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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Sony sued because visually impaired can't play games

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:25 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:36
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Quote: "Are you too stupid to realise this is not a comparable situation? For starters, driving consists nearly entirely of vision (and has few or no useful audible cues). Secondly, not having perfect vision in a video game does not kill people."

No need to imply people are stupid.
Especially when you are trying to convince me that driving and video games are not comparable when considering one's eyesight.

I would have to be stupid to forget the first word in video game is video, when most people would understand that eyesight is critical to the act of viewing video.

So, no, I am not as stupid as you are suggesting.


There are plenty of games out there to play , like board games, that can be easily adapted to those with eyesight impairments.

To suggest making VIDEO games for people who have difficulty seeing is what is stupid, but everyone rushes in with emotions rather than logic!!! (That too is stupid.)
I would think that video games would be one of the last types of games in the world to adapt to someone who has difficulty seeing.

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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:32 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:32
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Quote: "I would have to be stupid to forget the first word in video game is video, when most people would understand that eyesight is critical to the act of viewing video.

So, no, I am not as stupid as you are suggesting."


For the millionth time: This guy can see he just can't see very well. That's dangerous (and unworkable) for driving a car. It is not unworkable for playing a video game (because a) it's not dangerous and b) unlike the windscreen in a car, a game could alter visual elements to assist him).

So once again, yes, they are incomparable.

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xplosys
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:33
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Should game companies make efforts to ensure playability for the hearing/sight/mobility/etc impaired?

Sure, why not. Especially when asked to do so by players.

Should they be forced to do so and sued if they don't?

No. It's not something that the impaired are required or have or need to do. Sure, it may improve their standard of living, but so would a speed boat. Who do we go after next... the automobile industry?

Brian.

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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:36 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:36
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Quote: "Should they be forced to do so and sued if they don't?

No."


Thing is though, whilst I agree in principal, the products that don't cater for disabilities never explicitly say "You can't play this if you have a disability". So on top of your issue, if you're not going to force accessibility options you at least need to indicate on the box whether a disabled player can play or not (otherwise it's just completely chance. Some devs do it... some don't. It's not terribly fair on the disabled purchaser)

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zeroSlave
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:36 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:39
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Quote: "and has few or no useful audible cues"

Except for every single emergency vehicle. And the fact that almost every car has a radio and a horn for some odd reason is kind of funny too.

Quote: "If the interpretation of the act mentioned is correct, it already is law, which is the entire point of the lawsuit. Did you actually read the article?"


"No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation."

Video games and Sony are not a place of public accommodation. Or did I interpret it wrong?

Edit: Anyways, if he actually wants to help the situation at all, he needs to do some work himself and create some games for people with visual disabilities. Suing isn't going to help anyone but himself and his lawyer.

There's something in this room that makes you can't speak well.
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xplosys
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:39 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:40
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Quote: "Or did I interpret it wrong?"


Yes, I think online games would be considered a place of public accommodation. It could be a good argument though.

Quote: "the products that don't cater for disabilities never explicitly say "You can't play this if you have a disability""


Games may need another rating and perhaps this will come from it.

Brian.

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Lemonade
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:39 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:41
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Quote: "For the millionth time: This guy can see he just can't see very well. That's dangerous (and unworkable) for driving a car. It is not unworkable for playing a video game (because a) it's not dangerous and b) unlike the windscreen in a car, a game could alter visual elements to assist him)."


Should I press charges for barely being able to notice my air freshener if I have a weak sense of smell?? Should the court force the product's manufacturer to produce a "concentrated" version for the "smelling impaired"? Can't you see the stupidity of the law interfering where it doesn't belong?
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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:39 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:43
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Quote: "Except for every single emergency vehicle. And the fact that almost every car has a radio and a horn for some odd reason is kind of funny too."


Unless you have exceptionally good hearing -> spatial placement, most of the cues are completely useless (other than alerting you to something being there - they can't indicate where the object is in place of better vision, or necessarily tell you what it is either)

Quote: "Or did I interpret it wrong?"


"No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation."

Yes, you did (but arguably you need a lawyer/solicitor to really interpret it correctly as goods and services may well differ depending on circumstance and a whole load of other legalese)

Quote: "Suing isn't going to help anyone but himself and his lawyer"


Unless it sets a legal precedent, in which case every publisher will shove accessibility features into everything in order to cover themselves from lawsuits. Seems a fair course of action to me

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:41 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:53
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Quote: ""No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation."

Video games and Sony are not a place of public accommodation. Or did I interpret it wrong?"


