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Dark GDK / DGDK Open Source Project

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Matty H
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 16:46
Quote: "@matty halewood: Using win32 api for the time being and its amazing really. Just need to get use too.."


Yeah, this is an option, I have looked at some examples people have posted, it could do with wrapping up so its a bit easier to use.

Also, can you use your use your own images for buttons etc?

TechLord
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 18:08 Edited at: 6th Mar 2011 18:10
Quote: "GDK users still need a good GUI , strange that DBPro users have more easy options."

There are couple GUI Libs floating around here and several mature 3rd Party C++ GUI Libs such as Crazy Eddie's GUI System. DGDK/C++ developers could even use the Win32 API (although I wouldn't recommend it).

Quote: "I have been thinking about doing one but its just too big and its quite complex."

Game UI's are big and complex. They're more than just typical Windows-like Gadgets, they are Joysticks, 3D Cameras, 3D Sound/Listeners, Player Controllers, and much more. Its your Engine's interface to the User, and the Players interface to your game world.

The truth is, that most games/game engines use a home-grown GUI Systems specific to their engine, just like you did for Hot Goblins. MAUI is S3GE's home-grown UI. Out of all systems in a game/game engine, the UI is integral to defining it. No matter the approach one either fits their Game design into the GUI, or the GUI into their Game Engine.

Quote: "Do you have any idea on a timescale for S3GE? I know its probably longer than first expected as it's mostly just you working on this at the moment I think. If it is finished anytime soon I'm sure plenty of people will want to try it out and perhaps even work together on something."

The best I can do for timescale is to provide updates via the Forum and DOSP Coordinator Task. The source is available 247365 via SVN for anyone to hop in with me at anytime. The SVN process isn't that difficult setup/use and implicitly serves as a filter for only serious inquiries.

Red Eye
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 18:25 Edited at: 6th Mar 2011 18:27
Quote: "(although I wouldn't recommend it)"


I dont see why not... It basicaly handles more and way better than any Gui out there for DGDK.

Quote: "Yeah, this is an option, I have looked at some examples people have posted, it could do with wrapping up so its a bit easier to use.

Also, can you use your use your own images for buttons etc?"


You can use bitmaps but not on all type of buttons.

Quote: "Game UI's are big and complex. They're more than just typical Windows-like Gadgets, they are Joysticks, 3D Cameras, 3D Sound/Listeners, Player Controllers, and much more. Its your Engine's interface to the User, and the Players interface to your game world."


= Game UI's make it possible for user to change any propertie of the game engine/level.

And for people wondering if winapi supports fullscreen, it does, havent got time to post example.

Matty H
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 19:46
I know seeing the progress of other people can be inspiring on a project so here is what I have been doing:



I know Fulcrum could do vehicles but parts of the api for this new plugin are alot better/easier. Also, Fulcrum never had the debug renderer which is a vital tool as you can see the physics alongside your game/app.

If I finish this it will be a paid plugin, probably called "DynamiX" if I sell it myself or "Dark DynamiX" if I go through TGC.

But, it will also power the physics in the S3GE engine, so if S3GE is free to use then this plugin will be free to use via this engine

TechLord
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 07:39 Edited at: 7th Mar 2011 08:25
Quote: "I know Fulcrum could do vehicles but parts of the api for this new plugin are alot better/easier. Also, Fulcrum never had the debug renderer which is a vital tool as you can see the physics alongside your game/app."

I assume the Debug Renderer is a separate App. If so, I'm curious as to what a seperate debug renderer offers that you cannot see within the engine? IMO the engine offers the most reliable WYSIWYG results.

Fulcrum is extremely easy to use. The only feature I think its missing is open source.

Quote: "If I finish this it will be a paid plugin, probably called "DynamiX" if I sell it myself or "Dark DynamiX" if I go through TGC."
DynamiX, very name Matty.


Quote: "But, it will also power the physics in the S3GE engine, so if S3GE is free to use then this plugin will be free to use via this engine"

HOORAH!!! This is excellent news. S3GE adds Dynamix to its list of exclusive Libraries like MikeNet2.0, MAUI 2.0, QuantumPath (Recast Navmesh).

Matty H
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 14:05
Quote: "I assume the Debug Renderer is a separate App. If so, I'm curious as to what a seperate debug renderer offers that you cannot see within the engine? IMO the engine offers the most reliable WYSIWYG results."


I dont't know what you mean by "see within the engine", the only way to be completely sure what was going in in the physics world before was to use the visual debugger, but as it was drawn in a different window you could not be completely sure if your actors/joints etc lined up exactly how you wanted them.

The debug renderer is something the PhysX SDK offers, you tell it to record debug info, it then gives you a list of lines, dots and triangles which you then draw, obviously the plugin takes care of all this for you so you just do this:


Then in your loop:


In the video above I hide the objects when drawing the debug info but you can leave everything in and draw the debug info alongside your objects.

TechLord
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 15:46
Quote: "I dont't know what you mean by "see within the engine", the only way to be completely sure what was going in in the physics world before was to use the visual debugger, but as it was drawn in a different window you could not be completely sure if your actors/joints etc lined up exactly how you wanted them."
You answered the question. I use the term Engine generically for the Program that's using DynamiX to produce and display the physics world to the user.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 05:09
Though this sounds like a very ambitions endeavor, it looks like you're already on your way to making this a reality!

I am not sure where I would fit in on this project or if I could contribute to this project, though I could generate some icons and development stuff for the "internals" that you could use for the System, MAUI and Event Placing and other such stuff (sounds on/off, etc.).

