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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] The Ultimate Fate of the Universe...

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Lonnehart
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Posted: 14th May 2009 11:35
Sure we don't have to worry about it. We won't be around to see it anyway, but it's still nice to talk about.

I'm pretty sure it'll end up cold, decayed and empty. Others think it'll eventually cave in on itself. It could go either way... unless someone eats a giant burrito and lets out "The Big Rip"...
Mr Z
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Posted: 14th May 2009 11:42
Heard of three theories.

One, it will implode to a singurality again.

Two, it will continue to expand for all eternity,and but eventually just "die", as in stars grow old and so.

Three, it will not even continue to expand, but it will do so an an increasing rate, meaning it will eventually tear itself apart.

Those are the ones I know of, there propobly exist more.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Monk
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Posted: 14th May 2009 12:23
Is there not a theory that eventually gravity will slow the expansion to 0, and the universe will just stay at one set size for ever...

Chris K
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Posted: 14th May 2009 17:21
Everything will end up as very cold goop.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Grandma
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Posted: 14th May 2009 18:24
My theory is 'business as usual'. No definitive ending whatsoever.

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xplosys
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Posted: 14th May 2009 19:00
Quote: "and the universe will just stay at one set size for ever..."


Nothing stays the same, everything is always changing even when we can not see that change.

We often tend to think of the universe in terms of our humanity and understanding, as if it exists for us. I'm afraid that is far from the truth and the universe will be here, in whatever shape or form it may, long after we are gone.

Brian.

Lonnehart
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Posted: 14th May 2009 23:01
It'll always be there, that's true. And thanks to the second law of thermaldynamics it'll be either cold and dead, or squeezed into a very tiny point. I just hope we find a way to keep from going extinct (I believe in reincarnation, unfortunately...)
Pus In Boots
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Posted: 14th May 2009 23:59
Quote: "Sure we don't have to worry about it."


True, but our great great great great great...



...grandchildren will.

83% of women tested found Pus in Boots irresistable. (Based on a survey of 172 women.)
AndrewT
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Posted: 15th May 2009 00:11
Quote: "True, but our great great great great great...

+ Code Snippet

great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great...



...grandchildren will. "


I think you're going to need a lot more greats than that.

i like orange
Demon Air 3D
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Posted: 15th May 2009 00:34 Edited at: 15th May 2009 00:35
Quote: "I think you're going to need a lot more greats than that."


Like this ?
AndrewT
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Posted: 15th May 2009 00:44 Edited at: 15th May 2009 00:44
Quote: "Like this ?"


Well assuming one generation is 20 years, 1239 (the number of 'Greats' you posted) generations times 20 years is only 24,780 years--surely (and hopefully!) the universe won't be over by then?

i like orange
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 15th May 2009 02:03
I'd go for the reimplosion theory! maybe a big bang occurs when a black hole reaches a critical(er) density! Or maybe... just maybe...


I'd guess the universe will last at least another 90 billion years. Thats what, 4.5 billion generations?
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th May 2009 02:24
Quote: "unless someone eats a giant burrito and lets out "The Big Rip"..."

Not funny. 1: Fart jokes are funny only for 7 year olds. 2: The Big Rip is a perfectly valid theory, and one I have chosen to believe in.

Remember what it was like before you were born? Of course you don't, you didn't exist. And that's what will happen to the universe in the end -- according to The Big Rip theory.

NOTE: Look at my wording -- I've carefully chosen how to say everything as to not impose an anti-religious "No, this is what's going to happen."

Another note; The universe staying at a fixed size is only a valid scientific theory if it's a "religious science." -- Besides Scientology (I'm NOT a Scientologist, btw).


Cheers,

-naota

Satchmo
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Posted: 15th May 2009 03:15
Quote: "Another note; The universe staying at a fixed size is only a valid scientific theory if it's a "religious science." -- Besides Scientology (I'm NOT a Scientologist, btw)."


Not really, many religions state that the world/universe will end eventually, just not when.

Monk
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Posted: 15th May 2009 12:51
Quote: "The universe staying at a fixed size is only a valid scientific theory if it's a "religious science.""


How do you figure that one? Its no more religious than the "apocalyptic" big crunch theory. Besides, there all theories, and unless anyone is gonna wait a few billion years to find out, we cant prove any of these theories at all.