You missed the or, or accomodations... So the stuff before counts separately.

This is the important part...
Quote: "No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods..."


with an emphasis on "full and equal enjoyment"
The question here is equality, and he got to play the game the same as everyone else.
He was not treated indifferently.
It is preposterous to think that Sony can conceptualize every single disablity that every user might have.
And it is preposterous to think that they could develop a system to accomodate those needs if they could imagine those disabilities.

Again, VIDEO games are dependent on the user's eyesight, and his eyesight is what is in question.
Here is another comparison for you and I will stick to games this time so yuo will not accuse me of being stupid.
Should he sue the New York Yankees if he cannot see well enough to pitch for their team?

His eyesight is what is the hang up here, and that is no more Sony's fault than it is his.

And no, I did not even read the article but I gather enough facts from you guys...

1) Some kid can't see well enough to play his video game

2) He called a lawyer who saw dollar signs when he mentioned Sony

#1 is all I need to know to judge that case and determine who is at fault.

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zeroSlave
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:48
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Quote: "Yes, I think online games would be considered a place of public accommodation. It could be a good argument though."


good point....

But I would still argue that even online games are not a place. Sure, the servers are stored in different locations across the world, but he would still be accessing them and using them from his own home. However, if he was trying to access it at an internet cafe(or something) that was not tailored to people with disabilities then we might have an issue.

There's something in this room that makes you can't speak well.
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Lemonade
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:52 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:52
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Quote: "However, if he was trying to access it at an internet cafe(or something) that was not tailored to people with disabilities then we might have an issue."


Exactly. The problem is on the computer's end--its not the game's fault. Maybe he should sue his monitor's manufacturer for not having a "high contrast" mode. Or maybe it does, and he hasn't tried it. Most do these days...
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zeroSlave
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Posted: 9th Nov 2009 23:53 Edited at: 9th Nov 2009 23:54
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"No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public..."



It is stating that any place that offers goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations is susceptible to this act.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 00:24 Edited at: 10th Nov 2009 00:25
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So, I read the article and now I am convinced it is a waste of time.

That kid's lawyer is lucky I'm not the judge.

Quote: "According to the suit, Sony ignored repeated requests through postal mail and e-mail to come up with reasonable modifications to its games to make them more accessible. The suit, which doesn't mention SOE games by name but appears to focus on massively multiplayer online titles, requests the addition of visual cues to point gamers to their destinations for gamers with "disability impaired visual processing."

The suit also specifies the ways in which other companies have made their games accessible. For instance, Blizzard Entertainment's World of Warcraft allows the use of third-party mods in its game, which has led to the creation of several programs to include accessibility aids in the game. The suit also mentions Pin Interactive's action adventure PC game Terraformers, saying high-contrast 3D graphics modes, an audio compass, and voice-over detailing items collected in the game all serve to make the game more accessible. "


They have a right to ignore anyone's emails. (even the judge, though not advised )

This kid just wants pointers to show him to his destination, so he doesn't have to explore the world.
That shows little interest in the game or its design, so why is he so bothered if he doesn't want to take the time to experience it?

If those other games are so much better, then go play them and quit your crying.

Again, it's not Sony's fault he can't see.
And why should they make the game less difficult? (isn't that denying them their artistic freedom and the right to free expression?)
That is like accusing makers of cell phones of ignoring the rights of those with fat fingers.
Should they make your cell phone as big as a brick to accomodate them?

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 00:26
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Quote: ""No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation.""

^^just to quote this for the umpteenth time^^

Quote: "You missed the or, or accomodations... So the stuff before counts separately."


Errm, so it's "(goods and services and facilities and priveleged and advantages) or accomodations"? Even if that was true... there isn't much point to saying that...

I think that the real key word here is "discriminated". Here's a random definition of descrimination.

Quote: "Discrimination toward or against a person of a certain group is the treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit."


The treatment of the visually impaired person (in terms of what the visually impaired person is or isn't allowed to do) is exactly the same as anyone else. Once the person is in possession of the game, they can legally do whatever they can legally do with it. Visually impaired people just happen to be inable to see the game well, but this is in no way the fault of the company.

In no way are visually impaired people treated (by the company) in any way that is different from everyone else. It is the visually impaired person's fault (or rather their eye's fualt) that they can't play the video game.

Sony has treated everyone the same. What they did not do was spend money and effort on a specific group of one of many minorities, who may not be able to play their games well.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 00:42
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Okay guys, I have given it more thought, and I am converting to your side.