Please let me know.
I am working on some icons for an RTS and for a simplistic icon base for my FPS-RPG-MMO hybrid based on my handwritten/multiply-rewritten paper-&-pen RPG. These are barely more than 8 colors, but represent various things...
asteroids + planets + space stations + ships
chat + help + item info + inventory + ship cargo
preferences + save game + load game + control config
... and lots more


Contact me through e-mail
aryu.limitless@yahoo.com
and I will respond ASAP! Thank you.

TechLord
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 12:08 Edited at: 10th Mar 2011 16:11
Quote: "Though this sounds like a very ambitions endeavor, it looks like you're already on your way to making this a reality!"

Hi Anitarquious,

DOSP is ambitious, but, its all about maximizing effeciency using Consolidation, Modularity, Common Standards and readily available Open Source Libraries.

Quote: "I could generate some icons and development stuff for the "internals" that you could use for the System, MAUI and Event Placing and other such stuff (sounds on/off, etc.)."


As you may have noticed S3GE's current art is little to non existent, we could definitely use R&D Media Assets during this stage of the project to give it a little more visual appeal and also test R&D of the media creation systems.

Quote: "
I am working on some icons for an RTS and for a simplistic icon base for my FPS-RPG-MMO hybrid based on my handwritten/multiply-rewritten paper-&-pen RPG. These are barely more than 8 colors, but represent various things..."

Sounds like my kind of game. In fact, thats the final phase of the Testbed Game/Application we are building side-by-side with Engine to test and implement features.

The Undocumented Testbed Game/Application DEVolution: FPS --> FP(RP)S --> FPRP(S)S --> (MMO)FPRPSS

FPS
First Person Shooter featuring Small Scale Multiplayer and Capture-The-Flag Game Mechs.

FP(RP)S
First Person Role Playing Shooter featuring Role Playing Elements for Character/NPC Building and Customization, Story-boarding and Objective Creation Systems for Quest Creation.

FPRP(S)S
First Person Role Playing Strategy Shooter featuring RTS inspired Resource Management Systems to support MMO Economics.

(MMO)FPRPSS
Massive Multiplayer Online First Person Role Playing Strategy Shooter.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 15:42
I can't wait!
I'm working on some stuff currently, and some other stuff that may be needed...

Taking a page from Vavle's "Portal SDK", I could create some icons based on those, and some from FPSC, too. There's also some cool icons from "RPG Maker VX" that could also work... (All with changes and such to make them more DOSP related.)

What kinds of icons would you need for MAUI? Some of those seem either multiply redundant (events, devices, etc.), but some could be more "item specific" like SF-Doors, Wd-Doors (wooden doors), Water-Pool, Water-Lake, Water-Rivr, and other such things...

Many of these icons I'd like to see worked into a similar "usage" for an icon that "contains" multiple settings for the end-user to choose.


The FP(RP)S sounds like "Borderlands"! This is also a great way to test some ideas with that, too... (My fiancee told me that she'd love to see "LEGO Borderlands"! THAT would be a GREAT concept to test! LOL)

Another question about the "icons", would you want them set up in "states"? Not Clicked, Clicked, Chosen? If so, I can do these too as a page of 64x64x3 icons and run them as per their use: "Event", "Player Stuff", "NPC Stuff", "On-Screen Interactive Panel" (OSIP), and others.

I will drop an example of a complete "NCl/Cl/Ch" set for perusal. I am making them 64x64 for better control of the faces and wording, should they need them-- though I am thinking of using "pictures" AND "words" faces for alternate choices-- just change the "theme" of the editor!

Should anyone want to use these "icons" in their game(s), just drop me a note and place my "name" in the credits. That's all I ask...
I will even build custom icons should anyone request them.


WickedVixen
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 15:53
Also note: I am "AryuLimitless" on Xbox Live. (Anyone who plays, drop me a line (and possibly a Friend Request). I will respond there when I have the time...

I would prefer both my TGC's Forum handle and my real name in the credits. This also gives other members of the Games Industry notice when you list your real name.

TechLord
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 16:58 Edited at: 10th Mar 2011 17:26
Quote: "What kinds of icons would you need for MAUI? Some of those seem either multiply redundant (events, devices, etc.), but some could be more "item specific" like SF-Doors, Wd-Doors (wooden doors), Water-Pool, Water-Lake, Water-Rivr, and other such things..."
Since we are in the R & D stage, I really don't know, I was just going to use popular icons used in application menus and create special ones that visually represents what a gizmo does if needed. MAUI can also use 3D meshes for Gizmos, thus the shape of mesh can represent what does.

Quote: "Another question about the "icons", would you want them set up in "states"? Not Clicked, Clicked, Chosen? If so, I can do these too as a page of 64x64x3 icons and run them as per their use: "Event", "Player Stuff", "NPC Stuff", "On-Screen Interactive Panel" (OSIP), and others.
"

MAUI is 100% State-Orientated. MAUI's Behaviors, Transitions, Styles, Themes, Schemes are all compartmentalized based on state. In fact, a majority of S3GE's systems are based on MAUI's implementation of States.


Click Me! See Code! Find ICON THEMES!


WickedVixen
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 17:52
This is only a start of the icons...
Let me know if these are too big or hard to read...

With more coders and graphic artists sporting larger wider screens these days, I figured 64x64 would be optimal...

I can change these around, too, if that's needed.

Here's a "set" of them.

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TechLord
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 18:55 Edited at: 10th Mar 2011 18:59
Looking Good Anitarquious. MAUI's Style also supports Bitmap Fonts, which be used to draw the main words in the yellow font on the Sprite Image if you didn't want to manually create each one. With MAUIs Theme and Style you could generate each on the fly saving yourself lots of work. Although you can use Text for Icons, the intent was to use them for pictograms to supplement the presentation of textual info to the user like ,,,, etc.