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 15:59
Slaps anyone?
Who thinks that would be - great great great great great great...?

Please. No more of that.

Quote: "Besides, there all theories, and unless anyone is gonna wait a few billion years to find out, we cant prove any of these theories at all."

It is called FAITH. That what any religion, even athiestism, is all about.


a.k.a WOLF!
dark coder
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Posted: 15th May 2009 16:41 Edited at: 15th May 2009 16:42
Quote: "even athiestism, is all about."


Lacking a belief in something doesn't require any faith(assuming you meant to write atheism).

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 17:03 Edited at: 15th May 2009 17:14
Quote: "Lacking a belief in something doesn't require any faith(assuming you meant to write atheism)."


Actually it does. Lacking a belief in "something" DOES require faith. Why?
Because it can not be proven that "something" does not exist. A person must BELIEVE that the "something" does not exist. If a belief (or lack of belief) can not be proven, then it is not certain. If it is not certain, then it requires "faith".
If you are an atheist, then you "believe" that there is no God. You can't prove it. That is the conclusion that you have come to and you have faith in your answer for your own reasons. As a Christian, I believe in God. I can't prove it. But I have faith in the answer that I have come to for my own reasons.
It's the same equation.


a.k.a WOLF!
dark coder
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Posted: 15th May 2009 17:36 Edited at: 15th May 2009 17:36
Quote: "Because it can not be proven that "something" does not exist."


Then you're talking about gnosticism and agnosticism which both pertain to knowledge(what can be proven).

Quote: "A person must BELIEVE that the "something" does not exist."


Lacking a belief in something is different to believing in a lack of something. The same way that if a jury finds someone not-guilty, that doesn't mean they find them innocent; if you're amoral that doesn't mean you're immoral etc.

Quote: "If you are an atheist, then you "believe" that there is no God."


That's anti-theism or strong-atheism. Atheism in itself is simply a(without)theism(god), to be a theist is to believe in any god, to be an atheist is to be without a belief in any god.

Quote: "As a Christian, I believe in God. I can't prove it."


This makes you an agnostic-theist then, i.e. you believe without knowledge. THIS image should clear it up.

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 18:01 Edited at: 15th May 2009 18:04
Everyone is agnostic. There is no absolute "proof" either way. That is the point! That is what faith is all about.

You either believe in a religion without proof OR disbelieve in religions without proof. If "proof" (or knowledge) was absolute, then faith and belief would not be required. It would be fact.
If God was absolutely proven as fact, it would be impossible to be an athiest. If God was absolutely proven to not exist, it would be impossible to be a theist.
The fact is that God can not be proven or disproven. So to believe in him or not belive in him requires faith in your respective belief.

So, you could wipe off the bottom half of that pic. It is an impossible situation. If that situation was possible, then you could wipe of the left or right side of the pic (depending on the proof).


a.k.a WOLF!
dark coder
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Posted: 15th May 2009 18:22
Quote: "There is no absolute "proof" either way."


You're referring to absolute certainty here, which is as a useless concept for the following reason: If I drop a pen, will it fall? Of course. But I can't be 100% certain of this as unicorns could cause it to fly upward. But as I have no reason to believe it won't fall, I'm certain to a degree that it will fall, and this is to a high degree. Whenever someone talks about being certain about something it's always to a degree(unless it's esoteric knowledge), and for this reason you can be gnostic.

Quote: "If God was absolutely proven as fact, it would be impossible to be an athiest."


Only if you had been shown this evidence that makes it undeniable. But again, calling it fact in this sense is the same as absolute knowledge.

Quote: "So to believe in him or not belive in him requires faith in your respective belief."


As outlined in my previous post, you require faith to believe in something without sufficient evidence but not to lack a belief in it. Do you have faith an invisible teapot is orbiting Saturn right now? Do you have faith there is no teapot orbiting it? Or do you simply lack a belief in there being a teapot there(these are all different stances).

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 19:02 Edited at: 15th May 2009 19:03
Quote: "You're referring to absolute certainty here, which is as a useless concept for the following reason: If I drop a pen, will it fall? Of course. But I can't be 100% certain of this as unicorns could cause it to fly upward. But as I have no reason to believe it won't fall, I'm certain to a degree that it will fall, and this is to a high degree. Whenever someone talks about being certain about something it's always to a degree(unless it's esoteric knowledge), and for this reason you can be gnostic."


