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Geek Culture / Is it possible to store data on vhs?

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 01:02
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I was just wondering if its possible to store digital information on VHS not nessercerily files but something along the lines of digital audio.

For example would this therory work:
use a DAC converter connected to a UHF modulator to provide a UHF signal which will will be picked up by the VCR and recorded onto the video tape.

I realise that one of the main setbacks of this theory would be deterioration of quality and lack of error correction but i assume that using a higher playback speed either by modifying a preset within the VCR or just using a shortplay function would improve reproduction.

If can anyone verify my theorys or think of an alternative method or even just tell me that its bloody impossible i would be very grateful.

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Jaeg
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 01:13
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Well since computers can store data on a cassette as audio then I guess something like this might be possible.....

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Benjamin
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 01:14
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It's probably possible but it's ultimately pointless.

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David R
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 01:24
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The noise vs. signal ratio is probably so high it renders any data you write to it completely unusable unless you duplicate (or add lots of algos/overhead to account for corruption). VHS tapes degrade in quality data/retention really, really quickly (which is one of the reasons why they're cheap)

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 01:45
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well it should i mean VHS movies have sound dont they?

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 02:03 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 02:04
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Yea but not CD quality digital audio. I would preferably like to make use of the full freqency range of the tape for the highest possible reprodution quality, thats why i thought inputing a digital signal to the UHF input would be a good way to store digital information on a VHS tape or failing that converting a digital signal to analogue using a DAC then when i need to convert back using an ADC converter. I like to see if it's possible to get 24bit audio on a tape which would mean it was actually better than CD and providing i can get a very fast playback from the tape (Probably reducing the playback time to around 80mins to match CD length) it may be possible.

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 02:13 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 02:14
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Quote: "The noise vs. signal ratio is probably so high it renders any data you write to it completely unusable"


True but with the addition of extreamly high speed (to spread the data and decrease deterioation), decent error correction and a high quality VCR/Cassette i dont think this would be a problem.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 02:50 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 02:51
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Is VHS analogue? If you stored your data in digital with extreme polarisation, I'd imagine it could be pretty viable.

If obsolete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-VHS

Someone already thought of this. 25Gb/casette!?

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Rudolpho
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 12:13
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Wow, didn't know the tapes where that long.

... sort of makes sense when you think about it though.

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 17:39
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lol just found this
Quote: "As video recorders became perfected technically it became possible to modify them and use analog to digital converters (codecs) for digital sound recording. This enabled tape mastering with greater dynamic range, low noise and distortion, and freedom from drop outs as well as pre- and post-echo. The digital recording was played back providing a high quality analog signal to master the lacquer/aluminum cut."

I got it off this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record

So it is possible?? I wonder if using the UHF input/output would be an acceptible way to do this.

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 17:58 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 18:08
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lol i also found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g94hO4Kubp8

The guy inl the video used a PAL encoder to create a PAL video signal, surely a video tape just records any frequency provided to it much like a cassete tape so wouldnt it be possible to record the raw signal to the tape either in analogue or digital form without the need to create a PAL complient signal?

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Zappo
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 18:18
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I am pretty sure there was a device to backup data to your VHS machine many, many years ago for home computers.
When I was a kid I built myself a little device based around a light dependent resistor in the centre of a sucker which stuck to my TV screen. With a handful of components it connected to the serial port of my Amiga and by flashing a square on and off in the corner of the screen and video taping it I could record the data and then read it back via the LDR. Of course it was ridiculously slow but it worked.
I expect you could do a similar thing now if you recorded your PC screen onto video tape and then played it back into a video capture card. You could split the screen into a grid and read back screen fulls of data at a time. Might make an interesting project, although probably not very useful.


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freak of nature 64
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 18:21
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It is very possible and very pointless (unless you don't have cd's cassets external hard drives or hard drive space).

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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 20:29
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VCR Backups

by Adam C. Engst

I'm sure many people have thought of doing disk backups to a VCR tape, particularly the poorer crowd that can't afford all sorts of snazzy backup hardware. I know I thought of doing it several years ago, but gave up because I couldn't find information on how. That was before I knew how to navigate the nets. Well, someone else has realized that a VCR is basically a big, dumb, slow tape drive. The trick is figuring out how to hook your computer to your VCR - those little RCA plugs that connect to your stereo won't cut it.

The net people produced information on a product that allows you to do this. It's called Videotrax from a company called Alpha Micro. Videotrax is a combination of an external SCSI controller and software that provides basic backup features and talks to the controller. It's not terribly expensive, at $499 or $1299 if you want the special Videotrax VCR that does automatic backups as well. Unfortunately, it's not a lot cheaper than the no-name SyQuest drives. Videotrax saves 80 meg on a normal cassette, which is better than a standard SyQuest's 42 meg, but a good backup program like Retrospect or MacTools Backup can come close to 80 meg of original data with file compression.

I've heard that using a VCR to backup computer data is relatively dangerous in that videocassettes and VCRs aren't designed to the exacting specifications that computer equipment must to work at. A single bit of data doesn't make the slightest difference in displaying an image on the TV screen, but it could destroy a file. I had a similar idea about converting a cheap audio CD player into a CD-ROM drive, and was told basically the same thing - a skipped bit in music is nothing, but a skipped bit in your program is fatal. This low level of accuracy might be a reason why we aren't all using the Videotrax, because otherwise it's a good idea subject to a few logistical problems, such as the separate locations of my VCR and computer. Details, mere details.

Alpha Micro -- 800/253-3434 or 800/821-0612 in CA (old #)

Information from:
David Elliott -- [email protected]
John Kratochvil -- moebius@mofh
Ted Morris -- [email protected]
Mark H. Anbinder -- [email protected]
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 21:10
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Do you really need to use VHS now? I mean surely you can just buy a an external HDD, you can get a Maxtor Basic 250gb HDD for £60 in Staples, or even in the bigger Tesco stores and they're fairly reliable - likewise find some online storage or have multiple USB disks.

The time it'd take to transfer to VHS I imagine would be quite long.

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 22:18 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 22:18
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Well the reason i thought of using VHS is bacause i want to use it to record and playback high qaulity audio (24bit) and it can be done live rather than waiting for a whole cassette to run through the writing and loading process. So basically a digital alternative to the expensive reel to reel systems they use in recording studios.

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MSon
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 22:35
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i once saw a used VHS Drive for a PC at Bowlers, (my local computer fair), it was years ago, and they wanted about 20GBP, so it is possable to read data from one on a PC, but no idea about altering the data on one for high end audio, If its simply for transport of high quality audio, then i would think an External HDD or cheaper yet, an SD/MicroSD Adapter to store the files.

PS: Do they still use old reel to reel, i would of thought most would of upgraded to better by now?

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