We could convert the yellow font into a FontArt PNG like:


WickedVixen
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Posted: 11th Mar 2011 02:49
I can work on that and a few others, which would be pretty cool to see and use. I'd imagine you'd want a layout similar to the "MAUI" version you've displayed-- I can do that.

I can work on those little "picture" icons, though I'm not quite sure what we're going to need.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 12th Mar 2011 01:20 Edited at: 12th Mar 2011 04:59
I know may be premature but I created a TTF of the yellow font I did for the "buttons". I called it ZarDOSP!... LOL

I am allowing all of you who work on DOSP to grab a copy. I am permitting DOSP USE ONLY! Any other use, unless it's in a game that someone is building, must ask my permission FIRST, then grant me credits in TWO PLACES: Paper/PDF Documentation -AND- in the Game's Credits Screen.

Thank you.

Please note that there are no special "foreign" characters yet, and there are some "glyphs" that were predefined that I didn't change/delete. If you need those, I will update this font to accommodate those. Just ask. Thanks.

[ EDIT: Newer version of the font. No "foreign" letters yet. That'll be taken care of tomorrow (and a font update). Thanks. -AQ ]

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WickedVixen
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Posted: 12th Mar 2011 16:35 Edited at: 12th Mar 2011 17:14
Here's the ZarDOSP with the "foreign" letters and other symbols.
I built this really fast, but it should suffice for certain things and whatnot... LOL

[ EDIT: Working on a bunch of "single entity" icons. These can be made larger, if needed. These are 16x16 currently and I'm getting some things taken care of... ]

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WickedVixen
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Posted: 17th Mar 2011 05:58
Is there anything to beta test yet? I am hoping for something...

Something Good
My God... It's Full of Stars!
I Can't Wait!!

TechLord
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Posted: 17th Mar 2011 11:15 Edited at: 17th Mar 2011 11:46
Quote: "Is there anything to beta test yet? I am hoping for something..."
Have you acquired the SVN? DOSP is in a R & D test phase, thus beta testing is constant. I'm working on some aspect of S3GE everyday and commit updates regulary.

If you have not setup the SVN, that would be the very first step. Setup can be a little tricky, but, I can assist with that. There has been some conflicts reported between XP and Vista Software version. I'm developing with VC2008/XP. Also, DOSP contains its own modified version of DGDK.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 01:53
No, I do not, sadly.
I followed the links and could not download the SVN.

Please assist me with this...

(Oh, yeah... Happy St. Paddy's Day! )

TechLord
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 07:07 Edited at: 18th Mar 2011 07:20
Quote: "No, I do not, sadly.
I followed the links and could not download the SVN.

Please assist me with this...

(Oh, yeah... Happy St. Paddy's Day! )"


1) GET SOURCEFORGE ACCOUNT

The DarkGDK Open Source Project uses SVN (subversion) http://subversion.tigris.org/ version control system hosted by http://sourceforge.net to keep track of all work and all changes to Project Files. It allows Contributors to collaborate File updates with greater ease. A SourceForge Username & Password will be required to use SVN. If you don't already have a SourceForge Account it can be obtained https://sourceforge.net/account/registration/. Once you're registered on SourceForge, provide me your SourceForge username so I can add it to the project list here --> https://sourceforge.net/project/admin/project_membership.php?group_id=276067

SVN Basics:


2)GET TORTOISE SVN CLIENT

You can view SVN files online via SourceForge http://darkgdkosp.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/darkgdkosp/ To communicate with the SVN Server you will need a SVN Client. TortoiseSVN and AnkhSVN (optional) come highly recommended, but, you can also use your own.

TortoiseSVN Setup

1. Download tortoiseSVN from http://tortoisesvn.net/ , for free.
2. Install it.
3. Create DOSP Directory and [Right Click]. (DOSP SVN Directory Structure is aligned to that of the Dark GDK Directory)
4. You should now see an option "SVN Checkout"
5a. In "URL of repository", paste this: [img]https://darkgdkosp.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/darkgdkosp [/img]. In "Checkout directory", paste the path of the Dark GDK directory. Example: C:\Program Files\The Game Creators\DOSP
6. You are done!

For anyone who wants to use your own client, here is what you need:
svn co https://darkgdkosp.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/darkgdkosp

How to use TortoiseSVN:


TechLord
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Posted: 20th Mar 2011 17:48 Edited at: 20th Mar 2011 18:34
Hello Everyone, I've been real busy with DOSP. I've been working on several aspects of the project to include a OGRE powered version, codename: BloodSugar.

My primary focus has been on simplifying working with DOSP by providing a compact interfaces. The first area of concern is complexity of the terms/definitions and design goals of DOSP. Many of the Terms/Definitions are simply too drawn out and confusing, example: DOSP Project-Trio: Super 3D Game, Super 3D Game Editor, and Super 3D Game World. I've consolidate these terms into one, to the Super 3D Game Platform.

In my opinion, the design Goals for S3GP are very realistic, but, intimidating with all that information blurted out there on one page. Its all about presentation here, So I'm going to use a collapsible menu to present the goals in more incremental fashion.

My secondary focus has been on beefing up the documentation. With the intent to use Doxygen, I've reformatted most of the comments to work with Doxygen using the JavaDoc style


WickedVixen
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Posted: 21st Mar 2011 04:21
Sounds impressive with the "simplification".
It looks like it should be a very self-sustained implementation, though some things will need to be tweaked in the "final" beta testing phases... LOL

Anyway, I'm still looking to DL the "DOSP" stuff from SourceForge. I have not done that yet, as my computer is having 'weird' issues.