I agree. Which is why I think it is impossible to be gnostic. Everyone is agnostic. Unless you "believe" in esoteric knowledge about a subject like this.

Quote: "Only if you had been shown this evidence that makes it undeniable. But again, calling it fact in this sense is the same as absolute knowledge."


We agree again. It is impossible to PROVE either way. If absolute knowledge was possible (being gnostic), then belief/unbelief would not be possible as it would simply be fact. Faith would also not be possible.

Quote: "As outlined in my previous post, you require faith to believe in something without sufficient evidence but not to lack a belief in it. Do you have faith an invisible teapot is orbiting Saturn right now? Do you have faith there is no teapot orbiting it? Or do you simply lack a belief in there being a teapot there(these are all different stances)."


If you think something is true or false without proof, then faith is required. If you actively don't believe in something (unbelief) or passively don't believe in something (lack-of-belief) you still have some faith that you are correct. If you had no faith that you were correct then you would have faith that you are incorrect. Then you would simply change your mind!

We may have to agree to disagree about this! LOL


a.k.a WOLF!
xplosys
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Posted: 15th May 2009 19:20
Quote: "If absolute knowledge was possible (being gnostic), then belief/unbelief would not be possible as it would simply be fact."


But how would that stop us from arguing about it.

Brian.

dark coder
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Posted: 15th May 2009 19:39
Quote: "I agree. Which is why I think it is impossible to be gnostic."


You missed my point then. The point of the first paragraph was the illustrate that absolute certainty is a useless concept so there's no point in applying it to gnosticism. As such, to be a gnostic isn't to be absolutely sure you know something exists, but only to a degree of certainty, thus it's very possible to be a gnostic on either side.

Quote: "If you actively don't believe in something (unbelief)"


As my other 2 points have been pointing at, this isn't what unbelief is. Think of it this way: Belief(faith) - Unbelief(no faith) - Disbelief(faith). When you apply that to god it becomes: Theism(faith) - Atheism(no faith) - Anti-theism(faith).

t10dimensional
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:00
It takes more faith to be an athiest.

If at first you don't succeed-Pause-Go to last checkpoint
Lukas W
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:13
Maybe our universe is in fact part of a larger universe. Or in other words, we are simply the inside properties of the core of an electron, part of a molecule, part of a cell, part of YOU!?

Grandma
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:14
And just when we had a streak of intelligent debate, someone chimes in with a baseless opinion seemingly only designed to provoke.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:45 Edited at: 15th May 2009 20:46
Quote: "As such, to be a gnostic isn't to be absolutely sure you know something exists, but only to a degree of certainty, thus it's very possible to be a gnostic on either side."


From what you are saying, a person being gnostic or agnostic is still personal perspective, not social. So yes, a person can consider himself gnostic or agnostic depending on his own degree of faith. I would consider myself gnostic. Yet from a social perspective I can not prove that God exists. Nor can anyone else. Nor can anyone prove otherwise. So socially, everyone is agnostic.


I think the only thing that we really disagree on is whether it takes faith to have a lack-of-belief in something. Other than that, I think we are mostly saying the same thing using different words.

So, to that point, I would say that you are right. It would take no faith to have a lack-of-belief in something. But, the only way you can have a lack-of-belief in something is if you are unaware of the subject.
If a person has never heard of the concept of God, how could he have belief/disbelief in it. There would be no way to measure faith, because it does not exist. In this scenario, I agree with you 100%
If a person does understand a concept, he either believes in it or not. THAT requires thought and a decision. A person has faith in his result even if he never considers the topic again in his life.

Applied to your point about the teapot orbiting saturn:
Before you mentioned it: I had no consideration of the subject / lack-of-belief / no faith existed.
After you mentioned it: Topic considered / un-belief / faith that I am correct.
Yet if someone did believe it, I could not prove them wrong!


a.k.a WOLF!
DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:50
The definition of faith.

Quote: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."


Now.

