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Geek Culture / What do you think games ARE?

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MicroMan
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 15:23
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A week or so ago I asked you why you want to make games. I’ve got another question for you, as a followup… What do you think games ARE?

I can tell you what my personal definition is. “A computer game is a specialist kind of program that with a good AI and a high user interaction strive to give the user an immersive experience of drama�. It’s a story telling device, like a book or a movie, but with its own peculiarities.

A computer program is not a graphics display. It’s not a sound station. It’s no good if a game has amazing graphics and a sound that takes you by the ankles and slam you into opposing walls a couple of times. It is no good if a game has such an amazing AI that you walk away convinced that someone has just invented SkyNet from the Terminator movies. It is no good if the story is so complex that you could spend a lifetime in contemplation of the wonders of the human mind.

The key word is immersive. Without it, you don’t have a very good game, and that’s why I don’t put my things up on my website (though I will, eventually) because right now my game looks like this. You’ve got a blue cube sliding around on a purple surface in a green room. The gameplay, the immersion, should come first and foremost in a game – and immersion is not a thing you can describe in words, so I won’t try. You’ll know it when you blink out of it and realize that those five minutes you intended to spend in front of the computer has turned magically into five hours.

That’s MY definition of what a game is. Now I’d like to hear YOUR definition. Not the one that you’ve read in a book, but the one that YOU believe in, deep down.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 15:33
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Are these questions part of a school project or something?

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
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MicroMan
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 15:40
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I'm too old to go to school.

If I tell you that my first computer was a ZX-Spectrum, you realize just how old I am. Lol!

I'm just just curious, and one learns by asking. Besides, I'm stuck in learning DBP, so I might as well spend some time here.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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MicroMan
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 15:43
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PS.

Don't get me started on the documentation of DBP. Even C++ was easier -- this is learning by guessing how a computer language works.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Johnny Dark Afterlife
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 15:43
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My theory is that games are to escape reality. Do the fun stuff that you can never do (unless your insane) e.g. GTA3.
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Mentor
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 16:19
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a game is somewhere you would rather be, thats what creates the immersion, you might think thats crazy, who wants to be stranded on Stroggos with loads of lethal aliens after your ass, but thats just it, this is your chance to be a hero, you can blow any sod who gets in your way clean off the face of the planet, no trouble with legalities or morality, these dudes are just plain bad and NOT open to reason unless it comes from the barrel of a weapon, plus you get to save the Earth too, how many players spent some time trying to get the prison block inmates out of their cells?, thats immersion, some place you want to be and that gives you a chance to do what you want, a game does not lecture or dictate your actions, you may have an objective, but you don`t want to be ordered about, a good game allows you to make your own decisions, it does not have AI that just blatantly cheats to keep up with the player, players are not fools, just crushing them by giving the AI more weapons or better does not create enjoyment in a game, you need to be treated fairly, being beaten gradualy by a good opponent is more enjoyable than being wiped out by a massive counter attack the enemy could not possibly have mounted or walking all over the place with no worthwhile opposition at all, games have to be somewhere you want to be, that treats you fairly but challenges you, thats what good games are IMO.

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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 16:32
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Dont think its that complex guys. My definition would be:

A software application with some form of user interaction and an emphasis on entertainment.

You dont see AI or an emmersive environment in MineSweeper.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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indi
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 16:45
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An electronic entertainment computer application for homosapiens.
a repetitive finite abstract interactive simulation of a realtime/fantasy event or situation.

http://www.lunarpixel.com
It's already tomorrow in Australia
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 16:48
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uumm! I would hardly call minesweeper immersive either, does anybody actualy play that errrr...rubbish , I opened it once to see what it was and practicaly fell asleep after thirty seconds, I like puzzles but that comes under my "delete and forget" rule

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 17:36 Edited at: 29th Aug 2003 17:37
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Isn't that a bit of an odd definition?

Following it, pong isn't a game.

Tetris isn't a game.

Asteroids isn't a game.

Pac-Man isn't a game!

In my opinion, a computer game is something interactive that runs on a computer and gives the player an enjoyable time.

Interactive is the operative word here. That's what seperates games from movies! (Yes, this IS a jab at Final Fantasy. They are not games, they are movies. Movies with poor graphics.)


Edit-- And, my, grammer is so, very bad.

--Mouse

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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 17:49
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hehehe. I hate the final fantasy system too ... all except the old gameboy games like Final Fantasty Adventure. etc.

