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Geek Culture / EU wants MS to include competitors' web browsers

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 00:46
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Quote: "So what's "Right now" referring to exactly? If you don't clarify then don't be surprised when your posts are misinterpreted"


Without turning this into a political debate, let me just say that I'm not happy with some of the things going on right now in my country.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 01:09
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I think its no problem IE's rendering engine is used for Windows itself. You can remove IE, the rendering engine is part of the OS and used in the actual browser.

If Ubuntu rendered its windows through Gecko, I wouldn't care about having Gecko obligatory.

The whole argument is utter nonsense. If you buy Windows, the rendering engine is part of that. I can't stand how software houses lose control of their products and services through rules like these.


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David R
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 17:47 Edited at: 26th Feb 2009 17:49
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Quote: ". If you buy Windows, the rendering engine is part of that."


That's the whole problem. IE gains traction and market share for doing nothing, since it is a stealth component of the OS that cannot be removed. I don't think this would be an issue to the EU if was the best browser on the planet, but being incredibly sloppy when it comes to standards compliance and in some cases a security hazard, the fact it is a de facto irremovable piece of the OS is a no-no (and I completely agree with this stance).

Also, I believe IE actually counts as a "contract of adhesion" as I was mentioning earlier. You're "signing up" to have IE to be part of your OS if you buy Windows (hence agreeing to its EULA etc.), regardless of whether you want it or not - and you have no power or pressure against MS.


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General Reed
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 18:55
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Good.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

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tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 11:52
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Quote: "That's the whole problem. IE gains traction and market share for doing nothing, since it is a stealth component of the OS that cannot be removed. I don't think this would be an issue to the EU if was the best browser on the planet, but being incredibly sloppy when it comes to standards compliance and in some cases a security hazard, the fact it is a de facto irremovable piece of the OS is a no-no (and I completely agree with this stance)."

If you use Windows with Firefox, Chrome or any other browser, as you're allowed to do and fully capable of doing, Internet Explorer does not gain any market share. If the issue of the EU really is the quality of the product, I feel that it is extremely inappropriate of them to rate/review a browser from my tax money (although I read an article last week that explained the average Euro MP's salary and jeez, that isn't 'just a little tax'). The compliance issue, though, I agree with - and as far as I know, so does Microsoft nowadays.

Quote: "Also, I believe IE actually counts as a "contract of adhesion" as I was mentioning earlier. You're "signing up" to have IE to be part of your OS if you buy Windows (hence agreeing to its EULA etc.), regardless of whether you want it or not - and you have no power or pressure against MS."

Since it doesn't cost you money, I can't say I feel that you should have power or pressure against MS for Internet Explorer being a part of Windows.


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Chris K
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 13:09
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Quote: "Internet Explorer does not gain any market share."


Er... of course it does. I mean, of course it does - I don't understand how anyone could disagree with that.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 17:51
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Quote: "Er... of course it does. I mean, of course it does - I don't understand how anyone could disagree with that."

If you don't use it, how can it?


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monotonic
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 18:10
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I think that the EU are trying to give other companies a chance to get in on the action, instead of Microsh*t having the monopoly on this market. It's all well and good saying that users can simply google firefox or chrome, but there is a vast amount of people who don't even know that other browsers exist, or do but aren't actually bothered about changing.

For instance, if your average email checking/light browsing user buys a PC with Windows installed. They are not going to go looking for alternative media players and browsers, they are just going to stick with what they have. This means that Microtwat will dominate the market.

I personally get the feeling from many, many people that they are bored and pissed off about how Microcrap are running things. Throughout college and uni all of the tutors constantly try to remind everyone that there are alternatives to Windows, and where possible they make us use them. I personally only use Window when absolutely necessary.

Anyway, the reason for it is to try and allow other (preferably EU/UK) companies to have a chance in the market. I know that if IE was to die then we already have FF and Chrome (Chrome being my choice), but maybe we could get back in the game, after all the computer was born in the UK. (computers that resemble modern computers that is not some mechanical abortion)

WARNING! The author of this post is most probably drunk or asleep.
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Chris K
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 19:05
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Quote: "If you don't use it, how can it?"


