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Geek Culture / Project natal

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David R
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:04 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 22:05
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Quote: "You may disagree with me, but please try not to speak like that."


Turd is not a swear word, nor is it vulgar enough to warrant censoring.

Quote: "Not really, what about the PS2?"


What about it?

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:15 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 22:17
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Quote: "Turd is not a swear word, nor is it vulgar enough to warrant censoring."

Yes but saying "That's complete Turd" isn't really appropriate.

Quote: "What about it?"

Its still being developed for. Just because the PS2 isn't "Next Gen" doesn't mean it doesn't have the latest games. Call of Duty : World at War is on the PS2, which is a fairly recent game.

Anyway this is all irrelevant to the topic!

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David R
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:21 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 22:22
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Quote: "Its still being developed for. Just because the PS2 isn't "Next Gen" doesn't mean it doesn't have the latest games. Call of Duty : World at War is on the PS2, which is a fairly recent game.
"


The PS2 is somewhat of an exception, purely because:
- The market penetration of the PS3 is nothing compared to it
- The penetration of the PS2 is absolutely massive

If it wasn't for those things, development for the PS2 would be completely gone (or limited to small third parties). My point still stands, because the majority of 'high calibre' games still aren't available for PS2 (LittleBigPlanet, Killzone 2 etc. etc.) - the only ones that are, are multi-platform any way (or at least, I haven't seen any that are PS2+PS3 only)

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:33
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Quote: "Yes, it can do more - but the whole-body usage just sounds like it's going to end up as eyetoy, unless it can accurately differentiate between body parts."


It does. It works like facial recognition, but for your whole body. It maps a bone framework to your body and uses that to control the animation. Kind of like real-time motion capture from video instead of using sensors.
From what I have seen so far, it looks very well done!


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:43
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Considering also its Microsoft's first attempt at a motion sensor and its still in its early stages, its very promising.

Its easy to say "O it looks naff" etc etc, but if that was the kind of attitude people had when Pong came out, we wouldn't have the games we have today.

Yes Project Natal could very well be a huge flop, but its a step forward at least.

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David R
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:47 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 22:49
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It looks good (and the idea is clever) - the implementation on the other hand is bound to suck, which is what I was driving at.

I also think that lacking the tangibility of a controller could have a lot of practical disadvantages. For example, occasionally you change your 'hold' on the controller (move your hands slightly to readjust for comfort) - how will this technology interpret slight movements which aren't necessary for playing? (e.g. finger curling, wrist rotation etc.) And whats the viewing range/angle on the camera? Is it only straight ahead, or can it move/curve?

It just seems to me that a lot of 'real world' factors are against this technology being convenient and not irritating or flawed

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:53 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 23:05
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It has two cameras and is large enough to house its own tracking hardware, rather than the EyeToy which is just a single webcam. I'd think they'd use fish eye lenses to get a good all-round view.

EDIT:

It has a RGB colour camera, a monochrome depth camera and directional microphones.

http://uk.gear.ign.com/articles/988/988898p1.html

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 23:10 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 23:21
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Doing a little bit of digging, I came across this:

http://www.3dvsystems.com/gallery/gallery.html

It might be where Microsoft got their technology. If you look at these videos, you get a real idea that the technology is real and working!

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 23:12
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Quote: "Yes, it can do more - but the whole-body usage just sounds like it's going to end up as eyetoy, unless it can accurately differentiate between body parts."

Watch the videos before you start blindly criticizing it. You can clearly see that it can tell almost exactly where your hands, and even fingers, are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgztqcrBHvk

Watch as the characters movements on screen almost exactly mimmick the demonstrators, even down to wrist movement, and then tell me that is can't accurately differentiate between body parts.


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castek
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 23:15
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Here i found this article, Someone from IGN.com got to test it and says it works very well!

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/989/989269p1.html

this is where my signature is supposed to be.
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David R
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 23:22 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 23:36
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Quote: "and then tell me that is can't accurately differentiate between body parts.
"


All the demos are done standing up. What about people sat down or slouched? (potentially obscured by background objects etc.)

The silhouettes are clear when stood up, hence the perfect accuracy - but is that the same if the silhouettes aren't completely clear? Can the camera and depth camera work together to understand self-intersecting limbs, for example?

