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Geek Culture / I actualy....

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Alucard94
17
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Joined: 9th Jul 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 20th May 2009 22:07
Quote: "I've had a lot of problems with programs just crashing silently too - especially Maya, though that's probably AutoDesk's fault. It works much better on Windows."

Don't know what you're talking about, have been using a Mac for quite some time now and I constantly run Maya without it ever crashing. Not to say programs don't crash; they do probably just as often as they do in Windows or whatever.
Honestly people will always complain about things they don't have seeing as hell; most of us are selfish and we like to want to think that the thing that we have is the best. My view of OS's is just to think of them like a bunch of different tools, all of them being the same tool but from different manufacturers; you simply use whichever you prefer and makes it work good for you.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
Jeku
Moderator
21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 21st May 2009 04:23
Quote: "I'd say it's an expression of their UI philosophy rather than a description of the OS itself (minimalist, lacking redundant feedback etc.)"


Well my UI philosophy is "show me as much detailed information as humanly possible in your error messages". I hate when things just don't work, and there's no relevant error message.

Dave J
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Joined: 11th Feb 2003
Location: Secret Military Pub, Down Under
Posted: 21st May 2009 04:28 Edited at: 21st May 2009 04:29
I don't generally have a lot of problems with either OS, both occasionally have programs crash on them but nothing major. However, a noticeable difference I had was when trying to use a Bluetooth mouse. As soon as I turned it on, OSX detected it and automatically set it up so it was working in seconds. Windows, on the other hand gave me hell as it detected it and claimed to install it, but it wouldn't work, after almost an hour of downloading different drivers (since no drivers existed for this particular mouse), I finally found one that worked and got it going (although the battery indicator light still doesn't turn on). Incredibly frustrating, but the real kicker is that it was a Microsoft mouse as well.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
Jeku
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21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 21st May 2009 04:33
Quote: "since no drivers existed for this particular mouse"


There's your problem there. I mean, we've come pretty far in tech advances when we hear complaints about hardware not working on an OS when there's no driver for the product.

I remember not that long ago having to manually change jumpers on my hardware and then hoping I could install it in Windows before Plug-and-Play was a notion. Manually changing IRQs and disabling things here and there for troubleshooting was not very fun

David R
21
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Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 21st May 2009 12:32 Edited at: 21st May 2009 12:36
Quote: "
Well my UI philosophy is "show me as much detailed information as humanly possible in your error messages". I hate when things just don't work, and there's no relevant error message."


Which is why Apple build OS X and not you

Most of the time there is an error any way, it just logs it in detail but doesn't present it directly. Which in some cases is inconvenient, but a lot of the time, completely understandable. USB errors in particular are understandable, because most of them cannot actually be fixed - so why show the user?

I experienced that with a malfunctioning Creative music player the other day. Didn't show up any where. Went into the log and saw "Device is not conforming with 1.5.3 section of the USB specification" with lots of detailed explanation. Showing that to the user is completely pointless. Even summarising to "Your device is broken" is not exactly going to be useful because there is no corrective action.

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Roxas
19
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Joined: 11th Nov 2005
Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 21st May 2009 13:54
Quote: "Well my UI philosophy is "show me as much detailed information as humanly possible in your error messages". I hate when things just don't work, and there's no relevant error message."

I know how you feel. In Windows applications just would crash and you have no clue what the heck is happening. In Wine if you run with debug messages you know if the proplem is either in DLL depency or unimplented Wine function(aka the program does not work in wine yet).

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
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Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 21st May 2009 14:13 Edited at: 21st May 2009 14:16
I dunno, Roxas, I've often had "The program failed to start because xxxxx.dll is not present." when moving programs from system to system under XP and the DLL is usually pretty easy to find.



Here is my Hadouken game engine failing to start because I forgot to copy alut.dll.

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Jeku
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21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 21st May 2009 17:39
Quote: "Most of the time there is an error any way, it just logs it in detail but doesn't present it directly. Which in some cases is inconvenient, but a lot of the time, completely understandable."


Well, I would think it's more understandable to show the error than to hide it away in some file somewhere. If my grandmother plugs in an MP3 player and it just doesn't work, that will be a lot more frustrating for her (and for me, who will inevitably get a phone call about it), than if it showed the error in a dialog box. At least I could make a decision faster as to what to do.

Can you imagine if every mechanical device you owned didn't show any error indicators and just died silently? That would suck!