TechLord, keep up the great work. I can't wait to see once my issues are resolved.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 21st Mar 2011 04:48
I had read something about a year or two back about a colleague using Doxygen for his MySQL/PHP UDF (User-Developed Functions) to keep the syntax and usage up-to-date. He was also using it to assist in the development of a single-text e-book for some applications he's been working on...

I was looking into this for some other things, and I wanted to use something like this for my Macintosh development, but there was nothing well-documented or user-friendly enough to do what I needed. I started to develop something, but lost the hard drive-- it just gave out-- and I lost much of what I developed (except for what I burned to CDs... LOL).

Anyway, this looks sweet! And I think this will work well!

Matty H
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2011 01:19
Tech - Thanks for pointing me to Crazy Eddies GUI, it took a full day of messing to get a window into my GDK window but now its done I don't think I will get many more problems(I hope).

If everything keeps working well I will post a quick tutorial for people to set it up, should do until we have S3GE

Are you really making an OGRE powered version? This sounds awesome, are you using interfaces in S3GE to filter out the rendering code? If not, are you writing stuff from scratch for that engine?

I have been thinking about porting my PhysX wrapper to other engines although OGRE has alot of options already, but I think there are engines out there which could use a complete physics wrapper.

Keep up the good work and the useful links.

TechLord
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2011 12:42
Quote: "Are you really making an OGRE powered version? This sounds awesome, are you using interfaces in S3GE to filter out the rendering code? If not, are you writing stuff from scratch for that engine?"
BloodSugar, removes DGDK completely but uses practically all the 3rd party libs and Systems S3GE does. Til now I have only used DGDK 2D Drawing/Images/Sprites (extensively used for MAUI). I have rewrite these methods the OGRE-way.

Quote: "I have been thinking about porting my PhysX wrapper to other engines although OGRE has alot of options already, but I think there are engines out there which could use a complete physics wrapper."
Yeah, OGRE has Wrappers for most of the popular Physics Engines: NxOgre(Physx), OgreBullet, OgreODE, OgreNewt. I intend to use Fulcrum/Dynamix as I want to keep the code base for both versions as close as possible. I would guess that its just a matter of getting the OGRE geometry into Dynamix.

Matty H
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2011 15:07
Quote: "I would guess that its just a matter of getting the OGRE geometry into Dynamix."


DynamiX is written in 2 layers, the first layers only dependency is PhysX. This layer uses an 'ActorSync' interface I wrote to update the actors. The idea was to make this layer as large as possible for portability reasons but in reality its about 30% of the plugin. That said, most of the complicated stuff is in here so its probably about half the plugin in man hours.

I think you should consider the other physics wrappers for OGRE, I have not finished this one yet and I'm not sure I will have time to implement an OGRE version even if it is only half the work again.

There is the possibility that I could provide you the source for this first layer and you could go from there but this may also take longer than just using a readily available physics library.

TechLord
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Posted: 24th Mar 2011 01:03 Edited at: 24th Mar 2011 01:05
Quote: "I think you should consider the other physics wrappers for OGRE, I have not finished this one yet and I'm not sure I will have time to implement an OGRE version even if it is only half the work again."
I was afraid you're going to say that NxOgre is the most complete Physx Wrapper for OGRE, but, the WIP says the Developer is still working on character controller and AnimatedController. I really wanted to be able to take advantage of PPU if available and Physx is the only Lib I know that provides support for one. This will require more investigation.

Quote: "There is the possibility that I could provide you the source for this first layer and you could go from there but this may also take longer than just using a readily available physics library."
I would gladly use the source. That would be beneficial in either allowing me to extend Fulcrum for both versions of S3GP or help me figure out a strategy for implementing another solution in the OGRE version if I have to (in which I'm not all that excited to do, sigh).

Matty H
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Posted: 24th Mar 2011 22:16
Maybe its not as bad as I made out, the GDK layer of the plugin has lots of commands but most of them don't do much, they basically just put everything into maps so you can access everything with id numbers, you would not need any of this for OGRE I presume.

There is also the chance that I will be trying OGRE out in the near future, DarkGDK is a great way to ease yourself into C++ with instant results, but once you are using oop techniques GDK is a little self defeating imo.

I still have lots to do with GDK but in the longrun I will be looking at other engines.

TechLord
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Posted: 26th Mar 2011 14:10
Quote: "Maybe its not as bad as I made out, the GDK layer of the plugin has lots of commands but most of them don't do much, they basically just put everything into maps so you can access everything with id numbers, you would not need any of this for OGRE I presume."

I assume that a Physics engine only requires the vertice points of a mesh to constuct a physics/collision object (aka body), none of the visual data. My assumption is based on working with other libs that create Bodies from mesh geometry.

Box2D is completely agnostic to graphics only requiring the points that define the shape to construct a body. It performs the physics simulation updating the bodies position/rotation values. These values can be applied to Sprite for display. I assume a 3D Physics Engine works in the same fashion at least for rigid bodies. This method simplifies movement control switching between physics, skeletal animation, Pathfinding, User, whatever.

Quote: "There is also the chance that I will be trying OGRE out in the near future, DarkGDK is a great way to ease yourself into C++ with instant results, but once you are using oop techniques GDK is a little self defeating imo."
From my perspective, if DGDK's API was complete (including functions for all the systems one would come to expect for building a Game/Game Engine: Physics, Scripting, Pathfinding, etc), one would never have to be exposed to OOP or other libraries. Fortunately for us, it isn't complete and once that OOP Box is opened it cannot be closed.

