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Geek Culture / Windows 7: Worse than Vista

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David R
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:00 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 02:01
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Quote: "MacOSX = Unix with pretty pictures taped on.








Flame war ensue."



Windows = DOS with pretty pictures taped on.

That's how sound a comparison you've made

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Satchmo
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:02 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 18:02
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No Removed, NT is not DOS. I was being sarcastic btw, OSX is nice.

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Sigh
19
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:20
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Quote: "Still not seeing any valid arguments against Vista or Windows 7, only complaints echoing from the Dark Ages of OS history."


Ok then, let's take a look

From microsoft's site:

"The minimum hardware requirements for Windows XP Home Edition are:

* Pentium 233-megahertz (MHz) processor or faster (300 MHz is recommended)
* At least 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM (128 MB is recommended)
* At least 1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk "


"The minimum hardware requirements for Windows Vista Home Basic are:
* 1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor
* 512 MB of system memory
* 20 GB hard drive with at least 15 GB of available space"


So, tell me, what code within an OS needs a 5x increase in CPU clock speed, 8x increase in RAM, and 10x increase in HDD space to work properly? You know of course, your average user runs applications that are so intense and powerful that they need 1GHz and 512MB..."wow sir, that's one helluva OpenOffice spreadsheet you have there" or "good grief, surfing facebook and checking my email really eats up my CPU and RAM". Of course, it could be argued that you need a speed computer and lots of RAM for gaming/game dev/CAD/etc...well duh, but the requirements are for the application not the OS (or at least should be).

I assure you, the root cause of those increased CPU/RAM req's isn't more code, drivers, etc (HDD space is another story). It's caused mostly by unneeded bloat.

But what do I know, I've never written an OS from scratch, and I'm just some lowly ASM programmer.

Fighting the War Against Misused Apostrophes since 2002! Stop by for a chat! [IXE]Nateholio on irc.maxgaming.net:6667 #GarageGames
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Outscape
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:24
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nuff said
simple, easy, no hassle



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Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:53 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 02:59
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Quote: "I have a laptop with vista installed. My friend just bought a laptop with 7 installed. Other than slight visual differences, they seem identical. Everything was basically the same. My system is older than his, but it seemed to me that it was just as fast."

And so begins the journey from Windows 3.0
Before we fix the bugs in the current system, let's release a new one.
If we only change the visuals then we can blame the tech problems on the version being new, even though they are old problems and we never fixed them.

Quote: "And who is this girl? How the hell does she represent Windows? Windows is for greasy nerds, not girls."

But mom, I have to get the new Windows because the start button is prettier!

When all you are doing is changing the look and feel of the functions you already have then those girls are your market.
Yeah, each version has a few new features but few were really worthy of a new version. (could have been upgrades)
The greasy nerds know its a scam and sticks with what they have, hence the large number of XP users.

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Sigh
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:57
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Indeed Conjured, well said.

Fighting the War Against Misused Apostrophes since 2002! Stop by for a chat! [IXE]Nateholio on irc.maxgaming.net:6667 #GarageGames
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 06:07
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Quote: "From microsoft's site:

"The minimum hardware requirements for Windows XP Home Edition are:

* Pentium 233-megahertz (MHz) processor or faster (300 MHz is recommended)
* At least 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM (128 MB is recommended)
* At least 1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk "


"The minimum hardware requirements for Windows Vista Home Basic are:
* 1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor
* 512 MB of system memory
* 20 GB hard drive with at least 15 GB of available space""



Anyone who puts XP on a system with less than 512 megs of ram is insane. That being said, anyone who puts Vista on anything less than 2 gigs is crazy.

Microsoft's requirements are absolute bare minimum. XP is useless with less than 256 megs of ram and totally chugs with only that much.

I still say Win2000 is the best out there if you don't mind the crappy graphics.

MISoft Studios - Silver-Dawn Gorilda is lost!

