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DarkBASIC Discussion / DarkPro's - What do you think?

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Digger412
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 02:14 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 02:19
@Latch - Yes, I have used MediaFire before. As for the security of it, I'm not extremely sure. By default, all users have a custom url (ex: mediafire.com/latch). You can disable that though, so there's no direct linking, but I don't know if someone could still get to your 'uploaded files' page. I'd suggest that ya'll make a big conglomerate account that every one of you has access to, make the files/folders private, then upload and share within your group. Only the person/people logged into the account could see the files then. As for the failing, not so far. I've had a couple of files up for months now, I just tried to re-download them and they still work. It may even hold them up there indefinitely..(*checks again in 3009* yep, they're still there, Latch!) As for the shotgun, I'll give it a whack, but I've never worked on guns before.
Dark Dragon
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 05:29 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 05:31
Quote: "We need to get those not so easy things under way like paths and ai and the gernal game engine. And all those things are supposedly being worked on. "


Wow.

Ahem. Well I offically make my return! Lemme know what and when. I'll be abel to Elp ONE THOUNSAND Purrsent now dat my comps back up

As fer AI, Do we need "bots"? I've read up on making bots for Fps's; even tho i havent attempt one, i'd have a good idea of how the bot code/script could be written.

(\__/) HHAHAHAHAHAH!
(O.o ) / WORLD DOMINATION!!!!!!!!!!
(> < )
Digger412
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 05:43 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 07:24
@Latch - I hope to have the model finished tonight (~60-70% finished atm), I've gotten the barrels and grip done, smoothing out the stock, all I have to finish is around the trigger and the very front of the stock...wonder how hard the trigger will be?

EDIT: Crap, I think that 3DC is about to crash...darnit! Why didn't I SAVE?! Please don't crash, please don't crash, please don't crash!

EDIT2: Whew, safe!

EDIT3: Okay, since I can't seem to post the images inside this post, I attached a .zip with the four pics. I know that there are a couple of places where the verts don't meet up, but I'm not finished with it yet, so they're okay for now. It's bedtime for me, so I'll try and work on this some more tomorrow. This is my first ever gun, and the most progress I've made on a model so far lol. Hope it's good enough!

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Latch
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 12:12 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 12:26
@Digger412
From the pictures, that gun looks pretty darn good! This is your first attempt? Impressive. Just a few notes: You mentioned you are smoothing out the stock. When you are smoothing out the stock, try and avoid too much subsurfacing or subdividing if those are the methods you are using. Often, a smoothing illusion can be created by using vertex normals instead of face normals. This will help keep the polygon count low, but make faces or edges blend or disappear with lighting.

For example, the two cones in the following code snippet use different normals. The one on the left uses face normals, the one on the right uses vertex normals. Notice how the lighting seems to smooth the edges of the cone on the right. But, you can see all of the edges and faces of the cone on the left and it doesn't appear as a smooth.



I did this with code and memblocks, but there are usually options in 3d modeling programs. Usually it's called smoothing or it may specifically be a control as to how the normals are calculated.

I think in 3D canvas it may be the Soften control in the Object Operations toolbar.

Enjoy your day.
TheComet
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 14:37
Very nice shotgun Digger!

@Latch

A little off-topic, but how come you always set your screen resolution to 800*600 and not something bigger or smaller? Do you have a small screen at home? Just wondering, no offense...

TheComet


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Digger412
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 19:45
@Comet - Thanks!

@Latch - Yes, I did use some subdividing/subsurfacing on the bottom vertices. 3DC does have a Soften operation, as well as a Smooth operation, but both of them create noticeable seems in the stock. I made it from a cylinder primitive, and I'm wondering why it's creating seems. I may try to remodel the stock, because I'm not really satisfied with it >.<

Also, I ran your code in Dbc and DbPro, and I ran into a snag at line 29, something about the memblock position being out of range. It may be on my end, because I've never worked with memblocks or normals before.
Latch
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 20:20
@TheComet
Quote: "A little off-topic, but how come you always set your screen resolution to 800*600 and not something bigger or smaller? Do you have a small screen at home? Just wondering, no offense... "

Why would I be offended? That resolution is perfect for me for performance and I don't see enough of a difference in quality to trade off on performance by increasing the resolution. I keep my desk top at that so the screen is easy for me to read too. Back to DBC, if doing any screen capture operations, time and performance acan be destroyed with higher resolutions than 640x480 if enough full screen images or bitmaps are used or maintained. 800x600 is at a point where full screen captures aren't too bad on DBC. Also, I use a quick key (ctrl+j in darkedit) where a preset header is automatically added to my DBC code and it's set at 800,600,32 so I rarely think about typing it or changing it.