Yeah, but it clearly has an unfair advantage of FF in that it is already on your computer, set as your default browser when you turn it on.

This is an advantage that Firefox does not have.

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AlexI
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 22:11 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 22:46
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I think this is dumb.

I don't like IE myself and I am posting this from Firefox.

However if Microsoft includes firefox with their OS doesn't that means all others browsers are at a disadvantage. What about if I make a browser how do I get that included with Microsoft's OS?

If Microsoft has to do it then it's only fair that it is included with all other OS's so Apple should included IE as well as linux and any other future OS's.

If Windows didn't exist in the fist place Firefox probably wouldn't of.

If they really want to include the browser with Windows there better off approaching Dell and getting them to put it with windows. They already give you enough other stuff included with your system like ebay icons and Internet connections.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 22:13
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Well... that last comment is far from accurate.

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the_winch
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 23:42
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Quote: "If they really want to include the browser with Windows there better off approaching Dell and getting them to put it with windows."


There is a fair bit of evidence showing Microsoft "lean" on OEMs like Dell to persuade them not to ship software Microsoft doesn't like.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 00:10
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What I don't understand is, how will they present this to the user? Let's say when you start up your computer for the first time and it asks you to choose your default browser from a list of options--- the majority of users will not have had any clue that there were even any alternatives to start with. Won't this confuse people?

It's not as if Microsoft will be forced to list pros and cons with each one. Most people use IE because it's there, and they don't even understand the concept of "browsers". They just click the Internet icon and they're online. I feel like this will be confusing for the majority of people.

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David R
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 00:13 Edited at: 28th Feb 2009 00:16
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Quote: "Since it doesn't cost you money, I can't say I feel that you should have power or pressure against MS for Internet Explorer being a part of Windows."


Then continue to play directly into the hands of the big corporations then. The less people use their rights, the more these big companies can use EULAs/contracts to constrain it, meaning they can dictate to you exactly what the product is, regardless of whether it meets your requirements or not.

That's why I laugh when people say "MS don't take notice of feedback when making Windows". That's because they don't care whether you like their product or not - they make money from you regardless - so why do they need to accommodate you, exactly? They either make it indirectly via OEM or just by pushing you to the newest OS with shove tactics - but either way, they have your cash, and you have no voice to push for change (and they have no incentive to listen to you in the future)


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Mr Z
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 03:04
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To be honest I do not think they should force MS to not bundle IE. But I do not like that they bundle it as tight as they do, however it is their OS, so... still, wish IE was not as tightly bundled.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 18:36
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I say MS should just pull windows from the EU

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tha_rami
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 00:34
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Quote: "Then continue to play directly into the hands of the big corporations then. The less people use their rights, the more these big companies can use EULAs/contracts to constrain it, meaning they can dictate to you exactly what the product is, regardless of whether it meets your requirements or not."

Having the EULA be worth a penny would not only empower the larger corporations, but also the smaller ones. It is my belief that if you make something, you should have the final say in matters related to it.

Internet Explorer is part of Windows, and many people use it because they do not know better. They, too, buy Windows because they do not know better. So, maybe it would accomodate you people if Windows bundles Linux and Mac OS along with it, so that people can choose Ubuntu, Fedora or Mac OS when they install a PC? It's plain absurd.

Internet Explorer is Windows' browser program, and I have yet to see any other OS that has to battle to be able to put in its own office suite, media player or browser. To be honest, I'm ashamed to be paying taxes for those idiot ruling the European Union.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 03:48
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Quote: "I say MS should just pull windows from the EU"


That means a massive loss in the market and big $$$ losses, not to mention angry mobs.

As much as I love angry mobs...

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David R
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 12:09 Edited at: 1st Mar 2009 12:10
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Quote: "I say MS should just pull windows from the EU"


You realise that Europe has a bigger possible market than the US, right? (And the fact Europe contains about 200 mil. more people than North America)


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Aertic
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 13:59
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Well, what they could do is remove I.E, and tell people to use the HTML based help pages and use the "Jump to http" feature to download a browser. :3


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-'Butterfingers'
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 17:53
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Should they remove MS Paint too because it has an unfair advantage over Paint Shop Pro?