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david w
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 06:44
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yes conjured, well said.
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 09:27 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 09:27
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Quote: "So, tell me, what code within an OS needs a 5x increase in CPU clock speed, 8x increase in RAM, and 10x increase in HDD space to work properly? You know of course, your average user runs applications that are so intense and powerful that they need 1GHz and 512MB..."wow sir, that's one helluva OpenOffice spreadsheet you have there" or "good grief, surfing facebook and checking my email really eats up my CPU and RAM". Of course, it could be argued that you need a speed computer and lots of RAM for gaming/game dev/CAD/etc...well duh, but the requirements are for the application not the OS (or at least should be)."


I don't know why it needs a 5x faster speed CPU, but the bottom line is that it is more insane for someone nowadays to have less than 1Ghz CPU speed or even 512mb RAM. Even most mice (mouses) are 2.4ghz in speed (wireless mice).

It's time to let go of the past!

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 12:08 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 12:13
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Quote: "Even most mice (mouses) are 2.4ghz in speed"


I dropped science at GCSE and I know that's wrong. They use a 2.4gHz EM wave to transmit, but that doesn't mean they have 2.4gHz processors!

...please, please tell me you're joking!

Quote: "It's time to let go of the past!"


Time to embrace the future.



Athlon64 2.7gHz->OC 3.9gHz, 31C, MSi 9500GT->OC 1gHz core/2gHz memory, 48C, 4Gb DDR2 667, 500Gb Seagate + 80Gb Maxtor + 40Gb Maxtor = 620Gb, XP Home
Air cooled, total cost £160
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Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 12:41
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I think the moral of the story is don't judge an OS after just a single day of use.
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Syncaidius
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 14:25
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I've been on the RC version of Win 7 for over 3 months now and that alone is much better than vista with SP1 installed.

Those who say Windows 7 is worse have either judged it for the worse after using it for 5 minutes or have never tried it before.

The good thing is, I can still use the RC until march next year.


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David R
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 15:33 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 15:35
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Quote: "Anyone who puts XP on a system with less than 512 megs of ram is insane. "


XP runs fine on 96MB of RAM I know - I used it like that for a few years!

Quote: "No stfu, NT is not DOS. I was being sarcastic btw, OSX is nice"


I was being sarcastic too, fool. NT isn't DOS in the same way OS X's Mach kernel is nothing like System 5 UNIX

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Seppuku Arts
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 15th Nov 2009 15:58 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 16:00
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Quote: "Anyone who puts XP on a system with less than 512 megs of ram is insane"


Yup...my Dad's laptop has 677mhz and 128mb - it's an old thing, but XP just fails on it - the most it's good for is Microsoft Word, if you use the Internet and MS word at the same time you're asking for trouble. Which is just as well as that's all he needs it for, but I keep telling him to stick 98 on there or get a hold of a copy of 2000.

It runs much better without any internet security, but he checks his emails too, so it's not worth the sacrifice. So maybe the requirements don't take into account that you need Internet Security or that the computer may be used for the internet.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 16:02
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Quote: "XP runs fine on 96MB of RAM"


All down to your drivers. XP without any drivers installed runs at 85-95mb of RAM from what I can tell with nothing running. Install nForce and suddenly we're idling at 280...

Athlon64 2.7gHz->OC 3.9gHz, 31C, MSi 9500GT->OC 1gHz core/2gHz memory, 48C, 4Gb DDR2 667, 500Gb Seagate + 80Gb Maxtor + 40Gb Maxtor = 620Gb, XP Home
Air cooled, total cost £160
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Fallout
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 18:21
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I need to have a quick Windows 7 winge, so this is as good as place as any ...

None of my old stuff works. My sound card software no longer works, so I have to use the built in Windows software, which loses me a lot of features. The updated Creative driver for Win 7 means the card works, but constantly throws up errors.

