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Geek Culture / Unreal Engine 3 is now free to use!

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 13th Nov 2009 21:13 Edited at: 13th Nov 2009 21:31
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Quote: "UDK Passes 50,000 Users in One Week!"

Just wait until you see the total number of downloads after the first month. (the word is just getting out)

Quote: "Hourences has put together a massive tutorial on the steps needed to take your UDK game from scratch to packaging. "

Awesome.
These will really help.

I was up until 5am trying to import a texture successfully, only to discover this morning that the import failure was due to a corrupt install, and another corrupt re-install.
Who is dumb enough to try the same thing 3 times in desperation?
I am (I had tried everything else), but the 3rd install worked so yeeehaw!

YAY
Textures!

Imagine how frustrating it was trying every possible file size and format option only to discover a corrupt install.
I guess today is my lucky day!
Friday the 13th chase chase chase chase run run run run

PS
I did the bots thing too, that was cool.
Thanks

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fallen one
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Posted: 13th Nov 2009 23:00 Edited at: 13th Nov 2009 23:00
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Also Ill ask this again as it was ignored.

Has this UDK got everything in for a multiplayer game, like ut3/4k did, or has it been ripped out and you will have to code it in, also if its in, does it come with gametypes, ie death match, capture the flag, assualt, etc, etc? Though perhaps some of you are a bit green, so perhaps you just plain dont know, I used the earlier unreal engines for several years, so I take it for granted.

Blummin Pervert http://www.avantivitastudios.com/
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 13th Nov 2009 23:18
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No idea. I'm using the full UT3 so I see no reason to bother downloading UDK as essentially I've already got it.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 14th Nov 2009 04:20 Edited at: 14th Nov 2009 04:38
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Quote: "Has this UDK got everything in for a multiplayer game, like ut3/4k did, or has it been ripped out and you will have to code it in, also if its in, does it come with gametypes, ie death match, capture the flag, assualt, etc, etc? "

YES, it does networking.
Here is a link if you want to take a look at the UDK Features.

Quote: "You are permitted to use UT code, but not assets, in a commercial UDK app. ...Steve Polge UDK Forum Administrator"

Thanks the stars TGC lets us use FPSC models packs for other engines.
Better yet, Thanks TGC!

With 50,000 users the first week, just imagine the demand for Unreal ready models.
Now for the conversions to psk and psa, grrrrr. (if UDK could import X files then we'd be set)

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Nov 2009 05:01
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If any of you genius's out there figure out how to program the AI via Kismet to create bots that spawn from a trigger AND have their AI in tact, then please message me.

I tried for weeks trying to achieve this but it came down to this:

Obviously I could get bots to spawn as the game starts, follow the waypoints and deviate from them to follow me around and attack me, just as a normal Unreal game happens. Simple task. Most tutorials cover this.

I could get bots to spawn via a trigger and shoot at me, but they wouldn't move. They were very dumb.

Bottom line? Triggered bots = clueless. Spawned bots = intelligent.

I would really like to get this figured out one day because it would take the Engine past death matches and into single player games.

Of course, all of this probably requires code. But 4 months ago, there was little to know documentation on the engine. The UE3 Books on amazon weren't even out yet, but even those don't contain the info I want.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 14th Nov 2009 05:19 Edited at: 14th Nov 2009 05:23
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Quote: "If any of you genius's out there figure out how to program the AI via Kismet to create bots that spawn from a trigger AND have their AI in tact, then please message me.

I tried for weeks trying to achieve this but it came down to this:"

That is the first thing I tried after getting the bots in and working with the console command "addbots 16", yet I failed at Kismet too.
I'll let you know if successful and you let me know if you are, but hopefully someone can enlighten us.

@Bond1
I sent you an email to the gmail one in your profile.
Please, let me know if you got it or if I need to use your other email address.
Thanks

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Sigh
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Posted: 14th Nov 2009 05:54
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I don't play games like Unreal, but the gfx look awesome. I think I might have to download it and mess around a bit.