David R
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Location: 3.14
Posted: 21st May 2009 17:53 Edited at: 21st May 2009 18:02
Quote: "hide it away in some file somewhere."


It's not hidden. You have to open one program and ask it for the last message. That's it. Remember though, that's only if it's a "You're screwed" error (like the USB device not functioning error). Most other stuff pops up somewhere else (the system config viewer thing will show driver-less devices, for example. Same as device manager under Windows. Just without the pointless bubble popups which don't actually tell you the error)

Quote: "If my grandmother plugs in an MP3 player and it just doesn't work, that will be a lot more frustrating for her (and for me, who will inevitably get a phone call about it), than if it showed the error in a dialog box. At least I could make a decision faster as to what to do."


Actually, I don't think there would be any difference. She would probably just say "It doesn't work" either way. On Windows, it's unlikely she would even tell you the error text, because old people and not-computer-savvy people tend to not read the errors and just say "It didn't work". Either way, you're getting a call saying it doesn't work. There is absolutely no difference at all.

And OS X actually logs the full error details somewhere. Minor errors have a tendency to be ignored under Windows' system log - so unless Grandma remembered the error, you're going to have extra rigmarole. Under OS X though: just open a log. Case closed.

I think the OS X approach only poses a problem if you're used to Windows (and you expect feedback for both success and failure). Once you get used to OS X's method of "No feedback/Not appearing/working = Failure" it makes more sense. It only seems stupid because Windows' method is prevalent.

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Roxas
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Joined: 11th Nov 2005
Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 21st May 2009 18:09 Edited at: 21st May 2009 18:10
Yes, there is still some of Error messages that does not say anything about dll, this is usually when DLL tries to call DLL (Eg. directx, microsoft net) but usually they report the "You dont have installed error."
But yeah you get the point

So rather than installing big depencies i could just search for right dll and drag it in.

Libervurto
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Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 22nd May 2009 04:25
Little off topic:
I have a fairly old PC (2005ish) and I want to reinstall a simple fast OS. I've got win98 but I was thinking about linux, I assume DB runs fine on that and could you run Windows programs on it like visual express?
There are several linux-based OS's aren't there?
I'll go browse their site but if anyone has any tips or recommendations I'd be grateful.

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dab
20
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2004
Location: Your Temp Folder!
Posted: 22nd May 2009 04:38
Regarding:

Quote: "I hate when things just don't work, and there's no relevant error message."


Five reasons computers must be female...
5.- No one but their creator understands their internal logic.
4.- Even your smallest mistakes are immediately committed to memory for future reference.
3.- The native language used to communicate with other computers is incomprehensible to everyone else.
2.- The message, "Bad command or filename", is about as informative as "if you don't know why I'm mad at you, then I'm certainly not going to tell you".
1.- As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find yourself spending half your paycheck on accessories for it.


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JoelJ
21
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Joined: 8th Sep 2003
Location: UTAH
Posted: 22nd May 2009 09:40
Quote: "I assume DB runs fine on that and could you run Windows programs on it like visual express?"

No and no. Well, I'm assuming by Visual Express you mean Visual Studio Express. I've yet to hear of someone get Visual Studio to work at all on linux. And correct me if I'm wrong, but no one has gotten DB to work either.

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Toasty Fresh
17
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Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: In my office, making poly-eating models.
Posted: 22nd May 2009 10:08
Quote: "you find yourself spending half your paycheck on accessories for it."


Accessories? Ew!

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
Roxas
19
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Joined: 11th Nov 2005
Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 22nd May 2009 20:52
Quote: "No and no. Well, I'm assuming by Visual Express you mean Visual Studio Express. I've yet to hear of someone get Visual Studio to work at all on linux. And correct me if I'm wrong, but no one has gotten DB to work either."

DB and DBP works fine with Wine, atleast for me. As for Visual Express i dont know, http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=11210 But it sure does not look good. But i myself use Code::Blocks anyways wich is much more better IDE.

But if you really need to run programs that depends on Windows, i suggest you to install Windows. Installing Linux to run Win programs is kind of akward. If you still are installing Linux and are new to it. And want something Fast. Then good newbie friendly and fast is Xubuntu. Its basically same as Ubuntu but uses less fancy Desktop XFCE while Ubuntu uses Gnome and Kubuntu KDE, so it runs better.

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