My music software works, but only just ... now recording is full of crippling sound artifacts, making it impossible to use. Apparently I shouldn't run two instances of the same software, according to Win7, but I have to to play/record simulataneously, but then Win7 throws a fit.

Windows Media Player 12 aspect ratio change doesnt work. So I can't play a lot of my movies without watching them stretched.

Apart from that, it seems to be relatively ok. But I am very disappointed. The 'Compatibility Modes' never work with Windows. It's almost like there is no code behind them except 'Do_Crash[]' calls.

I'm downloading the XP virtual machine now. Hopefully it'll solve some of my issues.

I'm not having any fun with Windows7.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 18:35
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Does the Vista driver not work? I had a similar problem with using RealTek's Windows 7 audio driver - every few minutes my built-in laptop speakers would fuzz when playing out audio. I downloaded my Windows Vista audio drivers instead and all is fine and dandy.

I'd probably put it down to the driver coders.

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David R
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 18:46 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 18:50
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Sound issues were another set of problems I had with Vista that were never resolved -granted, I had some crappy C-Media soundcard in the machine that was running Vista, but it would randomly switch to mono and back to stereo every few minutes. The problem still exists even in the current drivers (or rather, they never updated the drivers since the initial Vista ones with that problem )

I'm guessing MS may have made it too complex/difficult to pump a decent audio driver, judging by the amount of screwy drivers there are (and the fact that XP/2K drivers for the same card are absolutely flawless)

Quote: "Apart from that, it seems to be relatively ok. But I am very disappointed. The 'Compatibility Modes' never work with Windows. It's almost like there is no code behind them except 'Do_Crash[]' calls.
"


I think it's because compatibility mode is only really supposed to cater for minor changes between certain API calls / the expected return values.

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Fallout
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 19:08 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 19:31
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I might have a bash at using a Vista driver. Cheers Mr Sep. To be honest though, I think the hardware issues are mostly locked down now. The soundcard works in games, and I can use the majority of the features via the contrived Windows 7 settings panels. It's software that I'm having the most problems with now. Any software that seems to get dirty with the hardware upsets Windows 7.

I have XP mode now though. Let's see how that fares.

Edit: Nope, XP mode appears to have no power to communicate with the hardware. All the 'devices' are stooges, and not your actual devices. You can try and update the drivers, but the drivers can't detect the hardware. Therefore, any software that needs specific hardware won't work, nor can you setup specific hardware preferences. In my case, I could install and run my audio software, but I wouldn't be able to select my inputs as the recording device, since they don't exist in the virtual machine (just some stand in SoundBlaster 16 driver).

Now I'm properly screwed!

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 03:04
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Quote: "XP runs fine on 96MB of RAM I know - I used it like that for a few years!"


Well I've seen it on PC's with 256 megs of ram and it craps out with more than 1 or 2 things running, and you can't convince me otherwise... these were freshly formatted and clean installs, majority of the drivers were Windows defaults. I wouldn't recommend using XP with less than 256 megs and I would suggest you have 512 if you plan to run anything more than the internet.

MISoft Studios - Silver-Dawn Gorilda is lost!

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Leadwerks
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Posted: 18th Nov 2009 06:56
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Some of the things I complained about are not a problem, and some other problems have appeared. It is quite stable, and that has never been a complaint.
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 18th Nov 2009 08:34
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Nex, I do have a netbook, and it is 1.6ghz, which is more than enough. I have a friend who has the same one and he Win7s it.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 18th Nov 2009 10:53
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Quote: "I do have a netbook, and it is 1.6ghz"


An Atom at 1.6 is about equivilent to a real processor at 500mHz.

Athlon64 2.7gHz->OC 3.9gHz, 31C, MSi 9500GT->OC 1gHz core/2gHz memory, 48C, 4Gb DDR2 667, 500Gb Seagate + 80Gb Maxtor + 40Gb Maxtor = 620Gb, XP Home
Air cooled, total cost £160
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 19th Nov 2009 03:55
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Netbooks?
Netbooks are a way to market the past as the future right now!

