calling it RedRay, real imaginative....

Frankie Pawnage5
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 22:37
Quote: "RedRay"

well it rolls off the tongue easier, lol.

dude if you really want a turkey sandwich, then make one, and make ham.sdaF?
Accoun
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 22:39
Quote: "Yeh, I heeard they're calling it RedRay, real imaginative...."

Lol...

Make games, not war.

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 22:41
Is there alot of problems with bluray ?
Mahoney
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 22:45
Quote: "Is there alot of problems with bluray ? "


No. It's just far too expensive for the average person. Then again, I suppose that's what the PS3 is for.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:08
Perhaps a better question is "Bluray is pointless?"

Just enjoy the movie and quit fretting over the details which you won't notice if you're actually enjoying it!

Should I continue coding or focus on my art? Vote here:
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NeX, the creator of a billion failed projects.
El Goorf
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:14
Technically redray is what current dvd's use. bluray gets its name from the fact the laser emits blue light instead of the old fashioned red. blue light has a shorter wavelength hence bluray readers can read at a higher resolution, and more data cant be fitted on the disks.

of course bluray will become obsolete eventually, but only in the same way that blu is replacing dvd and dvd replaced cd-rom. unless we change to a media that doesnt involve a spinning disk, bluray disks will still be useful in the future, just like bluray drives can read dvds and cds.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:25
I just watch my movies on my computer, works just fine for me.


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:31 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2008 23:32
BluRays might be replaced with Holographic Discs, if they manage to get the cost down and sell them to the public.

bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:35
Quote: "a friend of mine that works with technology told me that bluray will be replaced in about 3-4 years."


nah, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Blu-ray will be around for a very, very long time.

My guess is that solid state drives will be the next incarnation for distributed media, in 10+ years, we'll wait and see!


It's not just for BYOND you know!
JoelJ
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:49
Quote: "No. It's just far too expensive for the average person."

So were DVDs/Players when they first came out. But I definitely agree... BR disks are WAY expensive.
And according to Steve Jobs over at Apple, the licensing is rather messed up. Which is why Apple isn't supporting bluray yet.


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Mahoney
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 23:52
Quote: "And according to Steve Jobs over at Apple, the licensing is rather messed up. Which is why Apple isn't supporting bluray yet."


Yeah. Their whole "HCDP(?)" system is retarded. It's already been bypassed (Pirate Bay, anyone?) and just makes it more difficult to watch them legally.

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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 00:01
I've been itching to get a Blu-Ray burner for my PC for backup purposes, but they're still too pricy for blanks.

I've always been fascinated with burners--- got my first CD burner (before there were even CDRWs!) in '97 for close to $800, and it took 70 minutes to burn an entire disc (of which each cost nearly $20). Then I bought a DVD burner in 2002 for roughly $500. I just can't help myself


David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 00:01
Quote: "Blu-ray will be around for a very, very long time."


BD+ was cracked fairly recently, so I doubt that


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bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 00:24
Quote: "Then I bought a DVD burner in 2002 for roughly $500. I just can't help myself "


Haha, I bought mine on my home machine for 30... plus shipping.

Quote: "BD+ was cracked fairly recently, so I doubt that"


So were dvds, and cds don't even use it. I fail to see your point.


It's not just for BYOND you know!
El Goorf
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 00:26
my laptop came with a bluray player as a £20 extra

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bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 00:29
Quote: "my laptop came with a bluray player as a £20 extra"


Wow, not bad. Must'a been a loss leader. Newegg puts them at 100usd+ (just for a reader), and that's a regular PC drive, none of that tiny laptop drive stuff.


It's not just for BYOND you know!
soapyfish
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 03:58
According to this article blu-ray is already dead. Whether or not you agree with it, it's still an interesting read and does offer valid arguments.


JoelJ
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 04:34
If I remember correctly, people had the same attitude toward DVDs when they first came out.
That and a lot of major companies hated the idea of DVDs because it would be way to easy to copy. George Lucas said he'd never release his movies on DVD for that reason. But here we are ... what, 10 years later? I don't know where I'd find a VHS player.

I think people are just crying wolf with Bluray. This price is from it being a new technology, but it'll follow the trend of all tech, and drop in price significantly as vendors strive to find a cheaper route.


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flickenmaste
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 04:41
blueray is mainly so it can hold extra stuff, so more worthless stuff like lame bonus features, and disney adding pointless games.