Fighting the War Against Misused Apostrophes since 2002! Stop by for a chat! [IXE]Nateholio on irc.maxgaming.net:6667 #GarageGames
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fallen one
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Posted: 14th Nov 2009 16:59
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Quote: "Quote: "Has this UDK got everything in for a multiplayer game, like ut3/4k did, or has it been ripped out and you will have to code it in, also if its in, does it come with gametypes, ie death match, capture the flag, assualt, etc, etc? "
YES, it does networking."

I dont mean the networking, I mean the code in it for the MP gametypes the unreal games had.

Blummin Pervert http://www.avantivitastudios.com/
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Nov 2009 20:12 Edited at: 14th Nov 2009 20:43
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Quote: "That is the first thing I tried after getting the bots in and working with the console command "addbots 16", yet I failed at Kismet too.
I'll let you know if successful and you let me know if you are, but hopefully someone can enlighten us."


Here's my notes on Kismet.



Here's a video of the result. Not sure how much you'll be able to deduce from it, but it's basically what I said above. EDIT: http://screencast.com/t/OGE2NGJjMT

Now that the UDK is out, I'll keep my eyes and ears open for anyone figuring out advanced AI. If I find out anything, I'll let you know. I suspect it'll require some coding, but I'm really not sure. Kismet is very powerful and very cool. I sort of doubt it's lacking.

EDIT again:

I guess the problem would lie in the destination node. I think it follows that rule too closely, to the point of not deviating from the waypoint in order to follow me. In some cases game play cases, this is fine. If I want to spawn an enemy in a window on the third story of a building, I don't want him moving around, I just want him shooting. However, if I have a patrol unit that the player runs passed, that unit needs to break ranks and chase after the player. The AI is really limiting as it is!

Here's a pic showing how I set up the spawn. You can see the 4 spawn points in the back, followed by the 6 stand alone waypoints and the weapons depot (which counts as a 7th waypoint).


EDIT again: I'm just editing away today!

I found this: http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=707329

Coding it is. I'm not going to into that just yet, but at least I know how it's done in the future.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 00:14 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 00:19
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Quote: "Kismet is very powerful and very cool. I sort of doubt it's lacking."

Yeah, it's very cool.

Quote: "Here's my notes on Kismet. "

I couldn't play the Video, but the kismet screenie looks very interesting.

I have been playing with lights, and if they don't want to toggle its because you have to RightClick>Convert Light>Convert to Toggleable

Then they will work, but that was not shown in the video tutorial.

Your first light placed is dominate like the sun and it defaults as toggleable but the rest are point lights and have to be set for it.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:14
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When you mean "Your lights" are you talking about my scene or just stating what you've learned. I'm confused how we got onto lights lol.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 15th Nov 2009 02:38 Edited at: 15th Nov 2009 02:44
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Quote: "When you mean "Your lights" are you talking about my scene or just stating what you've learned. I'm confused how we got onto lights lol."

I'm talking about lights in general.
We got there by bringing up the Kismet.
I wanted to share something that I learned in hopes of helping someone.
It was frustrating for me to follow the video tutorial and end with failure. (only worked for him because there was one light in the scene)
So, it was just friendly advice for those people wanting to toggle multiple lights in Kismet.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 00:53 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 02:46
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Latest project for college:


It's all constructed from modular static meshes so I just throw some walls and a floor in and *bang* halfway detailed room.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 01:11 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 01:13
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Looks great! What's it look like with the lighting rebuilt? This video was my first attempt inside Unreal Engine 3. Did that in about 8 weeks with all custom assets. It was kind of a long time, but it was my first time with the engine so I had to learn it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7s29PtNhhg

PS: Has anyone successfully cooked out a level? Or is that not needed with the UDK anymore. I had so much trouble with that using the old editor.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 01:31
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Well, that is properly lightmapped. It ALWAYS says I have to rebuild lighting, even if I just have.

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Quik
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 02:22
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too big pic, i have to scroll from side to side too see it allXD

cool though


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
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demons breath
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 02:44 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 02:45
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Nex, looks very good but I don't suppose you could scale it down a wee smidgen? Too big for my screen...

"The fools may crash down upon us in thunderous waves, but we shall Jeku slap them back from whence they came"
-BiggAdd Oct 28th 2009
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 08:28 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 08:58
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Quote: "Latest project for college:"

Very nice.

Quote: "This video was my first attempt inside Unreal Engine 3. Did that in about 8 weeks with all custom assets."