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jrowe
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 13:03
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Quote: "I need to have a quick Windows 7 winge, so this is as good as place as any ...

None of my old stuff works. My sound card software no longer works, so I have to use the built in Windows software, which loses me a lot of features. The updated Creative driver for Win 7 means the card works, but constantly throws up errors.

My music software works, but only just ... now recording is full of crippling sound artifacts, making it impossible to use. Apparently I shouldn't run two instances of the same software, according to Win7, but I have to to play/record simulataneously, but then Win7 throws a fit.

Windows Media Player 12 aspect ratio change doesnt work. So I can't play a lot of my movies without watching them stretched.

Apart from that, it seems to be relatively ok. But I am very disappointed. The 'Compatibility Modes' never work with Windows. It's almost like there is no code behind them except 'Do_Crash[]' calls.

I'm downloading the XP virtual machine now. Hopefully it'll solve some of my issues.

I'm not having any fun with Windows7. "


I don't think this is necessarily MS's fault, it might be Creative's. They have a history of purposefully braking their drivers when a new OS comes along to force you to upgrade. At least they did when vista came out, and threatened legal action against a driver-modder who fixed them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2008/apr/02/danielkthreatenedforfixing

For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.
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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 19:55
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@Anyone- I am intending to upgrade to Windows 7 are there any real differences in memory usage over Windows 7 to Windows XP? Thanks fo rthe help.

I plan on a buying a 1TB hard drive, 8GB memory HP PC soon and was wondering some advantges of maybe a DEll XPS to a HP. I have done some research and HP's video cards downright suck, but with a monitor and computer together the HP's total cost would be much less.

Thanks for any help,

Beastegargoyle

My online game portfolio and work samples [a href]www.jaredgingerich.com[/a href]
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 21:05
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Yeah, advice would be BUILD.

BUILD.

Athlon64 2.7gHz->OC 3.9gHz, 31C, MSi 9500GT->OC 1gHz core/2gHz memory, 48C, 4Gb DDR2 667, 500Gb Seagate + 80Gb Maxtor + 40Gb Maxtor = 620Gb, XP Home
Air cooled, total cost £160
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Asteric
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 22:09 Edited at: 24th Nov 2009 22:09
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Cant well just get along children?

Im fine, i have 2000, XP, Vista,Ubuntu,OSX Leopard and W7 all available when i need them, sorted

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 22:23
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Okay, so I've been using Windows 7 for two weeks now and haven't encountered any issues at all! I've only had to use the Task Manager once, and that was to close the slow-as-heck FireFox. I absolutely love the way that Windows 7 works, it just makes sense! The library system was easy to figure out, and it makes navigation of folders SO much better!

There is only one slight annoyance, and it may just be my computer; sometimes, the lower-half of my taskbar will flicker and show the wallpaper underneath it. It usually happens where a window was just open and moved unexpectedly, and sometimes on one of the icons of an open window. Anybody else have that happen?

-CoffeeCoder

Formerly known as Yodaman Jer
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gamerboots
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 00:27
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Quote: "1 day is NOT enough to test out a OS completely"

I totally agree with this. I tested my vista out for about 10 days non-stop and everything that could be wrong was ! From bad drivers that slowed disk access to a crawl to nothing working except for the great circle ( you know that wonderful green thing that circles until it unlocks and actually does something) In all honestly, I Never felt more ripped in my life then when I purchased this pile of garbage that was enclosed in a steel box (why not just sale people a steel case , it might actually be useful then )
Infact, I cant say the words right now to explain my feelings toward vista because they would not be acceptable here, but you get the idea as my love for vista on a scale of 1 to 10 would be minus 2000000000000 !

I am however certainly glad about all the good reviews here because it appears that there have been some nice improvements and that means that I will definately be checking this out in the near future. (I'll let you know about it when I do ! )

----------------
Gamerboots~
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