Ill stick to my dvd


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El Goorf
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 12:46
Quote: "blueray is mainly so it can hold extra stuff, so more worthless stuff like lame bonus features, and disney adding pointless games."


i remember thinking it wouldnt be worth getting a dvd rive for my pc, since dvd's were for films, and games still came on cd rom. now, every game i've purchased in the last few years has been on DVD. theres now a few games being sold over 2 or more DVD's, in the future this will probably be replaced with a single bluray disc.

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soapyfish
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 13:10
Personally, I can see the benefits of blu-ray for data storage (although it is a lot to lose if the disc gets damaged, apparently they are much tougher than dvds) but as far as movies go I'd rather legally download a smaller file at lower quality for a reduced price and watch the movie that way.


Kohaku
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 13:45 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2008 13:46
I want to see the Lord of the Rings trilogy on blu-ray. Frame by frame..


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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 17:18
To all the Blu-Ray haters I recommend finding a nice 1080p TV and watching Planet Earth--- never again will you doubt the quality of the picture improvements


JoelJ
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 17:43
Quote: "blueray is mainly so it can hold extra stuff"

actually, it's mainly so you can put higher def videos on a disk.


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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 19:05
Quote: " To all the Blu-Ray haters I recommend finding a nice 1080p TV and watching Planet Earth--- never again will you doubt the quality of the picture improvements"


Hand over the cash, and we have a deal


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Oolite
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2008 23:18
Quote: "To all the Blu-Ray haters I recommend finding a nice 1080p TV and watching Planet Earth--- never again will you doubt the quality of the picture improvements"

Amen to that, if i'm ever stressed, Planet Earth brings me back down...to earth ( ) again

Zappo
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 00:17
Quote: "According to this article blu-ray is already dead."

Most of what is mentioned in that article could have been applied to DVD when it came out, and CD before that. New technology is always very expensive until its taken up by enough people and sales can be guaranteed. It also depends a lot on the dropping price of burners which opens up the market to the smaller movie production companies. As more are bought, more are produced and the price will come down.
The bit about the price of Blu Ray video production software is a bit off too. I am sure you can spend tens of thousands of dollars if you want to but you can also buy Cyberlink Power Director 7 Ultra for $119.95 or Roxio Creator 2009 for $109.98 - both of which will edit video and burn Blu Ray movie disks with menus.

When it comes to buying movies on Blu Ray, the price has dropped a lot already. You can now pick up Blu Ray movies for close to the same price as the 2 disk DVDs of the same films in the UK - and they contain the same or more content. For example, Woolworths sell the 2 disk DVD version of "Iron Man" for £17.75 and the Blu Ray version for £17.90!

Almost 1.4 million Blu-ray discs were sold in Europe in the first quarter of 2008. Over the pond in the US, in October an average of 11.5% of all movies sold from the top 20 were on Blu Ray. That's not bad and it shows quite a steady improvement month on month. In September the Blu Ray share was 8.5% of the top 20 movie sales and in August it was 7.4%.

Of course, people won't buy high definition players and movies until they have a high definition TV to view them on. Over 34 million homes in Western Europe had HD televisions by May of this year so I expect this has increased a lot, and will accelerate as we in the UK go through the digital TV switchover.

Currently I think the biggest threat to Blu Ray will be downloadable/streaming movies. Personally I don't think the majority of broadband speeds in UK homes are good enough yet to support HD content. Plus I think lots of people are like me and like to have the physical media which they can take round to friends houses or trade in if they don't like a film they have bought. Blu Ray won't be disappearing any time soon.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
JoelJ
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 02:21
Quote: "Currently I think the biggest threat to Blu Ray will be downloadable/streaming movies. "

No, maybe to DVDs, but not BLURAY. No one streams 35gb movies. They stream HD videos, but they're not nearly the same quality.


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Satchmo
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 02:48
Quote: "No, maybe to DVDs, but not BLURAY. No one streams 35gb movies. They stream HD videos, but they're not nearly the same quality. "


Thats not the point, to the majority of people. Because to the majority of people who's Tv's are not big enough, or high quality enough, the difference is negligible.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 05:36
I forget where, but I read that BluRay will eventually be replaced by Holographic Disks with a 300 GB capacity. Interesting, eh?

Yodaman Jer
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 09:53 Edited at: 4th Nov 2008 09:54
Pointless, eh?

Whilst I see the benefits for backup purposes, how much is too much? DVD was a huge jump over VHS in quality (no more buzzing, no more flickery colours, no more degrading) but unless you have a HDTV over 20in, you can't tell the difference between BluRay/HD-DVD and DVD even if you use your best videophile imagination.

And who on Earth can afford a HDTV or indeed any TV over 20in? The prices increase at an exponential rate as the size and resolution increase.

