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Geek Culture / Square Enix pulls the trigger on Chrono Trigger fan projects

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th May 2009 10:13
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http://www.joystiq.com/2009/05/12/square-enix-pulls-the-trigger-on-chrono-trigger-fan-projects/

I've lost a lot of respect for Square Enix now... That was a really dick move, no matter how you look at it.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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JLMoondog
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Posted: 15th May 2009 10:31
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Square hasn't been Square for a long time...

Though there are very few company's that allow fan fiction like this. Only IP I know that has an open fan fiction base is Star Wars. George Lucas seems to highly encourage it!

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th May 2009 11:11
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It's not like square enix is going to do anything worthwhile with their IP anyway, so why squish what loyal fans have labored FIVE YEARS to do? It's the five years part that really gets me. I mean seriously. Can you imagine working on a project like that for that amount of time, anticipating the pat on the backs and to sit back and watch your work prosper, and then some giant company comes along and is like, "Nope, even though we've watched you do this for a half a decade, we are now not going to allow it even though your a few months out." Very low.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Butter fingers
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Posted: 15th May 2009 11:17
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well... if they were going to make such a serious time investment, maybe it would have been worth seeking the IP holder's permission first? That way this could have been avoided!

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2009 11:29
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I'd have more sympathy if they'd drawn their own sprites, maybe Square Enix would have had more sympathy too.

But what is to stop them from changing the graphics, changing the character names, and releasing it anyway?

I mean if all the took was character names and sprites, then changing those and letting the game stand on it's own merits is the logical step, that would show a lot of confidence I think.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th May 2009 12:12
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It's not as if the project has to be dropped, just changed - what they've got there is no doubt decent enough to be a project on its own without Crono Trigger characters or graphics.

It really does suck, but sadly, companies do have the right to do the whole C&D thing, fan games aren't always strictly legal and for them to be legitimate you need permission, normally companies don't care and let their fans get on with it, so I do agree that it is a bit harsh, but it's not a dodgy thing for them to do and certainly fan game makes who want to spend a great deal of effort ought to get permission.

Though does anybody know Square's side of the argument? (just to avoid being one sided)

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2009 12:33
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Ahh, see I didn't read the CaD document before - this is a ROM hack?

That's a completely different story, any team who happily spends 5 years on a ROM hack do not deserve to have their work recognized or distributed. Imagine if TGC release an iPhone game, then some takes it, and changes some of the data - does that mean they are entitled to redistribute it for free?

Good on Square Enix, this is not a case of someone putting 5 years of hard work into something, it's a hack job, if they are not happy then let them go acquire some skills to make their own IP, they might learn what actually goes into making a game.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th May 2009 12:44
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It's probably done using a patch; you can get patches for Fire Emblem that contain no copyrighted data and add the English language. So they might not have distributed any copyrighted material at all, only a tool to mutate it if you own a copy.

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David R
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Posted: 15th May 2009 13:50 Edited at: 15th May 2009 13:54
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Quote: "who happily spends 5 years on a ROM hack do not deserve to have their work recognized or distributed"

Quote: "this is not a case of someone putting 5 years of hard work into something, it's a hack job"


Err... have you ever tried altering ROMs before? (Beyond just random alterations / corruptions)

Hacking a ROM to do anything useful, let alone making an entirely new game (scenario/levels etc.) takes some serious skill and commitment. Whilst I agree with the copyright half of it, I don't understand why Square couldn't have just allowed this to exist 'underground'.

EDIT: Although I assume with the fairly recent DS variant, even though this hack is on a game from 1995, there is a risk it could endanger the revenue from the newer one, in which case, fair play to Square. If there had been no follow up or further development to the game, it may have been slightly screwy of Square to get anal - but this franchise is still around.

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2009 14:37
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Roms? - not exactly, I've hacked games before, I mean usually just to cheat or add in a cheeky message to my friends, but this is something I did in the late 80's, early 90's with a hex editor.

I know what is involved in changing level layouts, enemies and dialogue, and I know what is involved in making a game - so I stand by my post.

These guys are not out there on their own with a hex editor and a plucky attitude - there are lots of editors out there for Chrono Trigger, there is a lot of knowledge about the game internals out there, there are other CT hacks out there, here's just a few of the tools available:
http://www.zophar.net/utilities/sneslevel.html

The fact that this is even being discussed simply tells me that it's being blown out of proportion. To be honest I'm getting sick of this new tabloid attitude we are seeing in IT 'news'. If it makes a big company look bad for no good reason then that's apparently newsworthy.