Matty H
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Posted: 26th Mar 2011 15:01
Here are some construction commands from the core layer of DynamiX:


So for creation you need to provide a few details about your object and you also provide a pointer to the ActorSync object, I can go into more detail about this if needed, it's the interface to whatever renderer you might use, it allows the core physics to call an update command which you have implemented before you create that type of object(box, sphere etc all updated the same).

You see that the commands return actors which I just put in a map so they can be referenced with ID numbers, then implementing any of the simpler PhysX functions(addForce() etc) is just a matter of getting the sctor from the map and then:
myActor->addForce(); //Second layer of plugin just wraps this using ID number to access actor.

You are basically right though, the physics has nothing to do with the renderer, we do that on creation of the actors and then the update() function in the ActorSync interface.

Just thought I would take you through the basics so you know what you are possibly dealing with for an OGRE version.

TechLord
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Posted: 27th Mar 2011 03:35
Quote: "So for creation you need to provide a few details about your object and you also provide a pointer to the ActorSync object, I can go into more detail about this if needed, it's the interface to whatever renderer you might use, it allows the core physics to call an update command which you have implemented before you create that type of object(box, sphere etc all updated the same)."


I'm not all the interested in writing a Physics Wrapper, but, I have pondered over it. I would only be concerned about the core physics to call an update command which you have implemented before you create that type of object. That method suggests that the physics engine has total control over the Entity and I have seen this type of control caused major conflicts between DarkAI and DarkPhysics.

In my opinion, there can be a simpler interface between the Physics and External Controllers that influence control over objects within each other. This allows developers to easily change which system has primary of control and simplifies dependencies between controllers. A set of Control Vectors {Speed, Direction, Position, Rotation} could easily handle the job. Perhaps, you have this covered in the ActorSync structure.

Controller to Physics: Passes Control Vector to the Physics Engine to directly influence a Body's Orientation and Speed within the simulation. This can be used to allow a External Controller (ie: Pathfinder) to influence directional and speed changes over a body in the simulation.

Physics to Controller: Stores updated Orientation in Control Vectors for retrieval by Controller. This can data can be used by a controller to update AI Agents, Renderer, etc.



Since each method returns a pointer to NxActor, could we only require the use of one command (with needed overrides)?


Matty H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2011 13:07
Quote: "That method suggests that the physics engine has total control over the Entity and I have seen this type of control caused major conflicts between DarkAI and DarkPhysics. "


Not exactly, the simulation needs to be updated if its controlling the actor or not, otherwise the actors it does control would not interact with the actors you control.

As for any possible conflict with an AI system then I would need more details of what could cause this.

We have kinematic actors and character controllers which we have total positional control over, dynamic actors need to have forces applied to them but I'm sure an AI can do this, for vehicles etc.

Quote: "Since each method returns a pointer to NxActor, could we only require the use of one command (with needed overrides)? "

To a point, you could create any of the rigid body actors like you suggest straight away. But other commands return the following stuctures:
NxController, NxSoftBody, NxTriangleMesh, NxConvexMesh etc

The more I think about it now the more I think S3GE is best just using this layer and keeping a pointer to the actor rather than an ID number, this will make it a little faster and the code would remain the same for the OGRE version.

You then just implement the ActorSync interface for any renderer you like, they are very simple classes with only one main function, update().

So it is more work but more flexible and portable, it would be up to you to implement how you want the actors/controllers etc to be handled in the engine.

Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 08:50
Could someone explain what this thread is about?

I read the first post but it's confusing and doesn't actually say what is is. Is it a game engine? If so, is it coding or is it a visual editor?

You need to make yourself a bit clearer. Plus when I click on the thing about joining as a guest, there's nothing there about being a guest.

Clonkex

Never lie -- The government doesn't like the competition.

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TechLord
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 13:19 Edited at: 28th Mar 2011 15:33
Quote: "Could someone explain what this thread is about?
I read the first post but it's confusing and doesn't actually say what is is. Is it a game engine? If so, is it coding or is it a visual editor?"


Quote: "The goal of DOSP is develop a Commercial Grade 3D Game Engine, Game Editor, and Game based on DGDK/C++. A Project-Trio, in which each project represents a phase in DOSP and we are developing each consecutively. We are in the first phase of development."
Currently, we're programming the Game Engine. Next, is a Visual Editor. Lastly, a Game.

Quote: "Plus when I click on the thing about joining as a guest, there's nothing there about being a guest."
The link should take you here. If this is correct, username=guest, password=guest.

TechLord
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2011 20:48 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2011 20:49
CHIMP was originally conceived as a texture manipulation system inspired TextureMax. The system separates images into channels (layers) with a color map which then apply different image effects/filters to each channel adding instant variation to your media. A technique often employed for character customization in games.



In drawing out the concept of how CHIMP would work using GIMP, I realized that GIMP possessed the power that I was looking for...then it came to me :idea: What if I had the power of GIMP for in-game Texture Manipulation?

CHIMP adopts many concepts from GIMP, but, applies them in a 3D Rendering context specific to OGRE & Gorilla. CHIMP also attempts to consolidate concepts into fewer objects. Unlike, GIMP, CHIMP is not an application but, an API to be used real-time texture manipulation within OGRE to texture Overlays and Entities. Below are the Chimp Objects:

Texture Texture is the basic entity used by CHIMP and corresponds to a single display of one or more Image Layers that is mapped to 3D Geometry (Mesh & Quads) surface.

Layer A Layer is a blank (transparent) Image in which Drawing Operations can be performed. Layers are stacked one on top of the other allowing the opaque contents of lower images to be seen through the transparent areas of the upper images. CHIMP uses layers for all types of image manipulation tasks.