Should I continue coding or focus on my art? Vote here:
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NeX, the creator of a billion failed projects.
Zappo
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 13:58
Quote: "And who on Earth can afford a HDTV or indeed any TV over 20in?"

Are you kidding? One of the monitors I am using on this very PC is 22inch (the other is 19inch). In a living room the average screen size has to be at least 28inch by now, if not 32inch. Unless of course your living room is only 6ft square


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
Raven
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 15:12
While all this is great talk and all, the realistic position is that High-Definition on the whole isn't quite being adopted quite as well as business' felt it would be.

Although yeah it's true that it is slowly becoming adopted, the only reason for that is because people purchasing new televisions have no other choice than a HD Flatscreen now; as CRT Televisions have now been completely phased out of the retail market.

The only place to get one now is second hand. So adoption rates are rising only due to this, as given the choice between a 20" Flatscreen HDTV and a 32" Widescreen CRT SDTV... people were choosing the larger screen they could watch movies on properly.

With DVD-Players now utilising embedded graphics processors from NVIDIA and ATI to provide much more chrisp picture quality; the quality difference to the adverage person between SD and HD formats are almost negleable.

Especially when you pay note that the adoption rate of 1080p/i over the 720p/i (well 1440x900 max in most cases but oddly not supported by this HD Revolution except PS3 right now if you count that as a valid HD Media Player) is extremely small.

Mainly because people don't stand there and checkout the picture quality, but rather go with what seems to them the better value for money. Shop assistants won't go the extra mile to try to get a customer to part with an extra £100-300 for better picture quality when they are guarenteed a sale with the cheaper set, especially given peoples income becoming more and more limited... and without the market demand the prices will not drop because mass production of such things on the same scale as the previous generation is small.

What makes things worse is HDMI itself scares people as everything they own prior to upgrading is in Composite AV (SCART) format. Something that looks identical no matter how much resolution you put in to it... maybe a little chrisper on a HDTV but realistically that's down to the integrated up-scaling chips.

Another consern is for these higher resolutions to make sense or appear much different is to purchase a larger set... again more money but also requiring more space that people often don't have. They're more often than not upgrading from 21-28" CRT; sure they have more room behind where it used to be, but often width-wise they don't want them taking up too much of the room.

Peoples living rooms and bedrooms aren't instantly going to increase in size simply because they bought a new TV. For example I actually had to trade in my 38" Widescreen 1080p HDTV for a 32" model (which didn't have a 1080p version available) simply because it didn't fit in the gap where I have my TV in my living room; and to have it fit it would've interfered with the couch we have in the gap near the window. While it would've been nice to have a big TV, I'm not gonna rearrange my entire living room to accomidate it as I would've been left with less overall space for guests.
Not to mention the only area large enough would've had everyone getting blinded requiring a set with a backlight to compensate with it being against the window. Again that would've cost extra...

There are a few people I know with similar issues when getting these new TVs often settling for smaller, or lower resolution sets because of cost and/or space. Not to mention a huge number of people I know don't have anything wrong with their current TV and see no reason to upgrade; this story is echoed quite often.

HD Formats are great and all, but realistically I just don't think it's as big a deal as the companies thought it would be. It's nice to now have a universal connection format that is used for all the devices the world over; but realistically makes no odds until more devices start to actually incorporate it more.

Yet the knock on effect is they won't see the point until the adoption rate is high enough to warrent mass production to keep costs down, or worry about releasing a product that isn't guarenteed to sell in declining economies. Something business' just aren't going to risk.

At the end of the HD-DVD vs BluRay war, I said at the time I don't see either out-performing DVD for a very long time; and that I saw Digital Content being the realistic successor to DVD. With each month that passes that is becoming more and more likely.

In-fact if we continue to have physical formats for things, which is likely given high-speed internet for everyone is still a pipedream... Actually while this might sound crazy, but what I honestly see happening over the next few years is everything moving to SD-Flash cards.

While you might be like "WTF?!", think about it like this. You can go to a store today and get a 16GB SD-Flash Card for £30... it has full support for all current protection methods and flexible enough for protection methods that might be deviced. The cost to create these cards is actually fairly small, thanks to the adoption of them with Cellphones, Cameras, PC, Wii and Playstation 3. Meaning they're being mass produced cheaply.

They're extremely safe from extreme weather condition, they can't get scratched and can be written and rewritten billions of times without degredation. Not to mention small enough to keep huge collections.

I can see download terminals appearing in video stores, etc... it'd be cheaper for rental places given they only need a box they could copy a film as many time as required; or not even have physical copies but just a terminal for you to rent on-the-fly. Same with games.