Quote: "Atheism(no faith)"


Is it not faith to believe that everything came from nothing, or that everything has always existed? Faith is required for ANY theory that is trying to give the answer to the creation of the universe. Why? Because there is no proof to support any of these theories.


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Mr Z
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:56 Edited at: 15th May 2009 21:08
Quote: "It takes more faith to be an athiest."


Please explain.

Quote: "Is it not faith to believe that everything came from nothing, or that everything has always existed? Faith is required for ANY theory that is trying to give the answer to the creation of the universe. Why? Because there is no proof to support any of these theories."


Atheism is not science. Wikipedia about atheism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

The most important part:
"Atheism is the position that deities do not exist, or the rejection of theism. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities."

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Grandma
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:58 Edited at: 15th May 2009 20:59
What about apathy? People that haven't come to any form of conclusion because they are more interested in sharp and pointy mountains or whatever occupies their mind.

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Lonnehart
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:03
... never thought that kind of thinking would leak into a thread like this. It's true the Universe won't end. It'll just change form. It's proven scientific fact that nothing can truly be destroyed. It only changes form. The Universe will change form eventually...

Basically in its final form energy will be in total equilibrium; the Universe will be totally empty because all the free energy we've been using now will be evenly distributed. We all have the Second Law of Thermaldynamics to thank for this...
Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:11
Quote: "It's proven scientific fact that nothing can truly be destroyed."

You're ALMOST right there. The laws of conservation of energy and matter say that energy (and matter) can never be destroyed or created. They can only be changed from one form to another. In the end, all energy generated by anything ends up as waste heat energy.
HOWEVER!
There is (or was) a substance called antimatter before the big bang. Antimatter and matter CANNOT coexist. When antimatter and matter come in contact with one another, they destroy each other. Totally and completely destroy. They cease to exist.
After the big bang, there was slightly more matter than antimatter. THAT is why the universe is mostly empty. After all the antimatter was gone, (Destroyed along with most of the matter) the matter that was left formed all the planets and stars and such.

If the good lord had intended us to go outside or have a social life, he wouldn't have invented the internet.
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:18 Edited at: 15th May 2009 21:20
DB PROgrammer,

Quote: "Is it not faith to believe that everything came from nothing, or that everything has always existed? Faith is required for ANY theory that is trying to give the answer to the creation of the universe. Why? Because there is no proof to support any of these theories."


Atheism definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism
a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

Faith definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

Faith is a measure of belief.
Atheism is not: "having no faith". It is not believing in the concept. This still requires faith that you are correct in disbelieving the theory.
If an atheist chooses to not have an answer to "where everything comes from", he chose to not believe in any theory he had been exposed to. To not believe in any theory, you must have faith in each individual non-belief.

Mr Z,
Quote: "Quote: "It takes more faith to be an athiest."

Please explain."


While I didn't write that, I do agree.
It takes more faith because of consideration of the end results. Remember, no one can prove/disprove the existance of God.
I am a Christian. Let's say you are an atheist (I don't know for sure).
If we both die and you are correct, that is it. We both die.
If we both die and I am correct, my results are much better than yours. So, in either scenario, you lose. I only lose in one scenario.
You must have a strong faith that you are correct if you are willing to play those odds.


a.k.a WOLF!
dark coder
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:24
Quote: "There is (or was) a substance called antimatter before the big bang. Antimatter and matter CANNOT coexist. When antimatter and matter come in contact with one another, they destroy each other. Totally and completely destroy. They cease to exist."


No, they change form.

DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:27
@Mr Z
From the Wiki.

Quote: "Atheism tends towards skepticism regarding supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence."


That's fine, but to be an Atheist you must believe something about the creation of the universe. There will be no proof for that belief; Therefore it requires faith, even leading Atheists admit that.

@Grandma
Quote: "What about apathy? People that haven't come to any form of conclusion because they are more interested in sharp and pointy mountains or whatever occupies their mind."


Then they would have no theory; Therefore, no faith would be required.


DBPro, limited by the programmer.
Grandma
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:28 Edited at: 15th May 2009 21:36
Quote: "While I didn't write that, I do agree.
It takes more faith because of consideration of the end results. Remember, no one can prove/disprove the existance of God.
I am a Christian. Let's say you are an atheist (I don't know for sure).
If we both die and you are correct, that is it. We both die.
If we both die and I am correct, my results are much better than yours. So, in either scenario, you lose. I only lose in one scenario. You must have a strong faith that you are correct if you are willing to play those odds."