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th May 2009 17:43
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A company MUST protect their copyrights at all costs, and that involves putting indie's out of business. In the future if a real company were to steal their properties, it would be tougher to go after them if they let everyone else get away with it. It's standard practice and generally doesn't say anything about the company itself.

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gbark
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:12 Edited at: 15th May 2009 20:12
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I have to go with Square Enix here. If it was just a fangame based on SE's sprites and characters then it would be different (and SE probably wouldn't have even said anything in that case).

Since it was a direct ROM hack of a copyright game then Square Enix has every right to do what they did. Not saying I commend them for waiting five years just before the release to do it, but I do think if someone's going to devote that much time into a project they should either develop their own Engine or make sure they secure the rights to use an existing ROM or Engine.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:16
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It doesn't contain any content from the game whatsoever! This would be distributed in patch form so all it lists is positions in the ROM and the new data!

Jeez, are you incapable of reading my posts?

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2009 20:24
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We're quite capable of reading your posts, and forming our own views.

Do you think all their work has any point whatsoever without the Chrono Trigger ROM in the first place? - to even see the game people have to download the ROM, then patch it. It's practically the same as distributing the patched ROM, there's no value whatsoever in that argument.


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JLMoondog
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Posted: 16th May 2009 01:17
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Before I didn't know it was a ROM hack, now I'm behind Square 100%.

Downloading a ROM in the first place is illegal..and no, It's not alright to download one that you actually own. That goes with any media, unless it's brought to you through a service that has the right to re-distribute, usually for a member fee.

Basically this game is saying 'download the rom and the alter it with our patch'.

Also, Square might not have even known about the game until recently. An employee might have found it, reported it, then lawyers probably stepped in to assess the situation. Might have taken them some time to go through this process.

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Dr Tank
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Posted: 16th May 2009 02:26
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Fair enough stop them from selling it, but to order all their work destroyed is just wrong on a massive scale. I'll try not to buy anything from Square in future.

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Dragon Knight
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Posted: 16th May 2009 02:58
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the game will obviously reach the public no matter what..., they should have bought it off them as a second edition to ct

, it's a shame to see 5 years work go to waste and if i were those people i'm 100% sure i wouldn't delete every copy of it, i'd at least keep myself a copy so i could copy those files and give them to my friends.

Square-Enix = mean, they aint getting any money off chrono, so why do this? Hmm unless they're planning on buying it secretly off these guys and releasing it themselves lol or stealing everything off the guys who worked on it for 5 years then remaking it themselves lol with 100% profits


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Jeku
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Posted: 16th May 2009 03:16
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Quote: "Fair enough stop them from selling it, but to order all their work destroyed is just wrong on a massive scale. I'll try not to buy anything from Square in future."


Why do people put so much effort into fangames anyway? They should use their creativity to create new IP.

Quote: "they aint getting any money off chrono, so why do this?"


Um, they just released Chrono Trigger on the DS with updated graphics and sound. They are still actively using the IP.

Quote: "Hmm unless they're planning on buying it secretly off these guys and releasing it themselves lol or stealing everything off the guys who worked on it for 5 years then remaking it themselves lol with 100% profits"


It would also be illegal for Square to take their code and release it without their permission. Yes, that might sound weird, but the authors have a copyright over new storylines, characters, etc.

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Aertic
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Posted: 16th May 2009 16:10 Edited at: 16th May 2009 16:14
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Sad to see the fan game go actualy... >.> TBH, I had my eye out for it... lolofonez.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-'Butterfingers'
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Herakles
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Posted: 18th May 2009 03:41
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Essentially what these guys did is release a mod for the game but also release the actual game. So, in essence, it's piracy.

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Roxas
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Posted: 18th May 2009 16:26
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Square-Enix has gone bad when Enix and Squaresoft joined and when they kicked out all the good people.. Well i belive Level 5 is the new Squaresoft =) Level 5 have been very awesome so far.

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Van B
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Posted: 18th May 2009 17:02
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Quote: "Why do people put so much effort into fangames anyway? They should use their creativity to create new IP."


That's what I've been thinking since this thread was posted - surely it's easier to start from scratch with your own IP and no legal problems than hacking someone elses engine!. I can't imagine how anyone could work on something for 5 years that is never going to be theirs... and where do they go from here?

