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Dark GDK .NET / Coming to DarkGDK and DarkGDK.NET fresh...

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dknowles
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Posted: 7th Aug 2009 20:26
This is my first attempt at posting a new thread, so forgive me if I mess up the forum organization.

Having been doing games (and non-game apps using a 'game' approach) since the 6502 on the old commodores, I love the new tools available. I took a hiatus from game programming and came back to find some wonderful tools available. I started to dip my toes into XNA when it was first announced and have had some fun!

When I saw the DarkGDK offer for C++ I downloaded that free trial and messed with it a bit. I was using it outside of the XNA framework for some simple demos. It was tough, so I forked over the cash for the DarkGDK.NET version, making the mistake in thinking that paying for something would get me a more complete package. I was kind of disappointed.

I see the wonderful potential here, but level with me; Is this product designed as a 'move on' product for those that have been using DB and DBPro? The help references are great, but it seems as if the GDK products for the MS compilers make a heavy assumption that the developer is coming off a fair amount of DBPro knowledge.

What is the best product pathway to really get into the Game Creator's overall approach? My instinct says to go with DB or DBPro as a "learning tool" first. I appreciate any feedback; I can't really afford to be throwing around USD$50 to USD$100 around until I hit gold.

Dk
APEXnow
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Posted: 8th Aug 2009 03:22 Edited at: 8th Aug 2009 03:22
This is a very interesting point to be made. Before I personally took an involvement in developing DarkGDK.NET, my initial introduction to game programming was with DarkBASIC Professional. I have used libraries under C++ such as Allegro and a few others, but using DarkBASIC Professional allowed for results.... fast.

DarkGDK.NET came about after being pushed by another chap (CattleRustler) for having the power of the Engine developed by TGC, but using it in Visual Basic or C#. Both languages provide excellent Object oriented principles, and therefore opened the door to game and game tool development, but with the easy interface provided by DarkGDK.NET's classes. XNA requires more advanced programming knowledge in my opinion, and therefore is not the ideal entry level language to use.

I do feel that more tutorials are required for DarkGDK.NET to ease the learning curve if you have not come from another product such as DarkBASIC Professional, but it is definately geared towards removing the complexity of game development by putting alot of the hardwork into a handful of functions. One thing I have noticed since the initial release of the toolkit though, is that it has attracted people in building game tools, such as map editors and such. So I suppose the real answer is on whether you are a former product user, needing something familiar but with the added bonus of .NET winforms etc for tool making, or to use the other products such as DarkBASIC Professional for the actual game development. It's difficult to summarise such a distinction.

And besides, I would probably be considered bias on the matter LOL!

Your post is definately a good start for continuing the train of suggestions and ideas from other people.

Paul.

dknowles
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Posted: 8th Aug 2009 03:30
Good viewpoint. That's exactly what I was wondering. A lot of the websites recommend that you 'convert' the tutorials and examples for DBPro. I just downloaded the trial version of DBPro and it's been great!

The only thing I seem to be having an issue with is full usage of the XBOX 360 controller on Vista/Win 7. The basic joystick and button controls work fine, but I was wondering if someone had developed an extension for all the xbox 360 specific features (like "back", triggers, forced feedback). If this is covered by another forum topic, please post a link and let me know. A forum search on "xbox" yielded nothing.

As a side-note, it is amazing to me that the same basic principle of a game loop, sprites, etc. etc. haven't changed that much over all these years! Since my last professional work in this field was over 15 years ago (and I've been doing boring biz apps since!), I am pleased to see that I've found a group that was founded upon the old commodore basics. It's all new and old at the same time!

Dk
APEXnow
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Posted: 8th Aug 2009 12:19
I was brought up on the ZX81, Amstrad CPC and then the Atari ST, so I always recall the fun but competetive arena that both Atati and Amiga users fort in.

Anyway, with respect to the XBox controller query, there is a DarkGDK.NET plugin developed by one of the chaps on here (kBessa). You can find more details over on his site:

http://www.kbessa.net/

Paul.