Nice
I have about one week into the UDK now, and here is what I have... (no content is mine )
I did manage to get Bond's Boss Commando in there as a skeletal mesh with his texture intact, but I have yet to animate him.
So basically, I am still just learning the basics, like making terrain and skyspheres, and making light sources and switches, etc.
There is so much to learn it is a bit overwhelming, so it will take awhile.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 10:55
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is it better than dark basic?

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 12:48
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Depends entirely on what you're using it for.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 15:44
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I've never used FPS Creator X10, but after a few hours of listening to Epic's Video Tutorials, I wouldn't be too hesitant to bet against it. Try it out PAGAN! You have nothing to lose

@Conjured: I never messed with animation inside the Unreal Environment. I bet it's in one of the books I posted on the first page of this thread though.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 05:31
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too bad my only working computer now is a netbook

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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tatts
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Posted: 19th Nov 2009 23:42
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I just picked up the first volume of Mastering Unreal Technology from the local bookstore. Turns out you get the full version of Unreal tournament 3 with it. Going to order the 2nd volume next week and the 3rd volume is going to be available in December sometime.
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Nov 2009 21:47
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Yeah, I highly recommend those books, however I don't own any myself. I've flipped through them though. I owned the book for the UT2003 Engine, not this one. I like the way the books cover the topics. They are usually pretty clear on how to do things and I like the writing style.

When you get the third book tatts, let me know if you spot anything about programming the AI differently.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 00:07
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I personally recommend this guy, his tutorials have helped me out loads:

http://www.youtube.com/user/raven67854#p/u/12/GTP4TDBGWsQ

Violence isn't the answer, it's the question...
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tatts
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 02:09
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@CoffeeGrunt, I've been through his tutorials already. And yes they are most certainly helpful.

@Sid, This first volume covers a lot. and I am definately looking forward to the other two. It cost a few pennies but is well worth the price I paid. As far as how the topics are covered...Excellent so far, I find the book very clear and like that it covers abit of everything to get a good looking level with particles, animations and a lot more. I'm at page 84 of 778 pages and have learned a fair bit already. Very glad I decided to call the book store. And thanks for pointing this book out Sid.
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 02:50
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Not sure what sort of deal the bookstore is swinging you, but you can buy them all on amazon for $100. I think even if you bought the last two together they'd give you a bundle deal. Not sure. Oh well, after shipping and everything it probably would cost the same anyway.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 06:15
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Quote: "I personally recommend this guy"

Yeah, he's "alright".

Seriously though, I have only watched a couple so far, but they have been very helpful.
I went a step further for his water and got pretty good results from his tutorial... (see attached video)

The video is low res but you get the idea.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 11:19
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Nice! How'd you get it to use an oxygen supply?

Violence isn't the answer, it's the question...
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 20:14 Edited at: 21st Nov 2009 20:15
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Quote: "Nice! How'd you get it to use an oxygen supply?"

Thanks
It was easy; just set the damage type of the PhysicsVolume of the volume as shown in the attached image...

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Xarshi
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 06:31
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I have a problem with them saying you are able to use the Unreal Engine 3 for free. I feel like they should just say "Unreal Editor" as opposed to engine, as engine applies you will be able to program within C++ and not a slow scripting language they devised.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 12:43 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 12:46
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But... that IS the engine. Mirror's Edge would have been written in that scripting language. UT3 was. GoW was. There might have been minor, minor engine tweaks here and there but I see no reason why things cannot be achieved with the scripting language they provide. I think it's a bit of a mess, but then again, I don't like OOP.

No developer anywhere who licensed the fully blown commercial engine got the source code either, I'd imagine.

When it comes to raw power contests, C/++ would absolutely wipe the floor with UnrealScript. The former, I think I read, would execute commands 20x quicker than the latter. But commands in US do 10-15x as much, so it's not a bad tradeoff. Not to mention that a lot of the low-level stuff such as pathfinding and graphics and loading and saving is all handled by C++ code external to UnrealScript, meaning only a small volume of UnrealScript actually gets executed.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 16:16 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 16:21
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It is true that you can accomplish something within what they give you, however, if you wish to have some functionality of a certain library from C++ (aka really any havok product) you would not be able to.