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David R
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 17:57
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Controlling a browser is a very different scenario to any other arbitrary application - a browser is a portal to millions of businesses, products and services. By controlling the browser, you're controlling the visibility of these services (and since MS has services of its own, it pushes these - whereas other browser companies are more 'neutral' and purely develop browsers).

A paint program does not control the visibility of online services or businesses, nor can it alter your likelihood to use one service other another


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Aertic
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 18:13
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Quote: "Should they remove MS Paint too because it has an unfair advantage over Paint Shop Pro?"

They should replace it with Uber paint, a slightly modified versiion of MS paint. xD


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AlexI
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 18:27
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Quote: "Should they remove MS Paint too because it has an unfair advantage over Paint Shop Pro?"


Agreed, they make Windows they can put what they want in it.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 18:40
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Quote: "Controlling a browser is a very different scenario to any other arbitrary application - a browser is a portal to millions of businesses, products and services. By controlling the browser, you're controlling the visibility of these services (and since MS has services of its own, it pushes these - whereas other browser companies are more 'neutral' and purely develop browsers). "

Explorer offers you sites to choose from as Accelerators, including Google Search and similar concurring online services.


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draknir_
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 19:23
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Quote: "Controlling a browser is a very different scenario to any other arbitrary application - a browser is a portal to millions of businesses, products and services. By controlling the browser, you're controlling the visibility of these services (and since MS has services of its own, it pushes these - whereas other browser companies are more 'neutral' and purely develop browsers).
"


The logical solution then is to have Internet Explorer's home page default to a service-neutral web portal, not remove IE and force a competitor's web browser into Windows.
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Roxas
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Posted: 1st Mar 2009 20:29
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Well, IE should fix it standards if IE wants to survive this blow.. Really IE is holding back Web desings.

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monotonic
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 00:42 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 00:43
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Quote: "Agreed, they make Windows they can put what they want in it."


No, they cannot. Hate it as much as I do, Microsoft pretty much controls the personal computer market and thereby can influence the direction and decisions made by other companies. With this power, comes a great deal of responsibility, which means they have to (well at least they should) listen to what the consumer wants and obey them. I mean they make enough money from the Europeans so therefore we can say what we want and how we want it, if the corporate 'hoes' at M$ don't like it then..well tough there's nothing they can do about it.

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draknir_
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 02:02 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 02:04
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You know that watercolor you're painting? Well watercolor is lame, start using oil paint, because I'm sick of seeing watercolors.

You know that movie you're filming which has product placement for your own product? Well screw you, add my alternative product next to yours, because I'm sick of seeing your product being placed in movies.

You know that game you're making? Well I hate the interface, it's terrible, use my interface, and while you're at it put some ads for my games in there, because I'm sick of people buying yours while mine are free.

You know that application you're writing for the iPhone? Well you need to make it compatible with Google Android, because I'm sick of Apple's popularity.

You know that operating system you're developing? Well your browser isn't as good as mine, so you need to include it because I'm sick of seeing so many people with your browser.

...

If it wasn't clear, I'm being sarcastic. MS has every right to include only IE.
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monotonic
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 02:35
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@draknir_

Congratulations you just typed all of that and made no point what so ever.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 04:30
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Though I feel very much on the fence for the argument, I kind of feel Draknir has missed monotonic's point, he's saying that MS hold a lot of responsibilities and therefore need to respond to their consumers...whether they should be forced to or not is a different matter, but I think that's his main point.

It would seem that the EU has decided that it should have some say in the conduct of one of the main business to export to Europe. I'm sure MS isn't the only company to be given special requirements by a political power for how they see a product in the best interest of its people. I tend to think of it as: "if you're going to export into our territory, then we have this requirement".

Is it right? I don't know. Do the majority in Europe care? Nope. Will it be better? I'd like to think so, given IE is pretty bad by its competition and it would seem under-protective, which isn't good given the majority that use it because it's the default browser.