Let me comment on that. While you believe in the christian god, you automatically have a disbelief in gods of any other religions, more or less. One that *might* be the real thing, we don't know. While atheists are safer in my opinion as we take no sides. And thus only offend the real god/s(if any) slightly less.

The odds of you praying to the "right" god is slim at best since there are litrally thousands of them. It's a slippery slope, I'd rather be a neutral good guy and eventually use that as a sales pitch if I ever end up on some after-death trial. If I still go to hell however, only because I was atheist, I will do so with a clear conscience as my morals tell me not to look up to people (or in this case, gods) that do bad things to good people.

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Jimpo
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:33 Edited at: 15th May 2009 21:34
Quote: "If we both die and you are correct, that is it. We both die.
If we both die and I am correct, my results are much better than yours. So, in either scenario, you lose. I only lose in one scenario."

Pascal's Wager isn't that clear cut. Of all the thousands of gods and all the different religious sects devoted to each god, it's almost statistically certain you've chosen the wrong god. As Homer Simpson said, "Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder."

Edit:
That sneaky Grandma beat me to it

Mr Z
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:35 Edited at: 15th May 2009 21:37
Quote: "While I didn't write that, I do agree.
It takes more faith because of consideration of the end results. Remember, no one can prove/disprove the existance of God.
I am a Christian. Let's say you are an atheist (I don't know for sure).
If we both die and you are correct, that is it. We both die.
If we both die and I am correct, my results are much better than yours. So, in either scenario, you lose. I only lose in one scenario.
You must have a strong faith that you are correct if you are willing to play those odds."


I am an atheist, it is quite simple. Have not seen anything that makes me believe in any deity. There is also a difference between us. You seem to think it has to do with winning or loosing, I don´t.


Quote: "That's fine, but to be an Atheist you must believe something about the creation of the universe. There will be no proof for that belief; Therefore it requires faith, even leading Atheists admit that."


Actually I do not believe in much about the creation of the universe. All theories have too many holes, including Big Bang. I do believe there never was a beginning, however it is more a matter of what is logical then faith.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:35
Quote: "I'd rather be a neutral good guy and eventually use that as a sales pitch if I ever end up on some after-death trial."


The problem with that is, most gods won't take a sales pitch. No, they're going to be pitching YOU.

My last sentance is a joke guys. Well, it could be true, but I'm not saying that it is.


DBPro, limited by the programmer.
Lonnehart
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:39
whoa... I didn't mean for this topic to become one about religion or lack of such... anyways.

Matter and Antimatter don't destroy each other. They're transformed into energy, and the conversion rate is 100% (meaning there's no matter left). Nuclear explosions only put out a conversion rate of 1 to 4 percent in comparison.

The way I see it, all matter (and antimatter) in the Universe is really just extremely concentrated energy. In the very extreme far future the universe will have nothing left but energy in it and it'll be at near equilibrium because energy will be evenly distributed at that point (unlike now where energy is concentrated into matter).
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:43 Edited at: 15th May 2009 21:45
Quote: "That's fine, but to be an Atheist you must believe something about the creation of the universe. There will be no proof for that belief; Therefore it requires faith, even leading Atheists admit that."


What the crap are you on about? How does lacking a belief in a god or believe no god exists require you to have some view on how the universe was created?

Quote: "If we both die and you are correct, that is it. We both die.
If we both die and I am correct, my results are much better than yours. So, in either scenario, you lose. I only lose in one scenario.
You must have a strong faith that you are correct if you are willing to play those odds."


Pascal's wager, how do you know your religion is correct?

Quote: "a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity"


I'm surprised they only included this definition and not the literal one as I would call this anti-theism or strong atheism(as most atheists would, I hope).

Quote: "Applied to your point about the teapot orbiting saturn:
Before you mentioned it: I had no consideration of the subject / lack-of-belief / no faith existed.
After you mentioned it: Topic considered / un-belief / faith that I am correct.
Yet if someone did believe it, I could not prove them wrong!"