KISTech
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Posted: 9th Aug 2009 08:54
DarkBASIC Pro is a great start to learning the ins and outs of the command set. There are a lot of plugins, both free and not, that add functionality to DBPro. Many of them have been made available for DarkGDK, and a few, very few, have made it to GDK.Net. The numbers continue to grow though, since GDK.Net in it's current state is relatively new it will just take a little time and some more people to migrate to it.

dknowles
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Posted: 9th Aug 2009 17:06
Excellent feedback all! I have the trial of DBPro. I found BlitzBasic to be better 'packaged' as a demo with lots of examples out of the gate. I think the DBPro download had 5 or 6 sample code projects. But, that being said, there is a very DEEP online community for DBPro that may sway me. Plus, I really want to be able to use the DarkGDK.NET within an XNA app to get the best of both worlds.

Right now they are not playing well together, but I'm sure one I get this thread-safety thing worked out it'll be great.

Dk
Amnzero
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Posted: 9th Aug 2009 17:06
Are images bitmaps sprites and stuff treated as data types in gdk.net?

is system.drawing.image convertable to a gdk.net image?

if(enemy == Amnzero) runAway();
Amnzero->WebSite = L"http://neovance.com/";
Lilith
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Posted: 9th Aug 2009 21:48
@dknowles

Quote: "Having been doing games (and non-game apps using a 'game' approach) since the 6502 on the old commodores"


You have my admiration on that point. I was brought up on the 8080/Z80 processor and when I did take time to look at the 6502 for writing games for emulators I was frustrated by the register architecture and what I considered to be limitation by comparison. So I gave up on it

@EveryoneElse

As I said, I started with the Altair 8800 (hand built and soldered) using the 8080/Z80 CPU. I had a Cromemco color board in it for doing games but I never wrote one of my own for it even though that's what I wanted to do. However, the ColecoVision game unit used a Z80 processor and I found a board for the S-100 bus that used the same video chip as the ColecoVision. I wrote my first major game program that could conceivably run on a ColecoVision but it took a year of assembly code and was finished just in time to see the market for ColecoVision drop.

When I finally decided to get back into writing my game seriously my roommate suggested DarkBasic but by that time I was so immersed in C/C++ that I could no longer wrap my head around the syntax and structure of Basic. I began to study SDL but its dependence on third party APIs for sound was daunting. I moved on to SFML but it was still in somewhat developmental stages. Then I saw that Dark Basic was essentially available now for C++, complete with easy to use sound and input. The only thing that I didn't like was that it wasn't truly object oriented. So I wrote some classes to wrap DGDK. I actually have two programs under development, or at least the level design stage which I felt was necessary in order to build the game itself on.

Then along came Dark .NET and I bought it. Truth to tell, I haven't even looked at it yet for everything else going in in my world. But I assume that because it is .NET it's object oriented, that images and sprites and objects have instances rather than numbered existences. I'm tempted to port my in-progress development over to Dark .NET but despair of once more abandoning my current code in favor of a more desirable implementation platform, though the conversion would probably be easier to deal with. I'm just not fond of traversing that learning curve again.

And, truth to tell, I've been taking a heavy look at XNA for the last couple of years. The appeal of XNA is the potential for implementation on an X-Box. Mind you, I have no delusions that I'm able to write the next Pac-Man Ultra. But some of the concepts I have in mind may be sufficient to garner some interest and maybe a few bucks in the process. The main problem I had with XNA was that no matter what I read no author was approaching the learning experience properly.... until a couple of weeks ago when I stumbled on an XNA 3.0 book that told me what I needed to know and in what order. There are still some things I need to implement in XNA that aren't covered by the book but google has been a good resource in that regard.

So now I'm up in the air as to whether to pursue Dark .NET or XNA. I'm interested in what the perceived advantages would be as to one over the other. The one thing that's implemented in sprites in (at least) Dark GDk is the ability to define an offset and rotate the sprite around that point. I'm sure that can be done in XNA but not out of the box. I'd assume that it's available out of the box for Dark.NET but, as I've said, I've been unable to find the time to dedicate to the next learning curve.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
Diggsey
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Posted: 10th Aug 2009 00:51
@dknowles
I don't know the content of the DGDK.net help files are, but I do know that all three engines, GDK, DBPro and GDK.net just take a little while to get used to them. Once you've made a few projects and you get to know the quirks and features of the underlying engine, you'll find it much easier. If you ever get stuck on anything it's easy enough to look on the forum, because somebody somewhere (probably quite a few somebodies!) will have had the same problem before in at least one of the three engines, and if you can't find it there are a lot of people here who will help you if you ask.

Amnzero
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Posted: 10th Aug 2009 01:26
Quote: "that images and sprites and objects have instances rather than numbered existences."