@Digger412
Quote: "Also, I ran your code in Dbc and DbPro, and I ran into a snag at line 29, something about the memblock position being out of range. It may be on my end, because I've never worked with memblocks or normals before."

In DBC I don't know why you are having problems with the code. I tried it switching multiple primatives and it still works. In DBPro, I think the mesh in a memblock is stored a little differently than in DBC and therefore could cause you some trouble.

The code was just to show you visually the difference, it wasn't meant for you to adapt or apply to your model (unless you really want to!) I'll attack a screeny of the difference I was talking about between the two cones that have the same vertex and face count but different normals.

Enjoy your day.

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Digger412
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 20:42
@Latch - Hmm, okay. Maybe people will be so busy shooting aliens that they wont have time to admire the shotgun lol. I've attached my shotgun model and the picture that I went by, if anyone could refine it, that would be great. I wasn't able to do the trigger, it was a little too complex for me, the hammer part, and it needs some work between the barrels and the stock, I couldn't get it to look right..I wonder how many modeling rules I broke...

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TheComet
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 21:07 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 21:09
Ah, so that's why. I always set my screen res to 1280*800*32, I feel I need the maximum resolution to enjoy what I am creating.

Quote: "Why would I be offended?"


You never know how people understand your posts... It could be that I indirectly am trying to tell you that your screen is a piece of bull, and you may be a computer freak and feel offended by that and react in a bad way. Of course I'm not saying that, but I have had people misinterpret my posts before. Now back On-topic!

I'm getting a new computer in a week or two, so I will be able to fully join back into this team by then.

TheComet


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Digger412
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 21:12 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 21:13
@Comet - Sorry if I'm being nosy, but what're the specs? I'm a bit of a computer freak =P

EDIT: Oh, wait, I thought you meant that one was being delivered. Disregard that if you haven't bought it yet >.<
Latch
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 21:21 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 21:35
That's excellent Digger412! Looks very good. Is it possible to modify the stock? It looks like that alone is over 1000 polygons.

@TheComet
I don't even know what the max resolution on this thing is, let me check:

2048x1536 . Wow. I'm using a pretty low resolution on DBC relatively.

Enjoy your day.
TheComet
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 22:55 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 22:56
I'm not sure which computer you are talking about, I'll just post all specs:

The specs for my laptop were (it broke by being soaked by rain, you may have read that in Geek Culture) 512MB DDR2 SDRAM, 1.6GHz processor, 60GB Harddisk, 32bit BUS, and a radeon graphics card. The specs for my computer that lost the power supply were 512MB RAM, 2.66GHz processor, 300GB Harddisk, 32bit BUS, and a nVidia graphics card.

And the computer I'm going to buy:

4GB RAM (expandable to 16GB), Quad core 2.66GHz processor, 2TB Harddisk, 64bit BUS, the newest nVidia graphics card available (Can't remember those darn graphics cards...) and a 5.1 Surround sound card. I've also got a DVD/CD writer at 32x (My old one was something like 4x).

I really need a larger screen...

EDIT : Wow, your screen resolution is huge! Mine's only 1024*768 (laptop 1280*800)... How slow does DBC run at full resolution?

TheComet


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Digger412
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 22:57 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 22:58
@Latch - Umm, I think so. Yes, it's around 1200 >.<. The problem was getting the curve on the bottom after fitting the cylinder primitive to the stock shape. I had to drag some vertices down, and it resulted in a sharp point at the bottom. I split the verts down there then moved them a bit to smooth it out, but it still left a lot. That's why I was wanting to remake it. Anyways, I have to go over to my grandma's and pressure wash her house, I'll try to work on it some more later tonight.

@Comet - Wow, that'll be quite a computer!
TheComet
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Posted: 20th Sep 2009 15:53 Edited at: 20th Sep 2009 15:55
Quote: "Wow, that'll be quite a computer! "


Yeah... Which brings me to something else that criticizes Vista: Why on earth do I need half a super computer to process a few words? We have ms word at work and are learning how to use it, and it runs really slowly, even with the high specs of the computers at work. Plus it's really hard to use, and all of the functions are really stupidly organized, as if an ape pressed some random buttons and all of the functions scattered to random positions. I HATE ms word...

@Digger

My laptop starts to get slow with +1000 polygons. Considering the level, it is going to have about +400 poly's, and each enemy about 60. I don't think we are going to have more than 10 enemies on screen at a time, which is 600 polygons. Special effects are going to take up some more. If we code our own LOD functions, we could bring the level down to 100 polygons on screen at any time. So try to keep the gun down at 80 polygons.

I know that most people that are going to play this will have fast computers, but we need to focus on speed and push DBC to it's limits so slow computers can play this at an enjoyable speed. Also try making the faces one sided, so the faces that are behind other faces are not drawn.