I'm not talking about source code.

And about how much the scripts do - that is entirely up to the programmer. C++ is better than US, that's that. I do realize, however, that one would not want to compile their entire game for one minor tweak. I had this problem when I was programming an fps for my schools game competition in C++. It would take a good five minutes to compile, and that was only when I had the characters, weapon system, and gui implemented. So obviously when I got all the vehicles and more advanced features implemented it took a while to compile. So that is honestly the only legitimate reason I see for using US over C++, but at that point, you can just go and code the files in C++ since you probably won't be changing any scripts after you release the game to the public. After that, if need be, you would just be able to release patches. Not that hard.

Also - why do you dislike OOP? It is probably the single most convenient thing I have used in any programming language. There are many more possibilities when using OOP as opposed to not using it. When not using OOP things get very very messy very very quickly.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 17:04 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 17:10
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Quote: "I have a problem with them saying you are able to use the Unreal Engine 3 for free."

Then don't use it.

Quote: " I think it's a bit of a mess, but then again, I don't like OOP."

I never liked OOP either.

Quote: "Also - why do you dislike OOP? It is probably the single most convenient thing I have used in any programming language. There are many more possibilities when using OOP as opposed to not using it. When not using OOP things get very very messy very very quickly. "

That is a matter of opinion.
OOP was around in the 1960's but never used heavily until the 1990's because of it was deemed "too complex" by programmers of that era.
Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP, which explains the numerous bugs in most programs written in OOP languages like C++.
Structured programming like COBOL is the least messy, and therfore the most stable, which is why is was used heavily for business applications.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 19:38 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 19:40
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Quote: "I have a problem with them saying you are able to use the Unreal Engine 3 for free"


I lol'd.

Quote: "A game engine is a software system designed for the creation and development of video games. There are many game engines that are designed to work on video game consoles and desktop operating systems such as Microsoft Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X. The core functionality typically provided by a game engine includes a rendering engine (“renderer”) for 2D or 3D graphics, a physics engine or collision detection (and collision response), sound, scripting, animation, artificial intelligence, networking, streaming, memory management, threading, and a scene graph. The process of game development is frequently economized by in large part reusing the same game engine to create different games.[1]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine

Other points of contention:

1) I'm pretty sure Epic knows the difference between a game engine and a game editor. PS: Engnie... all the different parts listed in the wiki definition. Editor... what you use to change those parts.

2) 'Engine' does not imply that you would have access to the raw code, nor does it constitute a different definition apart from itself.

3) You say Unreal Script is slow. Doing what? How? Examples? And how long would it take doing it the raw code way? Does it matter what it uses? You go on to list why it's important to have Unreal Script but yet say Unreal isn't good because it uses a scripting language? I believe you have your head on bassackwards about this whole thing dude. Don't forget there are other things to consider than raw speed. I also doubt it's that much of a difference.

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 19:41
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Quote: "Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP, which explains the numerous bugs in most programs written in OOP languages like C++."


I'd love to see a source for this comment.


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 21:18
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I have to admit, the thing that majorly bugs me is trying to get rid of all the UT3 stuff that's already in there...

Violence isn't the answer, it's the question...
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Xarshi
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 21:23 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 21:27
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Quote: "Then don't use it.
"

I don't.

Quote: "That is a matter of opinion.
OOP was around in the 1960's but never used heavily until the 1990's because of it was deemed "too complex" by programmers of that era.
Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP, which explains the numerous bugs in most programs written in OOP languages like C++.
Structured programming like COBOL is the least messy, and therfore the most stable, which is why is was used heavily for business applications."

Yes, it is. I was simply asking why he preferred procedural programming over OOP. I never said it was wrong necessarily, just said there were more options in OOP. I don't think you have polymorphism with procedural code, nor structured hierarchies.

Quote: "Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP"

That is a matter of opinion.

Quote: "I lol'd.
"

May I ask why?

Quote: "1) I'm pretty sure Epic knows the difference between a game engine and a game editor. PS: Engnie... all the different parts listed in the wiki definition. Editor... what you use to change those parts."

The UDK application is an editor. It is similar to FPSC. The engine itself is the code. You are making use of this engine, yes, but you are not able to access any classes or anything else which would be so much more appealing to programmers.

