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Geek Culture / Now I understand why only a few finish games

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Raybrite2
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 12:36
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After spending today, like many others, looking at different options and different programs, not to mention characters, scenery, and even a few game making programs and engines that are off the threads above, I can understand why a lot of folks don't finish a game.
Today I even looked at the Leadwerks forum again. Also I found something called Python because someone had mentioned Blender.
How do you stay focused with one set of programs and how did you settle on them?
I am still new and am getting lost. I do have Dark Game Studio on the way and have downloaded the demos for most of the trial versions.
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David R
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 12:46 Edited at: 19th Jun 2009 12:58
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EDIT2: This is my take on finishing games, not about the tools/languages problem

Personally, I swear by the following two articles/pieces of advice

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Real_Artists_Ship.txt

http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/taming-perfectionism.html

The latter being the most relevant in my case, because I find perfectionism and self-doubt to be the biggest obstacle to getting something done and released. The perfectionism thing can also link back to the tools problem ("Not invented here" syndrome, for example)

Of course, these aren't really "methods" as you ask for, but they are really good pieces of advice

EDIT: The other brilliant piece of advice I've seen (in a book) is from Chris Crawford. In essence, he says don't treat unfinished projects like failures - because it's negative feedback, and won't motivate you to try again. Treat them in the same way an artist does - notes, sketches, drafts before the finished piece/masterpiece. I think that's a brilliant way to look at it, because it's true: very rarely do people leap into an idea or project and get an immediate finished product. They have prototypes, they have unfinished projects prior to it that alter how they approach its development etc.

Overall, treat it as a learning experience, not failure.

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
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Van B
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 13:13
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Agreed completely David - every single project is a learning experience, because what we don't see around here is people taking the easy option. When someone here starts a new project, it tends to be something that they haven't tackled before, or at least contains elements that they are not 100% on. Even if these projects never get completed, the chances are that the untackled areas got started, and that means you've expanded on your skills. I often start a mini-project, and get it to a point where I can comfortably apply it to a game, unfinished but if everything should work, I'm happy to move onto something else.

The main thing though is to decide on a platform and stick to it, the only way to check an engine's worth is to write a game on it, proove to yourself that it can be done, and you will keep doing it. DBPro is actually a very productive language for me, I haven't done as much in any other language, and I write business applications for a living!. I see DBPro as a receptive system that invites you to tackle projects that might be a little ambitious, then it makes you work - and if you put in enough work you will get the results you want.

This might be dismissive or arrogant, but if you want to be making your own games, then besides strong coding skills you really need some sort of art skill as well. If you can code, model and texture and you have DBPro then there's practically nothing stopping you from making cool games.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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Raybrite2
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 13:36
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I think my problem is an overload in the options area and a deficiency in the "How to" area.
I spend a few days on DB Pro and cannot get any more than a "Guess the number" game made.
Still haven't the faintest idea how to get a background and a character on the screen and move anything around.
I go through the tutorials available and they seem to lead me through the variables and all the basic stuff and then they end.
I looked at a good tutorial on 2D for DB Pro as a place to begin and it turned out that it ended right where I am knowledgewise.
I have the big book for DB Pro coming in so I will not give up easily. Just need to focus.
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 13:52
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When you get Dark Game Studio install it all but you really only need to focus on Darkbasic Pro. It's all you need to start programming... the other stuff is very useful but you probably won't use any of it till you're better at programming in Darkbasic. The only thing you want in a drawing program is that it allows you to have multiple layers with multiple alpha levels and can save in .png format... one that can make seamless textures is a plus too. Just about any 3D drawing program will do for models.

I agree with David and Van. Even if you don't finish a game you'll still have the code for it and you can go back to it at any time. You will also remember most of whats in each program. So if you start another one and need something you've already done before you'll remember "Hey that's in my such-n-such program.". In the past what kept me motivated was challenge... doing things that I have never tried before. Once I did the challenging parts of a game the easy stuff was just so boring that I would stop working on the game.

Being solo programmers for so long forced a lot of us to dabble in art, music, and soundfx... not because we wanted to but because if we didn't make the graphics or sounds ourselves we wouldn't have any for our programs. Now it's a bit different with the internet and billions of sprite sheets, mp3s, and wavs. I think we older programmers are the last true Renaissance men and women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath

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Raybrite2
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 14:19
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I think we older programmers are the last true Renaissance men and women.

Do you mean old like in "been programming for a long time" or, "like 69 years old?"
Just curious LOL.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 14:36
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Well said David.

Projects can get unfinished on behalf of unrealistic goals - do what's within your ability and won't take too long. Being economical with what you've got too, you don't have a massive team and the more you put on your plate. the more time it takes and if your progress is slow you might feel unmotivated again. Also procrastination is an ugly demon too. But really I'm only pointing out my own weaknesses for never finishing anything.