I hope that this is true.

if(enemy == Amnzero) runAway();
Amnzero->WebSite = L"http://neovance.com/";
dknowles
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Posted: 10th Aug 2009 03:01
LOL! You know, looking back on it, I wish I would have run into the other processor architectures earlier. I remember the Motorola 68k in about 1990 blew away my notions of assembly language! I mean, on the 6502, we had like an A, X, Y and that's it! We even had to resort to bit shift and loops for multiplication and division. My last commercial product with that architecture was an extended basic (BX Basic) to provide sofware sprites (back when hardware sprites were the norm) and graphic primitive drawing commands to the C128 80-column mode.

That being said, and in keeping with this thread's topic, I think I've become a little spoiled by higher level languages. In my job, we whip out what was once considered unimaginable in record time with C#/.NET. Of course that is because the tools for the typical business/web/database app have grown exponentially more powerful and easy to use.

So, I find myself at a crossroads. Do I jump onto the more mature DBPro for rapid app development right now? I think that is the right answer for getting a finished app in a hurry. But there is this appeal to taking the raw materials that DarkGDK and XNA have given us and refining them into the "ADO.NET" of game programming.

It is a bit-twiddler's delight! We should see these API/framework tools shape up as they are fleshed out but reality is I'll most likely be in "tooling up" mode on the C# side of things and will likely purchase and use DBPro for the prototypes and RAD development.

Dk
Lilith
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Posted: 10th Aug 2009 17:50
I think that's what was daunting about the 6502, despite the fact that it was used in several known game machines. Not enough registers to hold your information. The 8080 had 16 bit registers and some that could be used as memory indexers. How do you do that with two 8 bit registers and an accumulator.

And, yes, thank goodness for higher level languages, though the C that I preferred at the time may not have been considered to be too high level compared to some others. But getting closer to the machine code made it easier in general. Now we're looking at an evolved C that takes us further and further away from the machine, which might be good for me since I never warmed to 8086 architecture. But I've always loved working with pointers to speed some thing up or increase my control of what goes on. Now that seems to be taken from me.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
KISTech
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Posted: 10th Aug 2009 19:39
6502, 6809E, Imsai 8080, IBM 370, Univac 2200, dam I feel old..

Quote: "And, yes, thank goodness for higher level languages,"


Amen..

Lilith
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Posted: 10th Aug 2009 19:51
And up until a couple of years ago I still had had an Imsai 8080 in my attic. A friend is now using it as a coffee table conversation starter.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
Amnzero
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Posted: 11th Aug 2009 04:57
Pointers arent taken away, they are just not really required. You can definately still use them in VC++/CLR. I dont know about VB or C#.

if(enemy == Amnzero) runAway();
Amnzero->WebSite = L"http://neovance.com/";
KISTech
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Posted: 11th Aug 2009 18:52
Quote: "A friend is now using it as a coffee table conversation starter."


LOL, my wife would hate it, but I love the idea..

kBessa
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Posted: 12th Aug 2009 17:16
Hey guys, I'm back!

Ouch, I'm just a kiddo then, my first pc was a 486 DX2 50MHz, 4MB RAM, some 350MB of HD space... Hehehe

[center][center]
KISTech
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Posted: 12th Aug 2009 19:46
My first computer(s) were a Radio Shack Color Computer, and a TRS-80 Model 1.

My first PC was in 1988, and it was a 286 12MHz with 128K of RAM and a 10MB hard drive.

Niels Henriksen
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 14:04
I was able to make small programs 2 years before I bought my C64. I was sitting in a computershop and playing with their Amstrad and ZX Spectrum

Niels Henriksen
www.tales-of-the-realms.com
if Microsoft can sell software with bugs, so can I.
dknowles
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 14:58
I'm beginning to think I should have named the thread 'trip down 8-bit memory lane!'

Dk
APEXnow
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 16:13
I did get the opportunity to tinker with a Commadore Pet. Good grief, now I'm showing my age lol.

Paul.

Lilith
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 16:54
Quote: "Commadore Pet"


Must have been a Schipperke. I understand they were popular dogs on sailing ships.

Can I apologize in advance?

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
KISTech
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 20:07
Quote: "Commadore Pet"


Oh yeah, that is actually the second computer I ever got my hands on. They had them on display at the Lawrence Hall of Science in Berkley, CA in 1978. They had that early attempt at artificial intelligence running called LISA. You typed in phrases like "How are you?" and it would respond.