@all

I think it would be a good idea to add a sync-skipping function. I have one of them lying around, but you'll have to wait until next week. The function keeps the loop constant at 60 loops per second. If one loop takes too long, it will skip the synchronization of the screen and add the overlapping time to the next loop to keep it at a certain speed.

TheComet


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Digger412
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Posted: 20th Sep 2009 18:08 Edited at: 20th Sep 2009 19:47
@Comet - Okay, I'll try to get it down to 80. I could take the bevel off of the barrels, but I can only get them to about 18 polys each...Maybe if I shaved the Lat/Lon off? That'd result in less faces..Okay, barrels take up 9 each, they're heptagonal now, but that's not a shape that the eye easily recognizes =P. I'm working on the stock, I'm building it vertex by vertex, so I hope that it has fewer than 1200 polys..

As for the one sided thing, I think that by default they're one sided, because I can go inside of the barrels and I don't see the faces, kinda like if your in the middle of a DB object.
TheComet
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Posted: 20th Sep 2009 20:10
Well, 80 is a bit extreme, but don't go over 200. Keep it up though, I like your work.

TheComet


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Latch
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Posted: 20th Sep 2009 21:31
Quote: "I know that most people that are going to play this will have fast computers, but we need to focus on speed and push DBC to it's limits so slow computers can play this at an enjoyable speed. Also try making the faces one sided, so the faces that are behind other faces are not drawn."

Agreed. but:

Quote: "My laptop starts to get slow with +1000 polygons. "

That seems a bit low. The average polygons I'm thinking per enemy and per humanoid type character is around 2000 or 3000. And I'm thinking a max of 20 enemies at a time. A terrain at 40x40 tiles is 3200 polygons. Are yoiu saying you couldn't even have a terrain of 40x40 tiles? For the shot gun, 200 polygons is possible, but I had widdled just the stock down to about 156 while maintaining it's detail. 200 polygons for the whole gun might be a bit low for detail but could be pulled off my a clever artist. It's possible with a weapon, but I dunno about characters.

If each limb was only 100 polygons:
2x upper arm = 200
2x lower arm = 200
2x hand = 200
1x head = 100
1x chest = 100
1x hips = 100
2x upper leg = 200
2x lower leg = 200
2x feet = 200
1x neck = 100

total = 1500 polygons. Even at half of that, your laptop is going to start to be challenged. Something deosn't seem quite right. You should be able to sail by without a bump at 10,000 polygons, if you have more than 733 mhz processor. I use a single core 1.5 ghz processor and I can struggle by with 130,000 polygons at 24 FPS. Maybe it's the screen resolution.

The team is going to have to establish some bench marks so we can keep on page with what is acceptable performance vs detail and establish some standards.

@Digger412
The stock of the gun is the real poly eater. There is a method that may help. What I did to get an up and functioning stock without too much effort was to use a spline. A spline is a path, or a series of points one connected to the next. I used Anim8or and outlined the side view of the stock from the picture you supplied. After outlining it, I extruded it so it became a solid 3d object. The results were, I got the shape of the stock with very few polygons. A little tweaking of the vertices can shape it up a little bit to round out a couple of the edges. I'll attack a screeny of the first pass. This is a reault of just drawing the outline and extruding it. I didn't do any vertex adjustments. This is just to give you a couple of ideas of perhaps another approach. The polygon count for this is 156 - could still be lower.

Enjoy your day.

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TheComet
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Posted: 20th Sep 2009 22:29 Edited at: 20th Sep 2009 22:36
40*40 runs at 49 fps on my laptop with sync rate set to 0. Remember that if you set the character detail level to lets say a maximum of 400 polygons, only 200 will be drawn at a time. So you can actually make double the polygons and only half will be drawn, which would be a maximum of 2000 polygons in game.

A matrix is double sided, so a 40*40 matrix would have 6400 polygons, and if I remember correctly it ran at 34 fps.

Don't you think 1500 polygons for a player is too much? You can squeeze the chest down to 4*4=16 polygons, couldn't you? And I'm sure you can reduce a lot on the player. I'm not criticizing your work at all, just trying to be reasonable.

You may have seen TombStone on the WIP board. The level there had a bit more than 2000 polygons. The only way I could maintain an appropriate fps level is with my sync skipper function and by hiding objects not in view or behind other objects.

Why do we need an fps of 60? Why not make it 30? We could add triple the amount, maybe even quadruple the amount of polygons = 8000.

If things are limited, you can always to the Mario Kart 64 trick. Have you ever played Mario Kart on the Nintendo 64? All of the players there use 2 polygons and a bit of processing to calculate the angle of the images printed on them. All of the players and items are plain objects with images textured onto them. We could do that with the players, and even add boned animation during the rendering of them. Just a thought.