Image Layers


Final Texture


ChannelMap A Specialty Layer that uses different color pixels to represent areas on image in which operations can be performed independently. ChannelMaps were the basis for the original CHIMP Concept of separating images into channels (layers) with a color map which then apply different image effects/filters to each channel adding instant variation to your media. CHIMP provide several tools for working with ChannelMaps such as Layer Splitting, XML import/export for ChannelMap data. Channels provide a Layer within Layer mechanism and can be used to create a variety of Image-based Maps applied to multiple Layers.

UVMap A special Layer that facilitates the application of a Texture to 3D Object's Surface. Like ChannelMaps, CHIMP provide several tools for working with UVMap XML import/export for UVMap data.

Sprite Sprites are a array of pixels drawn on a Layer or stored in memory. There are two types of sprites: Primitives and Pictures. Primitives are procedurally drawn Sprites: Dot (1 pixel), Line(Point to Point), Polygon (Line List), Picture(Pixel Array). Pictures are pre-drawn Images that are usually loaded from file or memory.

Applicator The Applicator is the base Object in which Brush and Selection Tools inherit from. Its job is to define Point & Paths in which to Select or Draw Sprites. The Applicator's orientation and state can be controlled by user input or script for automation. The behavior of the Applicator is defined by two sets of Scripted Procedures: ApplicatorPath and ApplicatorSprite. The ApplicatorPath Procedure defines the UI/AI behavior for 1) Applicator Movement, 2) Marker Positioning, 3) Path Completion. The ApplicatorSprite Procedure defines the Drawing behavior for how Put/Get Sprites along the Path and what Compositors to apply.

Marker A 2D point placed on Layer with an Applicator and used to create Paths to Put/Get Sprites. Dependent on the ApplicatorPath Procedures, a Path may only consist of one Marker and place Sprites instantly. All placement of Sprites on a layer are managed by the Applicator/Marker mechanism.

Compositor The Compositor is a PostFilter Effects System that uses Shader Scripts to manipulate individual pixel color components (RGBA) in a selection of pixels on layer. Compositor PostFilters are similar to layers and can be stacked on top one another to effect a final rendering output. The Compositor can apply PostFilters to Sprites as they are placed by ApplicatorSprite Procedure or use the Applicator to apply effect to the entire image layer or a selection of pixels using a Fill Algorithm.

Brush and Selection Tools Brush & Selection Tools are derived from Applicator and Compositor.

Scripts CHIMP uses a variety of Script Sytnax supported by OGRE (Material/Compositor Scripts) and S3GXL (XML & LUA).

WickedVixen
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Posted: 5th Apr 2011 04:34
@TechLord: That sounds impressive! I can't wait to see this work!

I am already thinking of what I want to build to create a 3D version of either "RPG Maker VX" (Enterbrain) or a classic C64 utility called "Adventure Construction Set", but only in the way you build the adventure using 'specific items' and give them a generic look (a standard texture relating to the object's purpose) and an actual look[/] (what it would look like in the "game"). These things include 'portals/doors', 'spaces/custom spaces', 'obstacles/custom obstacles', 'treasure', 'weapons', 'armor', 'items/food', 'NPCs' and 'terrain fills'.

Also, there are other [i]things
that can be built using this system (and a naming convention and syntax) for user-created items/entities. This "CHIMP" texturing-layering system looks way impressive! I can't wait to see this working!

On another note: still cannot download the current "stuff" to take a look what there is. Contact me via e-mail and I'll take a look there... Thanks.
aryu.limitless@yahoo.com

TechLord
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Posted: 6th Apr 2011 22:31 Edited at: 6th Apr 2011 22:37


Hi Anitarquious, I remember playing with the Adventure Construction Set on Apple II. I simply didn't have the patience then to create a decent adventure with it - lol. The Maker Genre (RPG Maker VX/Adventure Construction Set) and other highly customizable games are the inspirational blueprint for S3GP. Making Stuff is the whole point of S3GP so why not have a built-in Maker for everything or atleast enough parts to make Makers from?

I realized a long time ago that Textures are the core visual element in both 2D/3D games, so possessing powerful drawing capabilities at the base of S3GP's Editing Applications were a no brainer. In fact, a Image Editor was scheduled to be the first Editor Application. Haliop and I discussed developing such an Image API and Editor previously somewhere in this thread under the names Automatic Environment Mapping, Trixie/Trixster, CHIMP. We merged our ideas and wrote a few C++ Classes to start developing Trixie. Unfortunately, Haliop had to cease efforts to tend to real-world issues. I redirected my focus on UI functionality.



Ideas for CHIMP were rekindled when I started to work on OGRE version of S3GP. I found a neat 2D drawing Library for Ogre properly named Gorilla. I elected to use Gorilla to replace the DGDK drawing functions used for creating the UI Sprite textures on the fly. Coincidentally, Gorilla had a built-in Layer system. This scenario seems almost destiny.

TechLord
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 03:24 Edited at: 8th Apr 2011 19:47
A Can of Worms

I surely opened a can of worms with the porting of S3GP to OGRE. Significant rewrites in the code and structure have occurred, particularly with MAUI. MAUI has been replaced with IOU (Input/Output & You). A good chunk of the MAUI concepts (physics-driven collision, event-based behaviors, transitions, themes, schemes, etc) have been retained and improved upon.

