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Geek Culture / Switch from tables to css

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General Reed
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 07:21
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Im used to using tables for layout, and i just tried to learn css, but tbh im not sure if its worth the hastle. Yes you can position everything in anyway you want, but how the hell does one center the whole website for example?

Ive tried making a main DIV which is centered in the site perfectly. Then i try making a div inside of the main div, which also centers fine. But as soon as i try to position the child DIV, it totaly ignores the parent DIV, so its just positioned from 0, 0px. Its a nighmare so far, i hope someone can help.

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General Reed
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 08:01
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Ok, ive worked out the centering problem.
Now theres a little thing which is annoying me. Whenever i position a DIV, it positions to the center, not the upper left corner. How do i change this?

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BatVink
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 10:24
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The easiest way to learn css is to see how other people have done it. Use Firefox + the Firebug plugin, or Google Chrome's element inspector tool. Both of these show you the css, and highlight the relevant part of the page as you hover over it.

It is worth it, I started using css elements rather than tables in the newsletter and it is so much more manageable. It already used CSS, and I was using tables for anyhting out of the ordinary - it never felt right.

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Lazlazlaz 1
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 17:47
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Quick tip, to centre your whole website, put this in the css for your div containing everything.



As with most people I jump around which projects I work on and which I drop for a while.
Currently I'm back working on Sioux, a Hollywood Western RTS.
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JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 20:16
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hint: stackoverflow for all your programming needs

ask a programming related question and you'll get an answer within hours


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General Reed
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 20:35
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Ok thanks dudes. Why is it whenever i do something, in dreamweaver and firefox, its looks precisely as it should, but as soon as its put into internet explorer, its just a jumble of crap?

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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 20:40
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Welcome to the browser wars. Your problem is because FF and IE are made by different companies, and therefore have are structured differently. You can never get every little thing to look right in every browser. You just have to find a happy place where FF and IE will agree on how it should look.


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General Reed
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 20:45
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Well in internet explorer, if i have the following code in a div tag



It displayes like this in firefox, and dreamweaver:
"
Email Address:
Password:
"
Which is how i want it to display.

However for some redicuolous reason, in ie it displays liek this:
"
Email Address:

Password:
"

With a space in the middle for no reason whatsoever.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 21:05 Edited at: 14th Nov 2008 21:05
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First off, you should be using <br />, second, that's weird. Have you tried putting the text around <p> brackets instead?


It's not just for BYOND you know!
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General Reed
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Posted: 14th Nov 2008 21:15
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Ok, thanks. Tbh atm i cant find a single reason to use CSS over tables. Can someone shed some light on the advantages? Ive had nothing but trouble with css. Im just trying to get a registration form layed out properly using css+div, but its taking ages, i can do the same thing using tables in about 10 mins.

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Lazlazlaz 1
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Posted: 15th Nov 2008 01:59 Edited at: 15th Nov 2008 02:01
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You really should only use <br /> if you are declaring your files as xhtml. If you are declaring them as transitional or strict html 4.01 then you should use <br>.

I wouldn't recommend using xhtml, it is not really being taken up and strict 4.01 is the better (in my opinion). In xhtml, to make it valid (check here > http://validator.w3.org/) you have to include every single attribute for all your tags, even if you are not using them and they have a null value. Which is annoying and makes it harder to read.


edit: the main reason css is better than tables is loading speed. To load a page with tables first the browser has to read the file to find the structure of the table, then read it again to load the contents.
With css it can all be done there and then. CSS also lends itself nicer to dynamic pages and easier reading for mobile handset browsers.

As with most people I jump around which projects I work on and which I drop for a while.
Currently I'm back working on Sioux, a Hollywood Western RTS.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 01:37
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I made the switch from tables to CSS a few years ago and I went through the same hassle. People don't like tables because its more code which means larger file size and messier looking code. IMO, its still easier to use tables for layouts, and you have the comfort of knowing it'll appear the same in all browsers without any special hacks, unlike trying to use DIVs with CSS. Still, I stopped using tables because someone else signs my paychecks.


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JoelJ
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 05:43
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the advantage is that using tables isn't necessarily standard compliant. You're SUPPOSED to use CSS. And the reason it displays properly in FF and Dreamweaver and not IE is because IE is not standard compliant. It'll also look almost the same in Opera, Chrome, and Safari. They're fixing that in the next version of IE, but the beta still struggles with compliance to the standards.

I was told by one person that the new version of CSS lets you use CSS in a way to layout your page similar to the way tables work. Has anyone else heard this? If so, I can't wait until browsers start using the new version of CSS (is it version 4?)


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Phaelax
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 11:27
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Your keyword there was "almost" the same. Even Opera, FF, and Safari have some differences because no browser is 100%.... yet. (they're getting very close)

In my opinion, until a browser reaches 100% compliance, none of them are any better than IE. In truth, every browser falls short of standards. To me, its a pass or fail test, so I could care less who's higher at the moment, they're all failures.


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General Reed
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 11:48
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Well firefox seems to come close to most standards, but ie seems to miss out so much. Also ie is so clunky and resource hungry compared to firefox.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 15:07
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Since when did FF start using less memory than IE? (maybe compared to IE8, in which case everything wins in comparison)


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General Reed
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 15:41
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Erm, i just did a test. I open both browsers, stacked them, opened google.co.uk on both, one tab open per browser. Here are the memory usage results:

Internet explorer: 36,729K
Firefox: 16,311K

So yes, IE takes a lot more memory than firefox, as it always has done. Remember its microsoft, you cant actualy expect them to make a quality product FOR FREE. lol

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General Reed
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 15:45
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Here i did a more accurate test.
Each browser had 3 tabs open, both with "www.thegamecreators.com" open (The home page).

Heres a shot:


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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 17:05
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When I tried your test, Firefox took up more memory than IE.
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General Reed
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 17:07
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What versions are you using. You have seen the screenshot.

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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 17:10
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Oh, I just realised you're using FF3, I've still got FF2, that could be it
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JoelJ
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 22:52
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Phaelax: agreed to an extent. But the problem with IE not complying is that it's so far off, while the other 3 major browsers are so close to each other. So developers have to always double check everything in IE and almost never have to worry about the others.


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General Reed
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Posted: 16th Nov 2008 22:56
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@Tom J - Lol ok. You should get ff3, unlike IE firefox just gets better.

@JoelJ - Agreed. It is highly annoying. Internet explorer is what everyone refers to as "The Default Browser". I.e whenever you think of an internet browesr, you think IE first. So why dont they put the effort in to be standardized properly. Its annoying.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 17th Nov 2008 01:42
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Quote: "You should get ff3, unlike IE firefox just gets better.
"

maybe the memory usage isn't getting better, but I think IE is.


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General Reed
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Posted: 17th Nov 2008 09:10
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Yes IE is very slowly getting better. Firefox already seems to be up to most standards tho. Whenever i do something in html/php/javascript it always looks exactly as i intended in firefox, opera, even chrome (Which is new). In IE 9/10 it looks diffrent, which is very annoying.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 17th Nov 2008 09:42
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How I view it is that Firefox is the hip new kid on the block that is into all the current trends, while IE tries to be professional. How professionalism equates to IE, and not FF, I have no idea. I guess that's what you get after being in the business for so long. You can slap microsoft on even the crappiest of products and it becomes industry approved just because of name sake.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
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General Reed
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Posted: 17th Nov 2008 10:04
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Lol, you do realise that Microsoft, being the profit machine it is, will end up buying firefox, and bundling it with windows, to:

1. Increace the "attractiveness" of windows.
2. Get rid of the competition.
3. Muck it up.

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