I'm thinking had I got a copy of Firefox sooner my internet experience wouldn't have been as bad as it was when using IE.

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draknir_
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 09:32 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 09:34
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@monotonic: Read through a couple of times, you'll get there.

@Seppuku:

Quote: "need to respond to their consumers"


Have the consumers been complaining about Internet Explorer's huge share in the browser market? Consumers also complained about Vista, which happens to be an excellent operating system. The problem is that people will believe what they're told and when they hear their friends slagging off Microsoft they decide to join in.

Quote: "special requirements by a political power for how they see a product in the best interest of its people"


Best interest of it's people? How exactly is forcing a competitors browser into windows in the best interest of it's people? This sounds like dictatorship to me.



What I don't understand is why IE is hated so much that people are willing to force a competing browser into a vendors operating system.

Yes, web standards aren't met, but the IE team is actually working on that and taking it in the right direction.

As for security, of course the most popular browser in the world is going to be targeted. If this ridiculous action is allowed to continue and, say, Firefox gets installed on every Windows PC there will without a doubt be a surge of new exploits and security flaws found for Firefox.

In what situation would using Internet Explorer be so utterly damaging that you could possibly blame Microsoft? Maybe new internet users should get lessons in browsing safely instead of being let straight onto the world wide web. (Perhaps linked from that neutral service portal home page?)
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Mr Z
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 09:37
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Quote: "Have the consumers been complaining about Internet Explorer's huge share in the browser market? Consumers also complained about Vista, which happens to be an excellent operating system. The problem is that people will believe what they're told and when they hear their friends slagging off Microsoft they decide to join in."


They can also have good points sometimes (some do, some don´t).

Quote: "As for security, of course the most popular browser in the world is going to be targeted."


For the record, Firefox is targeted more often then IE.

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AlexI
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 09:48 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 09:53
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Quote: " if the corporate 'hoes' at M$ don't like it then..well tough there's nothing they can do about it.
"


I think that is compleatly wrong, you buy windows, there is nothing you can do about the fact they havent included another browser with the inital install. There is nothing you can do about the fact 90% of PC's are windows, and they wont be changing because of a browser isnt already installed on there system especially when they can install it themselves afterwards.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 09:52
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Quote: "For the record, Firefox is targeted more often then IE."

Proof?

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Mr Z
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 09:54
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Quote: "Proof?"


My teacher in IT-security told it to us during a lesson. He said it goes up and down, sometimes it is IE, sometimes it is Firefox. So right now it is Firefox, but that may change soon.

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AlexI
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 09:58
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He lie, we need proof


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monotonic
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 10:18
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Quote: "@monotonic: Read through a couple of times, you'll get there."


Yes I have read through it, and I can understand basic primary school level sarcasm very well, but the fact remains you did not put forward a point and explain the reasoning behind it. That is what usually happens in an adult conversation...


Quote: "Consumers also complained about Vista, which happens to be an excellent operating system."


I nearly spat my coffee out over my keyboard when I read that. Vista is most definitely not a good OS, which is why M$ have already developed a new one to replace it.


Quote: "What I don't understand is why IE is hated so much that people are willing to force a competing browser into a vendors operating system.

Yes, web standards aren't met"


You answered your own question there, plus IE has been out for how long and it's compatibility still sucks.


Quote: "I think that is compleatly wrong, you buy windows, there is nothing you can do about the fact they havent included another browser with the inital install. "


Well, there is something we can do about it, read the title of the thread!


Quote: "There is nothing you can do about the fact 90% of PC's are windows, and they wont be changing because of a browser isnt already installed on there system especially when they can install it themselves afterwards."


Nobody said anything about getting people to change OS, although I wish they would, oh God I wish they would.


I think some M$ 'fanboyism' is going a little overboard here, as consumers we have the right to say what we want. Especially if what we are consuming is pretty much all we have, yes there are alternatives but a lot of the time you are forced to use Windows.

WARNING! The author of this post is most probably drunk or asleep.
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Mr Z
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 10:19 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 10:37
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Quote: "He lie, we need proof"


I think he is more qualified then you in this matter.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 10:38
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Quote: "I think he is more qualified then you in this matter."