IOU brings the idea of consolidated User Interface to fruition. I'm not beating around the bush with that idea this time around. The S3GXL Scripting has also been over hauled to be more streamlined and fit in with popular GUI concepts (say goodbye Gizmo, and hello to Widget) to make it more intuitive


Overall its more work and is putting a delay in some of the other things I wanted to work on, but, I'm too far to quit and I really like the speed of OGRE. sigh.

Matty H
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 15:13
Quote: "Overall its more work and is putting a delay in some of the other things I wanted to work on, but, I'm too far to quit and I really like the speed of OGRE. sigh."


What kind of speed improvements are you seeing with OGRE? And in what areas?

I have an idea for quite a large commercial project and I am considering OGRE, although I would finish it quicker if I did it in GDK because I am familiar with it.

I downloaded OGRE and tried the samples but could not get a quick idea of any speed improvemets, if you say its alot faster then I will look more into it, if its a little faster then I may stick with what I know.

TechLord
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 19:34 Edited at: 8th Apr 2011 23:53
Quote: "What kind of speed improvements are you seeing with OGRE? And in what areas"
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I intended to state
Quote: "I'm too far to quit and I really like the speed of development with OGRE."

I was able get it compiled and running in less than two hrs. Wrote a working demo from the tuts in 3 hrs. In a record 8hrs, I ported all the DOSP Project-Trio source, I stripped out DGDK, and rewrote DarkLUA, DarkNet Extension, and IOU (formerly MAUI).

I feel like I bit off more than I chew and I'm too far into the port, to back out. In fact, the changes are too radical to consider the OGRE version a direct port, its a completely different Beast...A completely different engine. This may have turned into a conversion and that wasn't my original intention. I fear that I may have crossed the point of no return to work on the DGDK version. So I'm cramming every spare waking minute I have to get S3GP to the working level of DOSP Project-Trio as fast as possible to continue progression towards making games.

As far as OGRE's Performance goes I've read only good reviews online and it has been used in commercial games such as TorchLight.

Matty H
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Posted: 9th Apr 2011 02:06
Ah, ok I misunderstood.

Good to hear that you got into it pretty quick as that may be me soon.

Have you stopped working on the GDK version? Also, do you have a thread over on the OGRE forum?

There is a chance I will be doing something with OGRE soon and I will need my physics so I may be able to help you out with that, I am going to finish it first for GDK/DBPro, I also need to release Hot Goblins, after that I'm free to venture on to new pastures

TechLord
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Posted: 9th Apr 2011 11:06
Quote: "Have you stopped working on the GDK version? Also, do you have a thread over on the OGRE forum?"
No, this is still a DGDK Open Source Project. I'm merely swapping out DGDK DX Wrapper for OGRE. I'm too lazy to keep up with two different code bases so I will continue development with the OGRE version. DGDK version will still be available via SVN and others can continue to work with DGDK if desired. The OGRE Version will also import DBO and DGDK specific media formats.

Its been difficult to get others to visualize what I see S3GP to be. I truly want to put the idea that S3GP is just a set of Game Libraries to rest. S3GP is a Game Server/Client Application with everything built-in to create and run Games of every genre.

By popular demand, S3GP will be officially distributed as a Application (as soon as I finish the IOU implementation), with Source only available via SVN. The Application Version will only be updated with significant improvements. The SVN will be in constant R&D state and subject to change without notifications. I'm no longer selling the Open-Sourceness of S3GP anymore.

TechLord
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Posted: 12th Apr 2011 14:55
In porting over S3GP to OGRE, I'm also re-evaluating the Testbed Game Application development. The goal was to build the Game side-by-side with Engine to test and implement features. Also, keep contributors motivated in working towards The EndGame.

The initial problem in developing the Testbed Game was determining what type of Game the Testbed would be. I desired to develop a game that would be able to effectively demonstrate support for most of the popular genres. My idea was too vague and too grand. So we scaled back and came up with The Undocumented Testbed Game DEVolution: FPS --> FP(RP)S --> FPRP(S)S --> (MMO)FPRPSS to build a FPS that would evolve into a MMO.

FPS - First Person Shooter featuring Small Scale Multiplayer and Capture-The-Flag Game Mechanics.

FP(RP)S - First Person Role Playing Shooter featuring Role Playing Elements for Character/NPC Building and Customization, Story-boarding and Objective Creation Systems for Quest Creation.

FPRP(S)S - First Person Role Playing Strategy Shooter featuring RTS inspired Resource Management Systems to support MMO Economics.

(MMO)FPRPSS - Massive Multiplayer Online First Person Role Playing Strategy Shooter.

WLGfx
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Posted: 12th Apr 2011 15:09 Edited at: 12th Apr 2011 18:20
I'm going to have a look into the OGRE engine to see what I can get out of it. Once I've had a full evaluation of it I'll let you know what I could possibly come up with. Maybe even a Scene Graph Editor for that too.

EDIT:

Well, I downloaded the demos first and not all of them ran on my system. I'm not into heavy use graphics cards so all these vertex, blah blah didn't run at all. All I have is laptops to program with. I benchmark my stuff on the slowest laptop I have. By the looks of OGRE, most of the community will be programming their stuff to use all of those extras that I haven't access to.

Warning! May contain Nuts!
TechLord
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Posted: 12th Apr 2011 23:13
Quote: "I'm going to have a look into the OGRE engine to see what I can get out of it. "
OGRE is a Scene-Graph based graphics engine only, its not compatible to DGDK/DBPRO which are Game Engine APIs. OGRE has a full suite of OGRE specific data formats. If your editor can export the data in OGRE format, you wont have to write any special version of WL-SGE, just a import/export plugin. IMHO, extensible and flexible Import/Export System is the most critical feature of an 3rd Party Editor, empowering your Editor to support many engines. If WL-SGE doesnt utilize scripting, you may want to consider it for Import/Export only.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 02:23
@heyufool1: I am currently working on an MMOFPSRPG... (Try saying that 5 times fast (or is it 5 runtimes fast..?).) LOL

Anyway, I want to be able to set it up much like "Adventure Construction Set" {C64, 1984, Stuart Smith/Electronic Arts} and build the regions and populate the rooms and maps-- then expand the situation into "planets", then "starsystems", then "clusters", then "cluster systems", then onto the "galaxy"!