You get back home, then insert in your TV, Console or PC that then downloads to the HDD and runs the film, game or software. For those who still want a perminant physical copy they would be able to; but for those who just want the stuff they could be charged less because of no packing or such... simply the product downloaded.

Seriously, I reckon that's the direction of physical media. I mean SD-Flash also has transfer rates between that of DVD for low-quality to better than HDDs for high-quality. There's zero noise because of no moving parts.

I'm probably wrong, but realistically that seems to be where media is heading. A true digital solution.

Alucard94
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 15:14
I probably agree with Raven on the Flash Card prediction, been thinking a bit about such things lately.


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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 16:23
Quote: "And who on Earth can afford a HDTV or indeed any TV over 20in?"


Seeing as decent 40" LCD HDTVs here can be found for below $1k, anyone with a job can afford one if they want it.


Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 17:14
decent 40" LCD HDTVs here can be found for below 8000 skr and that is 800 £.
Deathead
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 17:45
Quote: "it RedRay, "

Hmm, funnily enough it'd be the teams off TF2..
Red and Blu.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-Butterfingers
Raven
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 18:37
Quote: "Seeing as decent 40" LCD HDTVs here can be found for below $1k, anyone with a job can afford one if they want it."


Not sure about you, but myself after Rent/Food/Bills/Petrol/Insurance ... well there isn't exactly much left over and I have a fairly well paid job. Given the majority of the population in this country atleast is in Tax Band A (i.e. earning <£19k per year) realistically a television that expensive is a good few months of saving.

That is a BIG investment for a device that realistically most people already own and right now appears to work just fine.

You might be alright spending £300-800 per month on frills, but I can guarentee you that others particularly those who have families or are in jobs with minimum wage just aren't even close to as priviledged enough to do that!

I'm sure for you that's cool, but don't assume that everyone is as well paid as you are; cause they're not. People are still sketchy about buying the new generation of consoles; I mean look at it this way, there are only a combined 60million consoles sold so far across all three platforms... even with recent price drops. That is likely to climb after this christmas, but people save up for christmas and there are FAR FAR more televisions sold per year than consoles.

You'll find that the majority of televisions being currently sold are likely to be the budget end, which as I said really make little difference over what people currently own past being flat and supporting HDMI (sometimes not even supporting that)...

what's more is there are no televisions (atleast in this country, and from what I can tell the story is the same stateside) that have reached the sweet spot of £100 that offer reasonable size and picture quality. In-fact my friend recently wanted to upgrade to a HDTV, only to find out to get the same as his current 21" SDTV he bought 5years ago for £120 at retail; it would cost him nearly 3x as much for a HD version. That's not even a Widescreen model, that frankly I said to him is realistically more worth such a hike in price.

Sometimes I feel a few people are so removed from regular working Joe's that it isn't even funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow

Just to point out, while it's not the specrograph on lightwave lengths of visible colour (cause I'm too damn tired to find that); that should explain a bit more about why "RedRay" was just a retarded comment.

Long and short of it is, Red Lasers were used for years because they're easy to make. The size of the waveband (and also on a more technical note speed... but that's not quite as important given computers can't process that quickly anyhow) of Red Light is the widest in our visual range. Where-as Blue has a much tighter band.

Best way to explain the difference is if you had 2 pencils in-front of you, while yeah they both write in carbon grey you have a 2B and a 1H. So if you drew 3 lines each 5mm apart, you'll notice that the 2B would come close to overlapping; while the 1H would have enough space for another 2 lines in-between what was already on the paper.

In-essence this is exactly the difference between a Red and Blue laser. The only way to improve would be to tighten the beam creating an Indigo, Violet light or even beyond what we can physically see which is known as InfraRed as light goes back through the spectrum again at increasingly tight bandwidths until you reach the microwave formats.

Although this said at such tight wavelengths it can be percussive rather than evasive light intensity; as with narrower focused beams come greater heat and energy dispursion.

Basically speaking there is only so far they can push light until it becomes damaging to the optical media itself (in current forms being magnetic filliments within plastic) without changing the current media format.

But meh, that's enough remedial science for today

Accoun
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Posted: 4th Nov 2008 19:15
Quote: "
In-fact if we continue to have physical formats for things, which is likely given high-speed internet for everyone is still a pipedream... Actually while this might sound crazy, but what I honestly see happening over the next few years is everything moving to SD-Flash cards.

While you might be like "WTF?!", think about it like this. You can go to a store today and get a 16GB SD-Flash Card for £30... it has full support for all current protection methods and flexible enough for protection methods that might be deviced. The cost to create these cards is actually fairly small, thanks to the adoption of them with Cellphones, Cameras, PC, Wii and Playstation 3. Meaning they're being mass produced cheaply.