I wasn't "blindly" criticizing it: I was simply not being "blindly" swayed by what is effectively a marketing demo


EDIT: Presumably it uses motion to detect the person vs. the background - so what happens when multiple people are moving within camera view but only one person is playing? Does it continually perform facial recognition to work out who is playing?

It's really interesting technology, it would just be a bit more useful if they released some better detail on how it works (and how it will work practically in real households)

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 23:26
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Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9_VuqEymk&feature=related

You get a glimpse at how the technology works.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 23:37
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Quote: "The penetration of the PS2 is absolutely massive"




New DBPro IDE + integrated debugger!
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Darth Vader
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 09:22
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It's fascinating thinking about this technology! Another step close to virtual reality!

I was slightly concerned that it wouldn't be able to detect the small finger motion one makes when firing a gun. But there could still be 'bugs' or problems with this. But then again would revolutionary tech doesn't have problems!

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing this in action. Although I don't think it's for quite a while unfourtunately.

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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 16:36
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I do believe half of the video about motion sensing, but the jumping and flipping of the skate board so precisely needs a higher technology hardware that their expected $200 charge for the software is too low.

Only time will tell, I do believe Star Wars like TV's (holograms) just the image with no screen will be created soon. I say this because they have small TV's, but no large marketed TV's that resemble the hologram type TV.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 17:50
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Cool. For some applications it could be fun, for others it would suck. Sort of like any other way to control a game or program.

What I am worried about is the speech recognition. I always get the thought in my head that what happens if you start talking to the guy you play with, and say the wrong word...

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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dab
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 18:16
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Quote: " if you start talking to the guy you play with, and say the wrong word..."


I can see it now...

Guy 1: Woo! I just beat Halo 54! 100% unlocked
*Phone rings*
Guy 1: Hello?
Guy 2: Hey, it's Guy 2!
Guy 1: Hey Guy 2! What's up?
Guy 2: Hey, I heard from my xBox that you just beat Halo 54! Congratz!
Guy 1: Thanks!
Guy 2: You should probably format your xbox though.
Guy 1: Why would I format my xbox?
xBox: Formatting now.
Guy 1: NOOOOOOO!!!
Guy 2: Gotta go
*Phone hangs up*

Need a hideout for conversations? dab-Media IRC. irc.dab-media.com:6667
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Nickydude
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 20:38
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Sony joins new 'controller wars'.



THE ANSWER TO ALL FPSC QUESTIONS!
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 20:44
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@dab

This is Microsoft, there'd be at least six "are you sure"s before it switches on, let alone before it'd format itself.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 20:45
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NO-ONE CAN KNOW IF THIS WORKS OR NOT WITHOUT TRYING IT FIRST



I'm sorry, but it irritates me when people say 'This is bound not to work' without having tried it for themselves. I'm not saying it will work, but there isn't very much evidence either way, except for some demonstrations which were probably done in perfect conditions. So let's wait and see.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 21:29
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Quote: "I can see it now...

Guy 1: Woo! I just beat Halo 54! 100% unlocked
*Phone rings*
Guy 1: Hello?
Guy 2: Hey, it's Guy 2!
Guy 1: Hey Guy 2! What's up?
Guy 2: Hey, I heard from my xBox that you just beat Halo 54! Congratz!
Guy 1: Thanks!
Guy 2: You should probably format your xbox though.
Guy 1: Why would I format my xbox?
xBox: Formatting now.
Guy 1: NOOOOOOO!!!
Guy 2: Gotta go
*Phone hangs up*"


Lol, meant more if you played together, like two people in front of the same TV, and not something as drastic as formatting . Besides, I have a big mouth, so it is a genuine concern for me.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 23:17 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2009 23:18
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Quote: "If MS actually get's this to work, say goodbye to the Wii and Nintendo's 10 year gameplan."


While it may seem amazing, I can't see it replacing existing controller setups. Imagine how tiring it will be to play a fighting game for an hour. I would still prefer to play with as little body movement as possible for maximum comfort. It will be gimmicky for sure

North Korea 2007 Tour Pictures
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Mr Z
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 00:02
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Quote: "
While it may seem amazing, I can't see it replacing existing controller setups. Imagine how tiring it will be to play a fighting game for an hour. I would still prefer to play with as little body movement as possible for maximum comfort. It will be gimmicky for sure"


Yeah. Personaly I might like a fighting game, though, but that is because I happen to like martial arts. Depends on what you want. For example, I could not see an FPS work with this very well. But maybe that is me...