All races have comparable tech. All races can travel in space. All races have innate racial abilities... ...and so on... LOL

Anyway, suggestions and comments are welcome, though being able to get your hands dirty and make things for the "group" to test is always a step better. I am working on some art and icons and placeholders and fonts for general use.

Please contact me if you want a specialized font for your game(s). I will be glad to help.
[email]Contact me here. just place in the "RE" space "S3GE (?)".
Just replace that (?) with whatever you're looking for: icons, fonts, scenes... I will do my best to provide them, around university and reality. LOL

Please let me know what you'll be using it for. If it's for tutorials/teaching/personal inclusion-- FREE USE. Professional use/game marketing/public use-- CreditWare! Drop my name into the Credits for the assets I've provided. (That's all I ask.)

aryu.limitless@yahoo.com[/email]

WickedVixen
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 04:50
Downloaded all of the DOSP etc. (Thanks to Tortoise!!!)
Looking over the one file semi-documenting the ways to script S3GXL-- I am so impressed-- I want to start coding!

I'm a little shaky with C/C++ but I think I can gain a grasp of the XML/Lua scripting structure.

What seems to be missing? From what I can see, nothing... But is there something that must be implemented before any real apps can be built?

TechLord
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 16:58 Edited at: 18th Apr 2011 17:58
Hi Anitarquious, I have a lot of stuff in my head so this is going to be long winded. Grab yourself a snack, get comfortable, and enjoy.

Quote: "Downloaded all of the DOSP etc. (Thanks to Tortoise!!!)
Looking over the one file semi-documenting the ways to script S3GXL-- I am so impressed-- I want to start coding!I'm a little shaky with C/C++ but I think I can gain a grasp of the XML/Lua scripting structure."

Tortoise is AWESOME. Documentation um....not so awesome and is a ongoing effort. I'm lazy, plagiarizing many online sources, performing mass keyword replacements lol, so some of it isn't applicable (yet).

I encourage you to get your feet wet with the current DGDK version (Super 3D Game Engine), but, be prepared to stop and hop over into the OGRE version when it comes online. I'm directing all my efforts towards the Super 3D Game Platform (OGRE) which improves upon the original design methodologies of S3GE . Most of the immediate changes are noticeable in S3GXL. The new S3GXL XML/LUA labeling scheme is more uniform (and hopefully more intuitive), very similar to DGDK, but using a 's3g' prefix for constructs.

Quote: "What seems to be missing? From what I can see, nothing... But is there something that must be implemented before any real apps can be built?"


There are several high level systems that need to be flushed out and implemented before Application/Games can be easily built with S3GP. S3GP is in its R&D stage and the S3GP Editor Suite and S3GP World (Testbed Game) Applications are being built up in the process. The ultimate goal, is to launch S3GP.exe, load in the Content {Formatted Data/Media/Logic Script} starting with YourApp.s3gp, and have FUN!!!

S3GP uses several design philosophies and methodologies from Consolidated Systems to Modular Entities, but, its core design is heavily influenced by my work as a Web Developer. If I had to sum it up in 5 words or less, its a 3D Game Net Browser. I'll discuss what I'm currently working on and what's needed.

The HAVES and the HAVE NOTS

What does S3GP have? S3GP has most of the Core Libraries in place for a Game Engine: Scripting(LUA)/irrXML(XML), Graphics (OGRE), Networking (DarkNet), Physics {Box2D & Physx}, Path-finding (Recast). I had to figure out how to glue these Libraries together to compile into a single Executable. I elected to start with a User Interface Design I developed over a course of 10 years. UI that utilizes each Core Library, and consolidates all Interactive Objects into one System. I'm aiming for UI equitable to Scaleform.

Quote: "Why not use the same system to manage interactivity between the pointer and widgets on a 2D screen, to manage the interactivity between the character and event triggers in the 3D environment?"


OGRE brings an impressive set of Graphical Features to S3GP. However, its missing a few Core Libraries to make a complete Game Engine, which is OK. S3GE only used DGDK's input, graphics, and audio. I had to locate replacement Libraries for input and audio. So far, I have a Input Library (OIS) and intend to integrate OpenAL for audio. All other libraries are independent of DGDK and have ported over with no issues.

What S3GP does not have? S3GP doesn't have a Modular Entity Construction Hierarchy Set(MEChS). Conceptually, MEChS provides modeled/textured Parts that can be snap together to create countless 3D Entity variations ideal for creating highly customizable entities in games like 3D Adventure Construction Set. I desire MEChS to be method of building all 3D Game Entities in S3GP.

Path-finding. I was in the middle of integrating Recast before I decided to port over to OGRE. Path-finding can use for many purposes. The goal is to provide a variety of Solvers to support AI and Game Mechanics. I'll resume my efforts on path-finding after I get S3GP working at the level of S3GE.

WLGfx
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 04:34
Well, I got TortoiseSVN, signed up to Sourceforge. There's tons on source forge I've noticed for a while now but SVN is new to me. I'm currently looking at the Fulcrum system to build a scene editor. The physics side of it can be used for a lot of stuff.

Warning! May contain Nuts!

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