Quote: "2) 'Engine' does not imply that you would have access to the raw code, nor does it constitute a different definition apart from itself."

I've never once stated that I want access to the raw code. I simply desire the binaries. A simple *.lib and *.dll would do just fine, as well as some documentation.

I think I have addressed all arguments and or flames in this post. Forgive me if I forgot you.

Edit - Knew I would forget one.

Quote: "3) You say Unreal Script is slow. Doing what? How? Examples? And how long would it take doing it the raw code way? Does it matter what it uses? You go on to list why it's important to have Unreal Script but yet say Unreal isn't good because it uses a scripting language? I believe you have your head on bassackwards about this whole thing dude. Don't forget there are other things to consider than raw speed. I also doubt it's that much of a difference."

Yes, it is slow in comparison to C++. My reasons? It was programmed in C++. Obviously C++ will be faster. If you are at all familiar with how scripting languages work you would be able to understand. If not, I can attempt to explain it a little to you.

Edit 2 - Forgot something else actually.
Quote: "Quote: "Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP, which explains the numerous bugs in most programs written in OOP languages like C++."

I'd love to see a source for this comment. "

I would like to see one as well.
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dark coder
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 02:05 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2009 02:19
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What's with all these ludicrous anti-OOP comments that keep seeping out of the woodwork every now and then? It's amazing to see how far ignorance of what something is can take someone's views; procedural programming and OOP aren't mutually exclusive, in fact to write any OOP you require procedural code to do anything, it's just wrapping procedural code into nice little methods and having data associated with it. Thus by definition it's more structured(less messy).

I think I will have to frame this ridiculous statement: "Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP, which explains the numerous bugs in most programs written in OOP languages like C++.". I didn't think it was possible for someone to top saying function folding was an inherent of OOP but here we are.




Quote: "Yes, it is slow in comparison to C++. My reasons? It was programmed in C++. Obviously C++ will be faster."


Being programming in C++ has no bearing in whether the end result is faster or slower than C++, it's completely possible to write a programming language in C++ that can compile exes that are faster than ones produced by any C++ compiler released, of course it would be quite a large waste of time.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 02:36
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Quote: "Being programming in C++ has no bearing in whether the end result is faster or slower than C++, it's completely possible to write a programming language in C++ that can compile exes that are faster than ones produced by any C++ compiler released, of course it would be quite a large waste of time."

Yes, it is possible for that, but that's not the case with Unreal Script. I know how Unreal Script works. It analyzes the code at runtime, reading in lines and using commands in C++ to see what the script is telling it to do. You could think of it like this: You are carrying a large item that is quite heavy. There are two doors: One door that leads to another door that leads to your chosen destination, or one door that leads to your destination directly. Which door will be faster?"

I never gave my reasoning as to why Unreal Script won't be as fast as C++, but it is quite obvious if one takes a moment to think about it.
Quote: "What's with all these ludicrous anti-OOP comments that keep seeping out of the woodwork every now and then?"

You are on a forum that is primarily aimed at a basic programming language. Most people here probably find C++ or any other OOP language to be too difficult.

Also, fun fact, C++ can be used procedurally. It isn't like Java or C# where you are forced to use objects. Of course, I do like the way C++ handles OOP as opposed to Java, C#, and VB.
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dark coder
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 03:05
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Quote: "I never gave my reasoning as to why Unreal Script won't be as fast as C++, but it is quite obvious if one takes a moment to think about it."


I'm fully aware that US is slower than native C++(using any compiler, I hope) as it's interpreted as bytecode, but your post did imply that because it was made using C++ it had to be slower than it, which doesn't have to be the case(though with any interpreted language it does).

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Xarshi
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 03:09
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Quote: "I'm fully aware that US is slower than native C++(using any compiler, I hope) as it's interpreted as bytecode, but your post did imply that because it was made using C++ it had to be slower than it, which doesn't have to be the case(though with any interpreted language it does)."

You are right, I chose a poor way of saying what I meant. And I never meant to say that you weren't capable of understanding why it was slower, that wasn't my intention. So I apologize if you took it that way.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 03:56
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Quote: "Quote: "What's with all these ludicrous anti-OOP comments that keep seeping out of the woodwork every now and then?"
You are on a forum that is primarily aimed at a basic programming language. Most people here probably find C++ or any other OOP language to be too difficult."