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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David R
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 00:09
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I think they must have a decent plan set out for how FPS's etc. will work though - because it seems MS are very serious with this (they've been detailing their plans for it for the next few years game-wise etc.) so I doubt they just skimmed over the genre and game that effectively kept their platform afloat (Halo) when designing it.

Or maybe this will be aimed exclusively at more family/casual games, and the controller kept for other things?

We'll have to wait I suppose...

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Mr Z
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 00:15
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Quote: "I think they must have a decent plan set out for how FPS's etc. will work though - because it seems MS are very serious with this (they've been detailing their plans for it for the next few years game-wise etc.) so I doubt they just skimmed over the genre and game that effectively kept their platform afloat (Halo) when designing it."


I am not saying they would not try, I personally do not think it would win my heart. FPS games I want to play with a controller of some sort, not by moving my body. If that make sense.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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Roxas
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 00:29 Edited at: 4th Jun 2009 00:29
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After seeing the Sony's response, i think i start beliving in this. Now if they just add nifty controllers =) Like weapons for FPS games and so on. Its much more fun to pull trigger and so. And not forgetting Milo, if it works like in that video we can finally see NPC's come to life.

BTW, does these stuff remind anybody of that Wii dude on youtube that did all the head tracking stuff and etc? Maybe someone hired him.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 00:47
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Quote: "Imagine how tiring it will be to play a fighting game for an hour."


I'd love it, at the moment an hour would get me a bit tired, but it'd just remind me of the stamina sessions I used to get when going to Karate. It'd be good practice whilst at home...that is if the technology will be as good at it looks - pressumably I'd be able to use my own style to block and counter attacks.

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Roxas
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 03:28
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Atleast people would not say gaming is unhealthy

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 06:56
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Sony's demonstration is not quite as impressive but may have more practical/ simple implementations. I'm really looking forward to all this mo-cap stuff...!

MISoft Studios - Silver-Dawn Gorilda is lost!

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Mr Z
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 08:28
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Quote: "Atleast people would not say gaming is unhealthy "


Ohhhh, that is what you say before you fall over something, hit the back of your head, and spend the rest of your life as a vegetable!

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 12:29
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Like in a past life Peter Griffin was a strawberry?

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 16:29
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Can you imagine the microsoft or sony controllers with good VR headgear?
Hopefully the release of these devices and the low cost of LCD tech will start to push VR head mounted displays to be better and more affordable.


a.k.a WOLF!
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 19:01
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This device looks like it would work for only a limited amount of games, and even then not very well, as the video was just a demo and all the actors were faking enthusiasm. Bending over to do a tire change would get old after a while when all you wanna do is race a car while drinking a beer on the couch.

Not bashing on the tech, it looks like a decent entry by Sony in an attempt to collect on some of that “kids playing with their parents” and “pretend to get real exercise ” cash that’s currently being farmed by Nintendo.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 19:44 Edited at: 4th Jun 2009 19:46
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I would get bored of certain types of games after the gimmick has worn off - racing and skateboarding are not the type of games I'd see myself playing with it, but fitness games, martial arts games, boxing games and all of that would keep me interested as it'd add to things like aerobics, shadow freestyle and shadow boxing.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 20:12
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Who says this tech has to "replace" how we play games now. There is plenty of room for both. This tech simply opens possibilities for new ways to play games. Those possibilities become their own genres.
Wii started the movement. Microsoft and Sony are polishing it. I think its awesome. It is advancement. Probably the biggest advancement to "games" since 3D.


a.k.a WOLF!
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Strelok
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 21:15
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I hope there next step will be a decent Virtual reality.

Signature removed - it is triggering ant-virus warnings.
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 01:13
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Not bashing on the tech, it looks like a decent entry by Sony"

Just wanna point out that this is Microsoft and not Sony.

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Roxas
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 01:34
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Quote: "Just wanna point out that this is Microsoft and not Sony."


He probably referred to this.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 18:43
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Probably meant to refer to both of them, sorry about that.
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