I mean with some determination, in that time they could easily have developed their own engine for the DS - and possibly even sold the damn thing instead of having it taken away. It's not just the drag on potential that has, but I'm wondering just how much joy is in hacking 20-year old engines. The fun in game development for me comes from deciding what you want to see happen, and making it happen. Starting out in a system that has already decided what should and shouldn't happen makes no sense to me.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th May 2009 17:31
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Quote: "Square-Enix has gone bad when Enix and Squaresoft joined and when they kicked out all the good people.."


I've been waiting a little while for Square to improve, FFX-2 is not to be spoken of and FFXII I didn't particularly enjoy, though The Last Remant was an improvement on that. I think FFXIII will perhaps change that, I dunno, but I think there's potential with Tri-ace as well, though I've not play Infinite Undiscovery, I can't wait for the EU release of Star Ocean 4 next month. Though Tri-Ace have hooked up with Square Enix for those 2.

As for this Herakles perhaps puts it well into a single sentence. To compare if I were to hack the latest Tomb Raider so I could release a mod then it'd be a breach of copyright law. Square are making money off of Crono Trigger with their DS release. I don't see how a grudge could be passed onto Square for it. At least they've not sued, which they'd be more than capable of doing.

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David R
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Posted: 18th May 2009 17:52 Edited at: 18th May 2009 17:57
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Quote: "Why do people put so much effort into fangames anyway? They should use their creativity to create new IP"


By that logic, why do people put so much effort into mods etc.? It's a similar concept, but it can still have amazing results. Overall I think the "Why didn't you make something entirely new?" argument is just a bit... rubbish. These people obviously thoroughly enjoyed and the game/series/franchise, but wish there was more of it (or that it ended up slightly differently etc.). Why do they have to make their own IP for? They're clearly not using this for malicious intent, so other than this instance (where the IP is still being used/developed) I really fail to see why it annoys people so much.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th May 2009 18:10
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That's the thing, mods are perfectly legal and you're not going to risk a C&D from making HL2 Mod as Valve give people permission. It can be a good learning experience in working with an engine as well as get your work recognised.

Hacking and modding the Crono Trigger ROM is not legal and as you can see here companies don't necessarily like it when their product is being hacked, modded and redistributed, there is a hint of piracy in there as well, either way they're using material that has copyright belonging to Square and they decided they had the right to ask them to stop. Which I think is fair giving they're still making money off of Crono Trigger as they have they're released a DS version of it. It'd probably be a bit harsh if they did it to a normal fan-made project, though they do still would have the legal right and most companies don't care, hence there are a lot of Sonic and Zelda fan games that aren't give the old C&D and note that there are even Square Fan Games; there's a very good Final Fantasy one out there that Square has taken no notice of. Some of their media was used and certainly the name was used without their permission. I think it's just an issue of the fact it's a ROM and they're releasing Crono Trigger DS.

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Van B
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Posted: 18th May 2009 18:59
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It just falls into too many avenues, piracy, copyright breaches... Squares lawyers will be looking at this from all angles, and emulation and piracy are becomming more widespread on portable consoles.

If Square see the DS as a solid platform for releasing games on, they will want to protect their titles. So as petty as it might seem for a PC gamer, some DS gamers might look at this and understand a little more, and maybe even feel guilty. To use emulation on the DS, or homebrew, you need some sort of flash memory cartridge - and that same cartridge allows pirate games.

If people play the emulated CT on the DS, there's little to stop them simply nabbing the DS version, plus any other Square title for that matter. Most people don't view emulation as being nearly as bad as piracy, and it is a shame that it's largely tied in with the same 'rules'.


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David R
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Posted: 18th May 2009 19:53
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Quote: "Hacking and modding the Crono Trigger ROM is not legal and as you can see here companies don't necessarily like it when their product is being hacked"


I wasn't comparing it to this specific instance - more fangames in general. In my opinion, the line between mods and fangames/fan alterations is pretty blurry

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th May 2009 21:45
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Quote: "By that logic, why do people put so much effort into mods etc.?"


Don't get me wrong, both are creative in their own ways. But creating a mod saves you the trouble of creating an engine from scratch, and there's the possibility of publishing (Killing Floor, Counterstrike, L4D, etc.) Making a fangame seems pointless because it's destined to be a losing situation.

Quote: "I really fail to see why it annoys people so much."


Nobody here seems annoyed other than you

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