They're extremely safe from extreme weather condition, they can't get scratched and can be written and rewritten billions of times without degredation. Not to mention small enough to keep huge collections.

I can see download terminals appearing in video stores, etc... it'd be cheaper for rental places given they only need a box they could copy a film as many time as required; or not even have physical copies but just a terminal for you to rent on-the-fly. Same with games.

You get back home, then insert in your TV, Console or PC that then downloads to the HDD and runs the film, game or software. For those who still want a perminant physical copy they would be able to; but for those who just want the stuff they could be charged less because of no packing or such... simply the product downloaded.

Seriously, I reckon that's the direction of physical media. I mean SD-Flash also has transfer rates between that of DVD for low-quality to better than HDDs for high-quality. There's zero noise because of no moving parts.

I'm probably wrong, but realistically that seems to be where media is heading. A true digital solution."


http://www.slotmusic.org/what_is.php
I've read about it in one of polish game mags. It's not exactly what you've been talking about but it's an idea to sell 1GB microSD memcards with music recorded in 320kbps (DRM-free), that you can buy in stores like CDs, and copy them to your PC, or play them in every music player that uses microSD cards. The price of those should be $15 and the price of SM-dedicated Sansa Player (without bult-in memory or screen) should be $20...

Make games, not war.

Ninjazz
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 12:52
My random 2 cents... Given the recent advances in solid states media, and the fact that we should have terabyte thumbdrives in about a year and a half due to the whole new "silicon nano-wire" process. (I forgot the "official" abbreviation, I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future everything is going to be solid state. It could give the producers added security potential, etc etc.
(Imagine buying a game that's little more than a chip you stick in your usb drive. If they continue to improve usb accessing speeds, they might forego hard drive installation entirely, with the exception of settings and save games, etc.) It could almost be a step BACKWARD towards the good old cart based games for consoles.

As far as Blu-ray being dead, I can see that happening. With mass storage, inexpensibe solid state on the horizon, and the current (still) prohibitive costs of Blue-ray media, why pay the money? I've never even once considered buying a Blu-ray drive, and I back up a lot of media. (Even 10GB clusters of files at time.)
3 DVDRs = about $1. Storage : ~11GB
1 BRD = about $30. Storage : ~27GB

Heck, these days you can buy a 100 spool pack of DVDRs (and not the crummy quality ones only) for the price of one Blu-ray recordable. With that price difference, I don't mind spending a few more minutes backing things up.

I read about the holographic disc stuff they were working on too, it sounds neat, but I think it won't ever come to light with the innovations in solid state.

That's my thinking, anyhow.

The difference between a boy and a man: The boy thinks he is a man, the man wishes he were a boy again.
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 13:11 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 13:11
I often play games off a class two 8Gb SDHC card in a motherboard mounted USB 2.0 card reader. It's by no stretch of the imagination slow. In fact, even with only a 630 Celeron, sometimes it loads a little quicker than it does on big, expensive hard drive desktops. If you encounter a long loading time on Fallout 3 for the 360, for example (one of the best games I've ever played w00t) you'll hear that the reader head is continuously going back and forth which is another delay flash doesn't encounter. Once they conquer the write limit problem, hard drives and/or optical media are history.

No longer a member of this forum.
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 13:15
I've never even seen a Blu-ray in action, so I don't even know how hiqh-quality they are.

Off-topic; NeX, what's up with your sig?
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 13:22
Oh yeah, left a little while ago to get my head checked, etc. I'm back now and forgot to tweak my sig.

No longer a member of this forum.
MSon
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 13:48
Before the Battle between BlueRay and HDDVD, there was already talk of UHD DVD which operated at stupid resolutions, (Requires somethink like a 60 Inch Screen)

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 14:33
Quote: "In-essence this is exactly the difference between a Red and Blue laser. The only way to improve would be to tighten the beam creating an Indigo, Violet light or even beyond what we can physically see which is known as InfraRed as light goes back through the spectrum again at increasingly tight bandwidths until you reach the microwave formats."

Dude, infra red and microwaves are longer wavelength (shorter frequency) than visible. Shorter wavelength is ultraviolet, x-rays. Blue-Ray / HD-DVD lasers are almost UV.

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2009 04:04
Quote: "InfraRed "


You mean ultra-violet. Infrared would store less than visible red.

Rampage
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2009 07:28
Wow, I must be lucky, Blueray dvd's only cost about $2 more than usual dvd's over here.


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David R
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2009 08:29
Quote: "Infrared would store less than visible red."


As well as being a manifestation of 'heat' rather than light (as such)


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