Having faith that you are correct isn't the same as what I'm talking about. By that definition any possible stance I hold on anything requires faith but the stance itself doesn't require any faith.

As an atheist I lack a belief that any god exists, this doesn't require any faith on my part because I've seen zero evidence, or should I say... empirical evidence(as some people's bar for what evidence is, is very low) for any. This doesn't mean that in the absence of evidence I'm saying it's evidence of absence, simply that unless shown evidence I won't believe. But even if there was enough evidence, it wouldn't be faith, much like you don't need faith in scientific models.

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:46
Quote: "Let me comment on that. While you believe in the christian god, you automatically have a disbelief in gods of any other religions, more or less. One that *might* be the real thing, we don't know. While atheists are safer in my opinion as we take no sides. And thus only offend the real god/s(if any) slightly less.

The odds of you praying to the "right" god is slim at best since there are litrally thousands of them. It's a slippery slope, I'd rather be a neutral good guy and eventually use that as a sales pitch if I ever end up on some after-death trial."


Grandma,
I don't want to get too deep into "religion" as it is against the AUP. So far, the talk has been more philisophy. As a quick comment on the "offend the real God less" thing though, that doesn't work in any religion I know of. You either follow or you don't.
Also, there aren't really thousands of religions. Most are only slightly different from each other in very specific beliefs. Some are quite different from each other, but most share the same root.


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Posted: 15th May 2009 21:59
Quote: "What the crap are you on about? How does lacking a belief in a god or believe no god exists require you to have some view on how the universe was created?"


The only thing I was saying is that every theory about the start of the universe requires faith. Everyone has a theory, be it Christians, Atheists, ect. There is no proof for any of these theories; Therefore, everyone must have faith.

No doubt I'm on the wrong page.


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Grandma
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Posted: 15th May 2009 22:01 Edited at: 15th May 2009 22:01
Quote: "I don't want to get too deep into "religion" as it is against the AUP. So far, the talk has been more philisophy. As a quick comment on the "offend the real God less" thing though, that doesn't work in any religion I know of. You either follow or you don't."

But we can't possibly know if any god would get offended or not by praying to a different one. You sound certain of it that they don't.

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Posted: 15th May 2009 22:07 Edited at: 15th May 2009 22:09
Quote: "But we can't possibly know if any god would get offended or not by praying to a different one. You act like you are certain that they don't."


Well, I don't want to go all christian on ya, but as a example.

Quote: "Do not have any other gods before me."


Is the first commandment given by the christian god. It pretty much means you can't believe in any other god. If you don't follow the rule then your out'a the club.

Edit:

I forgot to say that I think almost every religon is pretty much the same and having no god is the same as having a different god.


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Posted: 15th May 2009 22:09
Quote: "Is the first commandment given by the christian god. It pretty much means you can't believe in any other god. If you don't follow the rule then your out'a the club."


Good point, Ron should switch to belief in Zeus on Odin, twice the odds right?

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th May 2009 22:09
Quote: "But we can't possibly know if any god would get offended or not by praying to a different one. You sound certain of it that they don't."


I'd love to get deeper, but I'd have to lock this topic and slap myself.

I think we all need to cool the religion talk down a peg now. It was fun. I could discuss this stuff all day. But this is about as long as a converation of this sort can stay civil. It's all down hill from here. The author of this thread has also made a couple of attempts to get this back on topic.

So, yeah... matter, anti-matter....


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Posted: 15th May 2009 22:12
Quote: "Good point, Ron should switch to belief in Zeus on Odin, twice the odds right?"


Lol, if all your going on is odds then sure. I think Ron was just explaining the "It takes more faith to be an athiest." comment, I doubt that is how he decides his belief.


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Posted: 15th May 2009 22:13 Edited at: 15th May 2009 22:15
I'm well aware of the commandments. I'm speaking of the general concept of god/s now. Not what religions say about them. We can't know for certain that the religious texts are 100% "genuine" for lack of better word.

Edit:
Quote: "I think we all need to cool the religion talk down a peg now. It was fun. I could discuss this stuff all day. But this is about as long as a converation of this sort can stay civil. It's all down hill from here. The author of this thread has also made a couple of attempts to get this back on topic."

Ok, it was fun while it lasted.

Yeah... so, matter eh? What's up with that.

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