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Mentor
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 18:08 Edited at: 29th Aug 2003 18:09
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I think of puzzle games as pastimes, they are engrossing, but you don`t have immersion with a puzzle, I can drop tetris at the drop of a hat if the phone rings, if it was Unreal I would ignore it or maybe get to a good save point before responding, I don`t know that the puzzle type games count as immersive rather than engrossing, as for asteroids/pacman, they where at the time immersive, I have seen players flinch when they died "in game", but nowdays they tend to be more in the "pastime" catagory, the concepts shift, if todays entertainment was at the level of the Matrix then Doom III or HalfLife II would be the pastimes, it`s case of what gives you the most.

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Arrow
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 18:55 Edited at: 29th Aug 2003 18:55
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A) Final Fantasy rules (except for 8)
B) The old FF games on the Gameboy are really part of the Secert of Mana saga, they were renamed when released outside of Japan.
C) A game is anything that require user imput and is designed to be amusing to one or more persons. Video games are a much more defined branch of games.


Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Interested in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 20:56
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You asked what ARE games though - not what defines a game as being immersive. Tetris is a game, Unreal is a game - you cannot single out one or the other just because of the attention span they induce inside of you. They're both still games.

A game is quite simply something interactive that provides entertainment. Something that reacts to user input in order to heighten the entertainment value (typically, anyway).

If you want to talk immersion, etc - you should be asking what makes a GOOD game

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
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the_winch
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 21:10
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Some people can be just as immersed in tetris as others are in unreal etc. and I am sure some people like nothing better than a game of minesweeper.
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 21:15
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it depends how you define games, for me some games are trivia, not realy games but little toys, easily picked up and discarded when you tire of them, REAL games make it seem like a good idea to have the coffee maker next to the monitor and a stack of pizzas and biscuits to hand to last you through the weekend.
in other words there are games and there are GAMES, I assumed we are talking the important games, not the trivia you find anywhere but those that matter, like Civ or Doom, in their time they where THE game some of those still are, Civilisation has no awesome graphics, but the game is still a classic and after 5 minutes you are hooked and may only surface when someone calls round to see if you are still alive and leans on the doorbell for 5 minutes to make sure you answer (not that this has EVER happened to me )
"other" games are those that fill an empty few minutes when you are at a loose end, the real games are those that you spend fifty seven hours telling St Peter about when he asks what you did with your life

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 21:35
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a computer game is simply a form of recreational activity in this case in the medium of digital entertainment with rules defining the boundries allowing for someone to achieve a given outcome.

your welcome to lookup oxford or webster's definitions of a game but thats pretty much what it'll say... and a computer game is simply a digital version of a game, which is why the interactive TV games are also called computer games.

as long as you can achieve a given outcome ie Win or Loose, then technically it is a game.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 21:48
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The game is in your mind - Video game or otherwise. If I enjoy chasing my cats around my house with a spade-shovel then that to me is a "game". A game is perceived regardless of what the intent of the developer/designer was - video game or otherwise.

remind me to stop chasing my cats around my house with a spade-shovel.



-RUST-
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Critters
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 21:52
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Games are fun, gives you a chance to do the impossible!! hehe

http://www.jaxteam.co.uk
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 22:12
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chasing my cats areound the house with a big water gun is my kinda game. Spade shovels are just mean.

Comin soon: MegatonCreations.tk
Now all we need is an actual game!
Also: reviewing the games no one else bothered to
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Arrow
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 22:16 Edited at: 29th Aug 2003 22:16
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See point C of my last post. if someone derectly or inderectly effects the situation, and is a musing to a least one person, it is a game. This covers everything to mind games to masterminding anothers untimely death.

Ever seen the movie "The Game"?


Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Interested in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 06:24
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see cattle you've illistrated my point
you see running around the house scaring the crap out of your cats as a game ... they might not and i doubt niether would the RSPCA

moralities of the situation aside, when your chasing the cats around the aim is to make them run so you can keep chasing them ... prefferably probably to make them a little more than scared and hesitant about the best hiding places - you have a goal/objective so do the cats ... the rules for the cats are to seemingly survive, and for you to scare the poop out of them (no doubt why your doing it with a shovel) and i hope not to actually harm them.

but still the game has rules and boundries, if people didn't stick to the rules like the cats decided to just let you hit them - then suddenly the game wouldn't be so much fun and you'd stop.