TheComet


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Digger412
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Posted: 21st Sep 2009 00:54 Edited at: 21st Sep 2009 02:08
@Comet - Thanks, 200 will be much easier to work with now.

@Latch - I haven't used splines, but I may try that if I decide to reject this shotgun too. Right now, the stock is about 400 polygons (1/3 of my previous, though!), but I haven't reduced the faces/points yet. I'll post it soon if I get it done in the next couple of hours, otherwise I'll post more screenies a little later.

EDIT: Okay, got the stock down to about 150 polys (YAY!), All I have to do is the grip and sights, then that should be it..I'll post it in a few moments.

EDIT2: Okay, 3DC crashed and I lost the good 150 poly stock, tried to redo it but I couldn't...it's not up to my par, I may just go with the splines

EDIT3: Okay, I got a great spline stock, but I'm having trouble rounding it..

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Latch
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Posted: 21st Sep 2009 02:22
Quote: "A matrix is double sided, so a 40*40 matrix would have 6400 polygons"

Matrices aren't double sided. They don't use culling however so you can see the top and the bottom, so the polycount for a 40x40 would still be 3200:



Quote: "Don't you think 1500 polygons for a player is too much? You can squeeze the chest down to 4*4=16 polygons, couldn't you? And I'm sure you can reduce a lot on the player. I'm not criticizing your work at all, just trying to be reasonable."


I thought 1500 was low poly for an organic! Without everything looking like blocks, I don't see how it could be done for much less than 1000. Even looking at the alien mutant from Dark Matter has 860 polygons - and that looks decent to blocky.

Quote: "I'm not criticizing your work at all, just trying to be reasonable."

I don't feel criticized at all. It would be great if this could look good with extremely low polygon counts. A lot can be made up for with textures - if the artist is good enough. I'm not good enough. I'm no artist!

I think there may be more of an issue with the performance of your computer than the polygon count, no offense (which we want to keep low but that's relative). Lets say we just used cubes for all of the limbs of a character. That's 12 polygons per limb. Maybe 16 limbs. That would be 192 polygons. With 10 monsters running around, not even including the house or the grounds, that's 1920 polygons, and that would already be starting to stress your computer. And I can't imagine a character made out of cubes looking organic.

Take a look at polycounts to get a general idea of some other games.

At any rate, we'll have to bench mark performance of the teams computers with various resolutions and objects in a scene. From there we can make some determinations on the limits of what can or can't be included.

Enjoy your day.
Digger412
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Posted: 21st Sep 2009 04:26
@Latch - Okay, looking at those numbers, here's a higher-quality model, 608 polys. I can load up about 200 of these and have nearly 60 fps constant, with all of them in view. I really like this one, it's my favorite and best so far.

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Latch
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2009 03:13
@All
I'll be out of this project for a while. Got company for the next couple of weeks. You are free of my tyranny!

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2009 03:50
Back from vacation. I think it was good to give my mind a break from computers for a week but I'm looking forward to getting back in the swing of things!

@Latch
Enjoy you company.

Quote: "Here's an update of what I've been working on:
1. I've started expanding and reformatting the Design Document. When No time to Code gets back I'll have him/her take a look at that"


If you made any updates could you post or email to me before you go off-line?

@Digger412
The shotgun looks good. Are we going to need two models for each weapon? What I mean is one for floating/laying around in the environment and one locked on screen when in use? maybe with the player's hand attached when using?
Digger412
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2009 03:58
@NTTC - I don't know, maybe that could be the floating/laying one, and someone else could model the hand? I haven't tried organic modeling, I'm ecstatic that the shotgun even turned out well. Someone will need to texture it, though, I think. I haven't had any practice UV Wrapping or anything like that. All I know is that pretty much U=X and V=Y, but I don't know how it pertains to anything! I'll probably do some research tonight. I have Texture Maker, but I'm not extremely proficient at using it yet...now's as good a time as any!

@Latch - Have fun, and it's not tyranny....more like..harsh constructive rule!
Latch
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2009 18:21
Before I escape:

@NTTC
The document is about half complete. It's formatted quite a bit differently and in doing so, I haven't been able to included all of the information contained in your original document yet. If I sneak a few minutes here and there I may pick at it over the next few weeks. But in the interim, you can still maintain your document the way you are. The only new information is a much more detailed breakdown of information, goals, scope, and methods.

@Digger412
Quote: "here's a higher-quality model, 608 polys"

Try and get it down to about half that polycount if you can. Even less if possible. As far as counts in the range of 1000, I was thinking more about organic things, like people or creatures. Weapons, can have much lower polycounts and with a little shading and texturing can look pretty good.

@NTTC
Quote: "Are we going to need two models for each weapon?"