Then why not have just that as an argument against OOP?

"I dislike OOP because it's too difficult and takes too much work for me to care about, procedural programming is a lot more convenient."

Of course, it would then be an anti-OOP argument, just why you prefer not to use it.

If I wanted to do programming professionally, then it would be my best interest in going more into depth, but truth is, I, like many people here are hobbiests and would prefer methods that make it easier and less complicated and procedural programming can do that. But I know I'm ignorant of C++, OOP and all of that, so I'm not going to make arguments against OOP without knowing my stuff...besides I couldn't possibly be 'anti-OOP' when I don't know enough about. So it saves being ridiculed.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 04:25
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Yes, Seppuku. That is correct. That could be an argument, albeit just one that seems lazy to an extent. Nothing particularly wrong with it, however.

I personally am a hobbyist at this point in time. I shall probably remain that way since I changed my mind on majoring in computer science to majoring in Aerospace Engineering. But I have no regrets with learning C++. It is a wonderful tool in my opinion, and has opened the door to many new adventures.

As an example, I never once created a moderately fun first person shooter in DBP. However, in C++, I have made a first person shooter which had a level editor, scripts it would load, multiple weapons, multiplayer, full physics integration with amazing character controllers and so on, vehicles, and more. It was a truly amazing experience making that in itself even.

But it is up to you all. Personally, the only reason I came back was to make a Havok plugin for dark basic pro. My only reasoning with that is that I was so displeased with Dark Physics when it came out (I had been looking forward to it for a long while) that I wanted to give people another option that would not disappoint. I have accomplished integrating it in C++ to a point where it feels like you are playing any modern game, so I feel as if it would be easy enough to integrate it into Dark Basic Pro. So I most likely will shortly. That was an unnecessary rant that didn't really pertain to this conversation, but oh well n_n
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BearCDP
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 06:50
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I can see why you guys can hate on OOP when you're all working independent on games, but using a language with OOP when working on a team is wonderful.

Last summer I interned at a defense company doing a very small R&D project that was essentially "let's make this device talk to this other device so the customer will pay us money to do it efficiently and on a large scale."

Our team consisted of 7 people. Of those, 3 were advanced programmers and worked on the side where they were writing code to run on a real-time system, and were forced to write everything in C99. The other side consisted of me, and 2 computer/electrical engineering majors fresh out of school, and someone who had worked with the company a while but only written code in C.

Furthermore, our side was actually split into two subsystems. Our device needed to talk to the first system, a proxy on a PC, call methods on another thread to the second system, which acted as a faux client for the real-time system. The people working with the device proxy took FOREVER to get it working, and before I left I ended up restructuring all their code because they were trying to use procedural programming with an event-based library (JAIN-SIP).

The fact that we were using OOP allowed me and the other guy working on the faux-client system to easily make a dummy proxy program so that we could test communication with the real-time system. After the proxy guys started getting their act together, we were able to say "We're going to call these methods on your objects in this order, and you will call these methods on our objects in this order. I don't care how you do it, just make sure your side works, call the methods, and it will all work fine."

And it did work fine, for the most part. Although, they randomly opened double the amount of ports they needed since they weren't following the event model of JAIN-SIP, so when I tried to stop it from opening up all the extra ports it crapped out on me, then I read the JAIN-SIP javadoc and realized that yes indeed: it used events and that's why it kept breaking. As soon as I fixed that everything worked perfectly. I was able to even add in a few bells and whistles before the internship ended which would have caused the whole thing to break had we not been using OOP.


Ever since that experience, I have vowed to design with objects in mind. Does UnrealScript support OOP? (I could RTFM, but I wanted to make this somewhat on-topic).

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 07:01
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Why would Unreal need a scripting language? If you can't come up with anything besides "It's slow," then I believe your whole argument is like comparing apples to oranges. Unreal needs Scripting for many practical reasons. C++ being faster doesn't make it practical and it doesn't make Unreal a bad engine, a slow engine, or a ill designed engine. Make sure you aren't cutting off your nose to spite your face here. The fact that there is a Scripting language with Unreal is a very advantageous thing. I suppose I don't see the harm in having access to .dll's as you stated you wished above, but I just think this argument is headed down the slippery slope at this point. This was my attempt in stopping that at least

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 07:56
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Quote: "Does UnrealScript support OOP? (I could RTFM, but I wanted to make this somewhat on-topic)."