The FIRST computer I ever saw, I never identified. It was still using Vaccum Tubes, and was in the "pit" at Lawrence Berkley Laboratories. It ran all of the scientific data for their particle beam accelerator. (my dad had some very cool jobs sometimes..) I was about 12 when he gave me the grand tour, including the experiment caves.

[WAY OT]
http://www.lbl.gov/Community/BELLA/assets/BLDG71-APRIL-HAER.pdf

Page 10 talks about the two accelerators, Adam and Eve. These are the two that my dad worked on. They had these big cooling coils around them called ribs, and thus they were named because the second one, Adam, had one less cooling rib than the other.

He worked there when they were the first lab to ever accelerate Uranium-236 to 0.99999 times the speed of light.

APEXnow
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 21:12
Quote: "He worked there when they were the first lab to ever accelerate Uranium-236 to 0.99999 times the speed of light"


Did that by any chance create a Cosm. Fans of Gregory Benford can relate

Quote: "Can I apologize in advance?"


I'll let you off this once, but don't let it happen again or I'll ask Smithers to release the dogs

Paul.

darxus
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Posted: 19th Aug 2009 23:43
Hello, I am a new DarkGDK.NET user. I made a bug report here. I would like to ask if the message is processed.

Thanks.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=141349&b=37&p=1
KISTech
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Posted: 20th Aug 2009 19:55
Quote: "Did that by any chance create a Cosm."


Not that I'm aware of, but I'm fairly certain that some of the scientists that worked in the "caves" ended up glowing in the dark on occasion.

@darxus,

They'll check out your bug, and either confirm that it exists, or prove that it's not a bug. It may take a little time for them to test it thuroughly.

aerostudios
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 04:31
I still have my Atari 400 with a B-Key replacement keyboard (did away with the membrane) and a full 48K of Memory! Woohoo! I also have the tape drive that still works BTW. I have a dozen or so cartridges and about 100 tapes of programs typed-in from magazine articles.

My first commercial program I wrote on it taught you how to play guitar chords. You could also create a song of chords and save them and play them back. It was called 'Guitari' HA HA. I think I sold 1 copy.

I apologize for digressing here...

Russell B. Davis/aerostudios
dknowles
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 18:14
I've noticed a trend in my fellow programmers. They all seem to be aspiring musicians on the side!

Dk
Lilith
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 16:54
That would imply that one aspires. I can play guitar but haven't picked one up in years, mostly because of time constraints and the fact that I don't look forward to getting my fingers caloused again. However, one of my current projects is a program that creates MIDI files from a certain text format, an update of a program I did years ago.

So, yes, I like to create music but not necessarily in the traditional way.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
aerostudios
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 17:04
@dknowles;

Funny you should say that. It seems, music, art, programming all have a common thread...the act of creativity.

I'm probably the old fart of the bunch here. I was an aspiring musician beginning in 1971. I've been playing the guitar for about 40 years now. I put away the club scene for a REAL job when my first son was born. But, it is a great hobby still.

Recently, I've become very interested in the ROCK BAND NETWORK that should make the scene early 1st QTR 2010. Musicians will be able to create their songs for ROCK BAND that people can purchase. I've only got one single in mind for the moment, it's a tribute I wrote to EVEL KNIEVEL in 1974 (when I was 16). Here is the current audio track ready for ROCK BAND conversion..

http://www.braddavisrevue.com/evel_master.wav

Enjoy!
Please forgive me if I strayed too far from this thread...couldn't resist! LOL

Russell B. Davis/aerostudios
Lilith
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 19:33
Actually you're not the old fart here. In 1974, when you were 16, I was 26.

Lilith, Night Butterfly
I'm not a programmer but I play one in the office
aerostudios
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 20:17
@Lilith,

ah...pleased to meet you. I'm sure there are too many over 40s on here though.

Russell B. Davis/aerostudios
Stefano
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 21:11
Here I am, but in 1974 I was only 12? :-|
kBessa
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 23:57
Lol, in 1974, I was -12 (minus, really)

[center][center]
KISTech
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Posted: 11th Dec 2009 18:50
I was 8.

APEXnow
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Posted: 17th Dec 2009 22:11
In 1974, I was trying to figure out why my legs weren't working properly.

Paul.

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