In my mind I'm projecting forward to multiplayer and that means creating a character player that holds a weapon, and the camera is placed at the character's view point. The approach can be to duplicate a weapon every time a player picks it up, and when it is discarded that weapon gets deleted. Or have only 1 weapon of a type in the game, and once the player picks that up, they hold it until they discard it. Once discarded it's back in the pool of weapons. Or to have player models holding every type of weapon and switch out the whole player model whenever they choose a new weapon.

Enjoy your day.
Digger412
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2009 05:12
@Latch - I'll try, but if I use the "reduce" operation, it usually distorts it >.<
No Time To Code
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 03:27
I know we had a couple of team members have to bow out and Latch is out for awhile but I hate to lose momentum on this project. Are far as I can tell, this is the team status:

Latch - Offline for two weeks
The Comet - Out with PC problems
Caleb1994 - Out
RTR - Waypoint editor
Obses87 - Pathfinding
BrickBreak - Pathfinding
Digger - Shotgun model
Me - Design document, help with pathfinding
Dark Dragon - You expressed an interest in AI...

I think a 'roll call' is in order to see where the remaining members stand with what they were working on.
Latch
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 21:33
@No Time to Code
You can probably scratch Brick Break from the list for now as his participation on the forums has been limited.

Interesting. A week and no one has provided any updates - even as to their status.

Well, here is something to look at, at least: the house on land that I was going to post last week. It's essentially a placeholder so there's something to work with in terms of path finding, moving, getting an idea for dimensions and distance relationships, etc. The house is no where near finished. Use the up and down arrows keys to move and use the mouse to steer.

The terrain is an object created using a heightmap in DBC. The texturing was also created in DBC using the heightmap and texture blending. To smooth the normals of the terrain and to line up the texture properly, I used anim8or. The ground height for the camera uses native DBC collision and a method I describe in my Get Ground Height from object post that's floating around in the forums somewhere. There's no collision on the house so you can walk through the walls. The terrain is 80x80 so it's pretty heavy on the poly count. I did that mainly to get an idea on how taxing 12800 polygons would be. On my system, it runs at about 105 fps with a sync rate of 0 @ 800x600x32.

With a bit depth of 16, the fps go up about 30 and there is no noticible difference in detail. All in all, at 800x600x16 I could easily double that polycount on my computer and cruise along at a steady 60 fps.

Enjoy your day.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Oct 2009 02:53
I am still here, I've been getting very side-tracked and lazy lately, I've only written the bare bones of the pathfinding, not enough for a working demonstration. I did that about two weeks ago and haven't coded since! and time really isnt an excuse for me at the moment, I have plenty of it.
I think this is the part that makes or breaks a project, after the dust has settled do we have the ability to plod along keeping the project going?
I might go do some plodding now actually...

TGC Forum - converting error messages into sarcasm since 2002.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 1st Oct 2009 04:53
Quote: "You can probably scratch Brick Break from the list for now as his participation on the forums has been limited."

Based on an email I got from him and some of his post, I can't say I'm surprised.

Nice model Latch. I think having something to look at and 'play' with will be helpful in spurring this project along. I copied that 60fps cap lock function to use when I get a real computer. Right now I get 60fps with sync at 0 (40fps with sync at 60). No change when I set display to 800x600x16. Did I mention I need a real computer, something from the last decade would be nice

With Brick out, I'll be glad to try to help with pathfinding. I was going to try to modify my A* function. Right now it works for one enemy to a stationary goal. Would have to modify for multiple enemies to a moving target. But then I was thinking, do we really need an involved pathfinding routine? Seems like if we are using waypoints to move the creatures along predetermined routes, we could use some kind of line of sight so if the creature 'sees' the player (i.e. no objects in between the two) it would just move in a straight line toward it. The only problems I see with this approach is:

1. If the creature and player are on different floors
2. Objects that would not block 'sight' but would block movement (low bushes or gate)

If we are going to have the creatures track the player based on sound, smell, radar, etc., then we will need some pathfinding.
Latch
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Posted: 1st Oct 2009 10:07
@No Time to Code
Quote: "I copied that 60fps cap lock function to use when I get a real computer"

Make sure you have a setup.ini file in the home directory where DB.exe lives and that blitflipmode=1 is set when you use the 60 fps lock break function.

Quote: "But then I was thinking, do we really need an involved pathfinding routine? "

We may not depending on the approach. Unfortunately it was an assigned and accepted task to try out what might be feasible and no actual work has been done on it except for the code example you submitted.