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koshi
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 07:16 Edited at: 30th Aug 2003 08:20
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lol, "scared the poop out of them" ^_^

Famous last words -
Pull the pin and count to what?
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gbuilder
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 08:01
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Life is a Game.

gbuilder.

AMD900mhz, 256mb Ram, 64mb GForce2 MX400 Graphics card, Windows ME.
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 08:19 Edited at: 30th Aug 2003 08:20
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A game is a way to escape from the drudgery of real life for a couple of hours

..and then, when the game is over...

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 16:02
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Raven

very true, and I disagree with no one, but if the cats stopped running and just let me hit them, then that could become a new game:
Hit cats until dead, open window, use shovel to fling poop and cat carcasses at passers-by. So the game hasn't ended, it just changed, because like I said If I percieve it as such, then it is a game regardless of the content.

(And btw I love my cats and don't chase them around with shovels)
LOL

-RUST-
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Damokles
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 01:09
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you could even play with MS Word : you fill a line with "q"s, then one person is hitting the <BACKSPACE> as fast as possible and another person will be pushing on the q button.
If the line is delete then player number one wins, if you see a second line of "q", player two has won.
That is also a game

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
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Ian T
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 02:24
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'a computer game is simply a form of recreational activity in this case in the medium of digital entertainment with rules defining the boundries allowing for someone to achieve a given outcome.'

I don't agree with the last part... a lot of old arcade classics had no 'given outcome' other than the satisfaction of victory. They didn't even have high score lists until Asteroids.

Cattle-- a video game is in your mind, and so are your five senses, where is the big difference?

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball
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MicroMan
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 03:00
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To me, the perfect game is Tetris. I really admire the programmer's (Pajitnov?) sense of elegance and simplicity. There's not a lot there. No fancy AI, no fancy graphics. But still... it's pure gameplay with building tension and a sense of pressure.

The marketing department must have had a nightmare trying to sell the game, because any screenshot on the back of the box would have turned potential buyers away.

But still, it's pure game essence, reduced to perfection. I just have to take off my hat to him that made it (though I don't wear a hat).

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Ian T
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 03:39
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' I really admire the programmer's (Pajitnov?) sense of elegance and simplicity. There's not a lot there. No fancy AI, no fancy graphics.

Er... that would be due to the technical limiations of the time

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball
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MicroMan
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 06:32
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Technical limitations? I wouldn't think so. In 1986, That was the year after when Alexey Pazhitnov created Tetris, I bought my first Amiga computer, an Amiga 1000. I abandoned my C64 then.

That the PC was a clunky thing, at best, is beside the point because games creation mostly wasn't done on the PC then. The big games machines were the BBC in the UK, Amiga and Atari ST in the rest of Europe, and of course C64 everywhere.

Tetris is simple even for them. Also, remember that Dark Basic is a sort of cross-time-port of an Amiga software package called AMOS. AMOS even had a 3d add-on package, so I guess it was almost Dark Basic v.01. Or this is AMOS v20.0 or something.

Anyway, it doesn't detract anything from what I say. It's a perfect example of a game where everything is balanced and fits, however you look at it.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Critters
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 17:17
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I think tetris would have to be the most simplest most addictive game in the world, that anyone can play. But spend ages mastering. I agree with micro man, technical limitations were not that limited at that particuar time. Simple stuff

http://www.jaxteam.co.uk - under construction
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Scraggle
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 23:19 Edited at: 31st Aug 2003 23:28
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Here is a good game for you.

Write a thread titled something like .... oh I don't know .... maybe.... 'What do you think games are?' and then sit back and laugh at all the answers.

Top fun!

I have to say though - I really like cattle_rustlers idea of a game that was an answer that I did sit back and laugh at!

Nine lives to choose from and I get stuck with this one!
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Scraggle
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 23:21
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Quote: "In my opinion, a computer game is something interactive that runs on a computer and gives the player an enjoyable time."


That sounds like a forum to me. which backs up my previous thread.

Nine lives to choose from and I get stuck with this one!
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Dazzag
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Oh man. The only thing that was played more than Doom in University was Minesweeper. Brilliant. Don't knock it till you play it properly. And then go apes**t when you fail on the last block cos there was no "mathematical" way of deciding which was correct (total guess at the end situation). Was the hardest setup possible and it took you nearly an hour to get there, and you forgot you were in the middle of a lecture.... sigh....

Oh. And the definition of a computer game? It is a game. And it is played on a computer. Ok?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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