Yes, everything is centred around objects in UnrealScript. Although the actual OOP implementation is simpler than say, C++ (there's no data hiding, no multiple inheritance, no pointers).

I don't know about UE3 but I do know that previous versions of the engine had a lot of functionality implemented with scripts, probably to allow it to be modified more. Entity interpolation, for example, is handled in a script.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 08:31 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2009 09:15
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Quote: "You are on a forum that is primarily aimed at a basic programming language. Most people here probably find C++ or any other OOP language to be too difficult."

Yes, I prefer BASIC over C++, so laugh some more.
I guess it depends on your idea of messy, but you try fixing someone elses bugs when they are inheriting multiple classes. (multiple bugs)
I never liked OOP, so yes I never learned more about it than I had to, so yes go ahead and call me ignorant or anything else you want.

Quote: "I think I will have to frame this ridiculous statement: "Procedural programming is far less messy than OOP, which explains the numerous bugs in most programs written in OOP languages like C++.". I didn't think it was possible for someone to top saying function folding was an inherent of OOP but here we are."

Hahaha, you must have overlooked the part saying "That is a matter of opinion."
So, I disagree, big deal, it doesn't mean I am wrong or that you are right.
It simply means we have different ideas about the definition of "messy" and different ideas about which programming language is less complex.
All of them are a bunch of hype for real because it is all binary in the end, but now you can call me stupid for saying that too.
I don't know why some of you guys insist on trying to belittle someone when you disagree rather than just stating your opinion.
I guess somehow you feel smarter by calling someone else dumb.
Whatever dude.

Quote: "I'd love to see a source for this comment. "

I lost the code for my Video Poker machine that was written in basic years ago.
I feel compelled to recode it now.

And back to UDK, it is as buggy as a flea circus!
I'm gonna hold off on using the UDK until it has more documentation and tutorials. (for its editor not the UE3)
There are major differences in the editors, so that stuff gets you started but it is still too much trial and error.
I think I will be better off focusing on DBP right now.

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dark coder
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 09:40
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Quote: "but you try fixing someone elses bugs when they are inheriting multiple classes. (multiple bugs)"


I wasn't aware inheritance was synonymous with bug? If a class hasn't been properly tested then yes, anything inheriting it will retain any bugs it contains(unless you can override the method(s) in question). But this is no different from procedural coding or in fact anything, if someone writes a function that doesn't work properly then any time you use it you run the risk of running into issues.


Quote: "Hahaha, you must have overlooked the part saying "That is a matter of opinion.""


What? So if you say something is subjective it's immune to ridicule?


Quote: "So, I disagree, big deal, it doesn't mean I am wrong or that you are right."


Differing views isn't the point here, the point is that OOP is demonstrably less messy than procedural programming because the whole purpose of OOP is to structure the code more, so that more complex and larger projects can more easily be made. Thus this is a matter of objectivity and not subjectivity, you must be confusing new syntax with messiness as OOP is language-agnostic, thus your preconceptions about C++'s syntax are irrelevant to this discussion.


Quote: "I don't know why some of you guys insist on trying to belittle someone when you disagree rather than just stating your opinion."


I did state my position in the first paragraph, thus you can't really accuse me of attacking you rather your position.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 10:43 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2009 10:43
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Quote: "albeit just one that seems lazy to an extent. "


Well, not really. Perhaps it's more honest than looking for individual flaws...or so it appears. Different users have different needs and that is probably the most important thing. I wouldn't call my desire for something simpler 'laziness'. Hobbyists no doubt have other things in their life to focus on and even desire a career in something completely different. When I'm trailing through C++ for Dummies (I actually have a copy ...it is good at explaining it in Dummy talk) trying to figure out how to get simple databases working before moving up to the next step, I could be working on a writing project.

Hobbyist programming is a past time, hence it's a hobby rather than a business, a career or career goal.

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