Quote: "Seems like if we are using waypoints to move the creatures along predetermined routes, we could use some kind of line of sight so if the creature 'sees' the player (i.e. no objects in between the two) it would just move in a straight line toward it. The only problems I see with this approach is:

1. If the creature and player are on different floors
2. Objects that would not block 'sight' but would block movement (low bushes or gate)"


Since there isn't much strategy beyond survival, the monsters will always move towards the player when they can (whether seeing it or not). They try to get in the house - which is a control in and of itself (predetermined paths), then they track to the player (inside or outside). The monster doesn't have to see the player to track to it.

In the case of different floors, the check starts with:
Is the player in the house?
then
Is the player at a certain height (the 2nd floor or on the stairs a certain distance)?

If the conditions are true, the monsters first head for the stairs then try to go up or down, then track to the player.

The actual tracking method depends. Is path finding necessary? We'd have to run tests on differnt methods to see which is the most efficient processing wise and also behavior wise for the creatures.

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 1st Oct 2009 18:09
I'll try to modify my A* code to work on your object. My original code is set up for a square grid of nodes on each tile of the matrix. The nodes are set as either passable or impassable. It then plots a path from start to goal. The challenge to modify for this project will be:

1. Place nodes on your house model (which is not simply based on a grid of squares). What I am going to try is to lay down a grid of equally spaced plains/nodes (100x100 for starters). If a plain is in collision with the model it will be set as impassable. Then save this data as an array.

2. Once it plots a path, it will have to replot each time the player moves.

3. It will have to work for multiple enemies simultaneously.

I'll give it a shot. Remember, I'm a Dark noob/intermediate so if I do manage to get some working code it may not be the most efficient processing wise. I'm sure you and some of the more experienced members will have some ideas on using timers and running the pathifinding code in different game cycles.

@OBese87
If you want to try this as well or have ideas for a different method let me know.
Latch
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Posted: 1st Oct 2009 19:35
@No Time
If you look at the floor of the house, it is actually a grid. Using that may help. Or you could use

Get Obejct Size X()
Get Obejct Size Z()

to get the world dimensions of the house and divide that by some number to create your virtual grid. For example, if the sizes came out to be 480 x 500 and you divided each by say 10, then you would have a 48 by 50 square grid. Each wall should land cleanly somewhere on a grid this size.

And perhaps wait a bit to see what the results of roll call are so you aren't working on a community project alone.

Enjoy your day.
Digger412
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2009 00:15
I'm still here, I've been attempting to reduce the poly's on the shotgun a bit. I've been busy lately (school, Spanish 1 at college, band practice, football games, working). I've had bits and pieces of time here and there, but when I try to reduce, it always comes out odd, with either little tears in the model, or a side looks wrong, or I can't seem to weld the vertices the same on each side..I'd be willing to attempt something else, though. I have DBPro and the physics+ai plugin, so idk how much help I can be coding. I'd consider myself at an amateur level, though.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2009 01:35
Interesting thread! Wish I had time to help out.

TheComet
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2009 01:44
Hey everyone!

I got my new computer!!! This baby runs as smooth as a camels ass, everything is really fast at loading and running, and I am overall happy with it. I had to install ubuntu on the second hard drive to access the internet, because windows is missing drivers for my internet card and it wants me to download the drivers, but how can I access the internet for drivers without the drivers for the internet card? Stupid paradoxes...

OK, down to business.

About the barn level, erm, lol, well it is... *cough* it looks, I mean, wow, hmm... It's the worst random bunch of vertices I have ever seen. So I think I am going to trash it and start a new level... I love that sound when you press the delete button and the file goes into the trash can... A big "whooomp! CRASH!!!!", lol I always have to laugh at that when I know I deleted crap.

The barn looked more like a modern house than a barn, and lets not talk about the haystacks. I think the main problem is that I started with the landscape and then did the house... It should be the other way around.

So, now that I am back, I am going to make a very good looking barn level for this project in less than 3 days. I hope I can keep this deadline, since I usually screw them up...

@ Latch

Oooh, I don't like the sound of "native DBC commands for collision". We are going to use sparky's, aren't we?

On the positive side, nice little level you composed there, the camera may be a bit high off the ground, unless our main character is a giant. I think it was good of you to make this, since it is a central focus point of our project for now, so we have something to work on.



A little off topic. I went ahead and downloaded all of these demos here:

http://darkbasic.thegamecreators.com/?m=showcase&i=4

If you are currently a bit lazy like obese(of course, no offence ), I advise you download them and watch them. I remember asking the question "how do I sync the music with my game?". No one seemed to know. The knowledge for that has been lost since around 2005, I think. Two of those demos show it is possible with the bass.dll. I have no idea how to use it, but I'm going to figure it out. It may be of use to our game...

I have seen realtime lighting effects done in DBC, and it runs really smoothly.

A lot of art has been lost, and I plan to dig it up again for the remaining DBC users if possible.

TheComet


Make the paths of your enemies easier with WaypointPro!
Latch
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2009 04:05
Alright!