It can be difficult to choose and learn the right engine for you, I've been looking around for alternatives to DBP and that can get in the way. Hence I'm just saying to myself, "drop it until you have something to show for it". You've got to just settle with one and learn it.

Also the others are right on the 'failed' project thing is not a failed project, I've got bits and pieces laying around of my miserable failed attempts, but looking back, there's some good code - I was going through my folder the other day and found a great collision system that worked better than my Newton physics attempts, in the same project there's a cool dialogue feature I might take out and put into my current project. The same applies to anything creation, on something I'm writing I have about 5,000 words on discarded ideas saved into a single document.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 14:57
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Projects are best done on long journeys. Two hours a day I spend on the bus, but they're not two hours wasted because I spend them on a netbook coding.

When you've regularly got nothing better to do, that's how you finish projects.

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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 17:22
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I too have a problem sticking with a single project and using a specific set of tools. I'm always getting sidetracked when new engines are announced or updates to old ones, so I have many versions of the same game started with different tools. I think I inherited this issue from my father because he is a part-time inventor, and he's continuously coming up with new ideas before he can complete existing prototypes!

North Korea 2007 Tour Pictures
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Van B
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 17:31
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What a great use for commute time Nex, kinda makes the time spent seem less wasteful and therefor justifiable. Know what I mean? - a lot of people wouldn't want to travel for 2 hours a day, but if the time is well spent then it's a different matter, I might consider that if I have to look for a job anytime soon.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 17:51
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It isn't always productive though. If you need some media making to progress you can't use a mouse or tablet on the bus and if you need some info from the web you're stuffed.

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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 19th Jun 2009 22:13 Edited at: 19th Jun 2009 22:17
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Quote: "This might be dismissive or arrogant, but if you want to be making your own games, then besides strong coding skills you really need some sort of art skill as well. If you can code, model and texture and you have DBPro then there's practically nothing stopping you from making cool games."

Yes. I believe that pretty well. You also need time though. This stuff takes a lot of it.

I've only fully finished one game myself, and have released playable versions of three other games (and made five other playable ones not released). Then however, there are 30-40 games alfas/engines I've made that have naver even been shown to more than three people. Then like most of us here there are 100+ game design documents that have not/will not see the light of day.

I find that the only way to finish a game is to have the determination to do so. I only really believed that the last 20% took 80% of the time until the game I'm currently working on. And then, many of us don't have all that much time to code. So mostly you need a whole lot of determination.

Of course, if you want to finish in a timely manner, you need hella good time management skillz.

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Raybrite2
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 01:09
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I always longed for the day when I could do whatever I wanted.
Now the day has come and gone.
After 5 years, I am still trying to figure out what I wanted to do.
This will actually happen in life.
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 07:24 Edited at: 20th Jun 2009 07:25
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Quote: "Do you mean old like in "been programming for a long time" or, "like 69 years old?"
Just curious LOL."


As in been programming a long time... but I'll probably still be programming when I reach 69.

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MIDN90
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 08:57
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Quote: "As in been programming a long time... but I'll probably still be programming when I reach 69. "


And I'm sure the lot of us will remember when quad cores were the greatest.
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Raybrite2
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 13:10
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I remember in 1982 back in St. Louis when I saw an Apple dealer where I worked. They had these big computers in there and I couldn't figure out what anyone would do with one of those at home. Thought for sure they would die out.
In 1987 I went to Tunisia and they were using a Data Base program and writing eveything out. Then one of the guys from Emerson had an apple. I bought it and used it to write a few courses to teach. Of course I was just using the Word Processor.
Now everyone has at leasat one computers and some of us have many.
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Roxas
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 19:49
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I have found (Hopefully) a determination to focus only in this project and finish it greatly polished. Most of my inspiration comes to this game which i got quite addicted lately. (If you play it, i suggest using gamepad. Gamepad > Keyboard)

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Dared1111
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Posted: 21st Jun 2009 00:07 Edited at: 21st Jun 2009 00:08
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Dont worry Raybrite, I'm now 6/7 years with no game completions. Mainly due to the fact most were realistic and became not so or that for the first 4 years I relied on other inspirations such as films.

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Raybrite2
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Posted: 21st Jun 2009 01:37
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Let's see I woould be 75 then. Something to look forward to.
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 21st Jun 2009 15:08
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Good programmers learn by having an idea and then putting it to the test. Don't treat your inspiration as a bad thing.
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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Jun 2009 16:38
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@David R

I really liked that perfectionism article. I can relate to it. I particularly like the notion of incorporating imperfection into the design. I think I've started doing that in recent projects, amd I think that helps me justify it more.

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Raybrite2
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2009 01:36
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Dared1111
I did make a game with game makers (if I can say that here). It looked terrible because I drew the sprites and everything. Even drew the background.
I wanted to make one that I did completely.
It was a 2D that had them figure out the answer to a math problem (numbers 0-5 addition), then they would rescue the Princess. Aimed at preschoolers. Never did publish it.
Now I have the same project here.
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