But you didn't provide proof, just quoted someone else.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 10:46
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I know what I did.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 11:46
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Quote: "Quote: "need to respond to their consumers"

Have the consumers been complaining about Internet Explorer's huge share in the browser market? Consumers also complained about Vista, which happens to be an excellent operating system. The problem is that people will believe what they're told and when they hear their friends slagging off Microsoft they decide to join in."


I doubt they have been complaining, obviously the EU thinks there's an issue for the consumer. Given IE sucks, I mean it's not that difficult, really, IE isn't up to web standards.

My argument would not be the be the same as Monotonic's, I don't think it's an issue of customers satisfaction, I'm sure the EU wouldn't really want to get involved simply to 'satisfy consumer needs', I'm sure their action is an issue of security. If more people used Firefox or another competitive browser, then people's web experience would be safer than if they were using IE.

Are the EU's tactics right? That's where I sit on the fence, I mean on one hand, the EU should have an interest in the security of all of the nations it Unites, however, on the other hand should they dictate what a company does?


Quote: "I know what I did."


Quoting an IT teacher isn't proof, given they don't always know what they're talking about.

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AlexI
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 15:33 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 15:33
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Quote: "Quoting an IT teacher isn't proof, given they don't always know what they're talking about."


Very true

Quote: "I think he is more qualified then you in this matter."


http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/internet-explorer-ie-versus-firefox-a-security-viewpoint/



Quote: "Nobody said anything about getting people to change OS"


I was saying that at the moment that is the only way to not have IE on your system following on from this quote:

Quote: "if the corporate 'hoes' at M$ don't like it then..well tough there's nothing they can do about it.
"



Quote: "I think some M$ 'fanboyism' is going a little overboard here, as consumers we have the right to say what we want."


I have a Mac, a Linux server and XP pc. They all have different uses i dont love M$. However I belive it is wrong for anyone to be forced into modifying there software to included some one elses.


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Mr Z
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 15:50 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 15:52
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Quote: "http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/internet-explorer-ie-versus-firefox-a-security-viewpoint/"


You know, I never said IE was more secure or that it had less vulnarabilities...

Besides, that article is old.

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AlexI
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 16:14 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2009 16:15
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Know one is going to back down on either arguments which are both valid. So we might as well give up with this thread.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 16:49
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Quote: "I was just looking at the IE vulnerabilities vis-a-vis Firefox compiled by Secunia. Before going further you have to understand that IE has been much longer than Firefox and hence have been more extensively looked at for vulnerabilities."


So you're claiming more people have looked over the IE code than the Firefox code for security vulnerabilities?

Firefox is more secure than IE, not because it's "not as popular", but because it's more secure.

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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2009 17:06
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Quote: "For the record, Firefox is targeted more often then IE."


That is the most outlandish claim in this entire thread It is up to you to provide proof of this, not for us to provide counter-proof.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 4th Mar 2009 16:50
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I think Draknir_ made an excellent point. It's bullcrap that a company should be forced comply to user complaints under any circumstance - capitalism should take care of that.


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David R
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Posted: 4th Mar 2009 17:19 Edited at: 4th Mar 2009 17:21
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Quote: "It's bullcrap that a company should be forced comply to user complaints under any circumstance - capitalism should take care of that."


I can't wait to see the next time you want a refund on defective machinery or some other product, and are denied/prevented from reaching the company or raising a cmomplain - I'll laugh and say "Good to see capitalism is working". Seriously though, your viewpoint on consumer rights is pretty scary


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tha_rami
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Posted: 4th Mar 2009 17:38 Edited at: 4th Mar 2009 17:39
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Consumer rights are that if something is broken, it is replaced. Things like that. Not at all the same as enforcing something that forces a company to include or exclude software from an OS. It is only the companies right to decide what goes or doesn't go in it.

Whats next, telling Microsoft they can't change the task bar to the new version, because people are accustomed to the 'old' one? Its none of our, nor the EU's business.


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