Looks like TheComet's back with a brand new functioning computer, Digger412 is lurking in the shadows, Obese87 implies that he's still participating, and No Time to Code seems to be full throttle. Robert The Robot seems to finish what he starts so he'll probably reappear when he has something more to contribute.

With that, I shall bow out gracefully from this project. This thread is TheComet's baby and I jumped in to take the lead to get the motivation going and get something off the ground. You guys should have a basic plan and theme and should be able to move forward. I'll keep watching the progress from afar.

Enjoy your day.
Irojo
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 01:44
I hear the sobs of everybody who thought Latch was participating having their dreams crushed.




Time is money. I just ripped you off.
Dark Dragon
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 02:32
Quote: "Dark Dragon - You expressed an interest in AI..."


yup.

Quote: "I hear the sobs of everybody who thought Latch was participating having their dreams crushed."

my = .....

(\__/) HHAHAHAHAHAH!
(O.o ) / WORLD DOMINATION!!!!!!!!!!
(> < )
No Time To Code
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 02:51
Quote: "I hear the sobs of everybody who thought Latch was participating having their dreams crushed."


I must say I'm a bit disappointed, I was hoping to learn at the feet of the mighty Latch.

@Dark Dragon
Do you want to help Obese87 and I with pathfinding or tackle some other element of AI?
Latch
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 10:19
Life is throwing a couple of curve balls my way that I have to deal with so I cannot maintain a committment to the project right now.

If everyone stays focused and deals with specific steps, one at a time, you should progress. New and lots of ideas are great but they can scatter focus from the tasks at hand and nothing will end up done. So stick to a rigid plan.

Enjoy your day.
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 13:55
@Latch
Ah, it's a shame you won't be with us all the way! Still, do glance back at the project if you get the chance

@All
Well, firstly my apologies for not posting back sooner but I've only just gotten over a cold and I haven't bee programming at all this last week.

The waypoint editor is still in progress, I think I know exactly what to do and writing the code should be a technical formality (famous last words...). Could I just check a couple of things about the arrays I'll be using:

PathXZ#(n, 1) = the X/Z coords of each waypoint
PathLink(n) = stores the next waypoint an enemy is to walk to from a given point
PathObjects(n,2): 0 = the ID of the entity object, 1 = Target waypoint, 2 = true/false, is the object walking along a pathway at this point


Quote: "Oooh, I don't like the sound of "native DBC commands for collision". We are going to use sparky's, aren't we?"

I don't see why we'd need to, for the most part we can just compare the X and Z coords of each object at large distances, use dear old Pythagoras for near locations and DBC collision if we need the object to use sliding collision!

Quote: "I have seen realtime lighting effects done in DBC, and it runs really smoothly."

Actually, when it comes to lights - don't believe what the help files say when they tell you that you can only create up to 7 lights. You can have as many as you want, it's just that some graphics cards really slow down when you get 7 in the screen at once. Just turn them on or off as needed based on the players position.

@Digger412
Quote: "I'm still here, I've been attempting to reduce the poly's on the shotgun a bit. I've been busy lately (school, Spanish 1 at college, band practice, football games, working). I've had bits and pieces of time here and there, but when I try to reduce, it always comes out odd, with either little tears in the model, or a side looks wrong, or I can't seem to weld the vertices the same on each side.."

Haven't had a chance to look at the shotgun model yet, but have you considered just modelling one half of it and then building a mirror? If you split it down the gun barrel, get one half looking perfect and the mirror that half to create the second barrel, it will always look perfect on both sides. Just a thought...

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
Digger412
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 18:05
@Robert - that's what I did, the problem is that when I did mirror it, the other half was included in the original object, so I can't remove it and work on it some more...
Libervurto
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 02:58
Hi guys,
I'm still very much part of this, after beating myself up about not getting anything done on this I finally took a few days off and now I feel like coding again! Flogging a dead horse really is a bad idea you know.
Today I've just been doing some little programs of my own that sparked my interest. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to get back on with the pathfinding.

TGC Forum - converting error messages into sarcasm since 2002.
Latch
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 03:40 Edited at: 8th Oct 2009 03:50
Things in the real world have settled down a little bit sooner than I expected. I will continue to help with this as time permits. Let's not let the project die.

@No Time to Code
Continue working on the pathfinding. Hopefully Obese87 will work with you, if not, just keep going. He'll catch up when he has time. For the house I attached a few posts ago, I'll attach here a grid with the downstairs floor plan. The areas marked in yellow are doorways that can be pasted through. The dark gray open areas are all passable. The black lines (except where yellow in between) are walls. The goal would be to adapt your pathfinding aglorithm to be able to navigate between any two points on the grid while moving around walls and moving through doors. Ideally, we would end up with a function that could be adjusted to any floor plan just by using the grid squares. Do you think you would be able to tackle this?

The line of sight thing is stil a possibility, but let's square away the pathfinding so we can check it off the list as a tested method that will work or won't work for our needs. At the very least, you'll have a function that can be used for any similar situation, and/or it could be modified into a DLL for any number of other projects.

Quote: "Quote: "Oooh, I don't like the sound of "native DBC commands for collision". We are going to use sparky's, aren't we?"
I don't see why we'd need to, for the most part we can just compare the X and Z coords of each object at large distances, use dear old Pythagoras for near locations and DBC collision if we need the object to use sliding collision!"

The use of the DBC native collision commands is taken out of context here. I used the native collision to get the ground height of the terrain model I posted. As far as the collisions between moving or static objects, it makes sense to use distance checks, but colliding with walls inside of the house (particularly the player) is going to require something besides distance checks for the detail and intracacy of the environment. This would be one area where collision may need to be implemented, and I don't see a problem with native DBC commands.

I can see sparky's being used for shooting weapons, but I would still like to see this project programmed with as much native DBC as possible and use outside means (besides media) only when we can't get the necessary or passable results using DBC code.

@Robert The Robot
Quote: "The waypoint editor is still in progress, I think I know exactly what to do and writing the code should be a technical formality (famous last words...). Could I just check a couple of things about the arrays I'll be using:

PathXZ#(n, 1) = the X/Z coords of each waypoint
PathLink(n) = stores the next waypoint an enemy is to walk to from a given point
PathObjects(n,2): 0 = the ID of the entity object, 1 = Target waypoint, 2 = true/false, is the object walking along a pathway at this point"

you may be able to approach it with fewer arrays though I think the result is the same:



Enjoy your day.

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No Time To Code
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 04:52
I haven't started on the pathfinding because it seemed like the thread was dying off. It's good to have Latch and OBese87 back in the game!

Quote: "Do you think you would be able to tackle this?"

Either I can use your grid or try my original idea of laying down a grid of object (plains) on your model. Whichever ones are in collision with the house would be impassible (=0) else passible (=1) then save this to an array. That will be the first step then I need to work on pathfinding to a moving target with multiple enemies. I'll start working on it.
Latch
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 06:38
@Not Time to Code
Quote: "Either I can use your grid or try my original idea of laying down a grid of object (plains) on your model."

The object plains sounds like a pretty good idea. A grid square might have to be in a resolution that is the width of a single wall unit (10 3d units).

Let me know how that goes. If you wanted to use the floor plan, it could be adjusted and resized so the walls are a solid color and an array could be pulled by using the colors where each pixel would be a grid square. Any pixel of a certain color would be deemed unpassable.

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 07:17
Quote: "Any pixel of a certain color would be deemed unpassable."


If the walls were a grid square wide that would work but I'll try the other way first. If it works it may allow for more flexability in designing the model.

I'm just finishing up a game for my daughter so I'll start working on this task tomorrow.
TheComet
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 16:39
I'm glad you are back again, Latch!

Alright, I couldn't work on anything on my birthday celebration (Saturday, Sunday), and on Monday and Tuesday we went to an amusement park. I got around to starting the barn, and I thought I would post some screen shots to show I'm really doing something. Here is the barn from the outside:



And here we have an image with description of the inside:



I have hidden beams and other bits and pieces from the ceiling so you can see the fighting area more clearly. What do you think?


Now, what exactly is the story with the other shed? I was thinking we could have an endless stack of wood on the first floor up the stairs, and you have to go up and get the wood to board up the cracks. Are we still making the shed?

Is there a purpose of going outside during battle? Or can I totally leave away every object outside and just make a rough landscape you can see through the cracks, and make it so the player can not leave the barn?

So, that's pretty much what I've done until now.

TheComet


Make the paths of your enemies easier with WaypointPro!
Libervurto
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:53 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 02:02
@Comet
looks good, have you made pieces to fit in those holes for the first time the swarm breaks through? It would make for a pretty cool moment! Maybe you could make more holes than are used so the game would be slightly different every time?
I found a really nice barn interior link
I really like those wonky beams

Quote: "Now, what exactly is the story with the other shed?..."

I thought the shed was where the wood is kept.

What does everyone think about having an axe buried in a wooden stump in the wood shed, you could pick it up and use it as a weapon but the game wouldn't tell you to get it so it would give the player a sense of freedom.
If we have multiple weapons I think they should all be "hidden" in this way.

I was thinking about how this would work as a single player game. There would need to be a break between rounds to rebuild the blockades etc. Maybe the swarm are creatures that hide when it rains?

TGC Forum - converting error messages into sarcasm since 2002.

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