Something must be done, and I think I have the perfect guy for the job.

I'm on it!

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 00:50 Edited at: 10th Nov 2009 00:50
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Quote: "Saying it is reasonable to add it is one thing, but saying it should be enforced borders on Communism."


If you took the time to read the article, it says they WANT reasonable improvements to be made. What is it with all the over-reacting here?


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lazerus
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 01:00
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I had one foot on my chair an one of the floor, bent over to my keyboard. I just laughed so much, i lost my balance and cracked my head open on the wall.

Thanks Cos' it was completly worth it.

I think i should get this looked at now.

____
-laz


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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 01:15
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Quote: "it says they WANT reasonable improvements to be made. What is it with all the over-reacting here?"


So.... he's not taking them to court to get them to do it, he's just going to court to tell them what he wants. I guess it's ok then.

Brian.

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 02:04
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Quote: "Quote: ""No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation."

Video games and Sony are not a place of public accommodation. Or did I interpret it wrong?"

You missed the or, or accomodations... So the stuff before counts separately.

This is the important part...
Quote: "No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods..."

with an emphasis on "full and equal enjoyment"
The question here is equality, and he got to play the game the same as everyone else.
He was not treated indifferently.
It is preposterous to think that Sony can conceptualize every single disablity that every user might have.
And it is preposterous to think that they could develop a system to accomodate those needs if they could imagine those disabilities.

Again, VIDEO games are dependent on the user's eyesight, and his eyesight is what is in question.
Here is another comparison for you and I will stick to games this time so yuo will not accuse me of being stupid.
Should he sue the New York Yankees if he cannot see well enough to pitch for their team?

His eyesight is what is the hang up here, and that is no more Sony's fault than it is his.

And no, I did not even read the article but I gather enough facts from you guys...

1) Some kid can't see well enough to play his video game

2) He called a lawyer who saw dollar signs when he mentioned Sony

#1 is all I need to know to judge that case and determine who is at fault."


Well said.

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luke810
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 04:05
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These are the kinds of laws that get passed and slow down bureaucratic process to the point where it takes 13 million dollars to carry out a 2 million dollar task. If he's blind, he doesn't have to play the game.

People keep saying think about it from the man's point of view, but think about the company? Do you want to have to spend a fortune trying to meet some set graphical standard for your games? No, it would cost you a fortune and drive up costs every time you have to go back and fix something. The man isn't obligated to buy games geared primarily towards visual recognition when he can't see in the first place. He's either doing it for money or because he's angry about his own disability, which is just stupid.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 07:48
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Would it be better for there to be investment into the "visually impaired" market? Given the huge range of visual disabilities, I can't see a game company catering each individual one.

I wouldn't call it discrimination either, they're just not accommodating for everybody who could possibly play the video game. Not even the films industry does it - I've not seen any options on any of my DVDs to say "subtitles/text for those with Irlens -> pick a colour for the text background" or "no-flashing images edition for epileptics".

But I don't see why a games company would have to have it enforced by law to accommodate for everybody in case they're faced with accusations of discrimination. It is very difficult to accommodate for everyone who can possibly be accommodated for. So I think it should be optional and thus there would be no grounds for being sued.


Perhaps the man should kick up a fuss with local government to see if they'd fund any modifications of released games or putting investment into games companies catering for visual disabilities.

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fallen one
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 08:17 Edited at: 10th Nov 2009 08:37
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Those that are on the blind guys side, and take note, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, are you ready to be sued when 'your' game isn't politically correct? Do you want to be sued as well. Also take note, political correctness, not social correctness, the term and concept actually comes from Russia, during their (political term censored -UAP) days, so have a think on that then. Like I said in my first post on this thread, social engineering, nothing random, or do you really think this guy has money to burn with a case like this against a giant company, how much spare sue giant corporation money have you got spare? And how much publicity would you get for any case 'you' thought you could bring before a large corporation. The answer is none at all. These are not random cases, they are planned specifically for 'you', for social change, like I told you before.

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Herakles
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 22:28
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The law is for punishing criminals, not for bitching about how you can't play video games. It is no more a crime for game companies to make games geared toward those who can see well than it is for television channels to play shows geared toward women (thus putting men through much misery).

If this guy really wanted to help the visually impaired, he could have started a charity: "Donate money towards a new video game company that makes games with accomodations for the visually impaired!"

I'm working on Swordfight again! Come tell me what you think!
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 10th Nov 2009 23:45 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 13:01
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I just read the entire Complaint filed in the federal court; about 22 pages. The plaintiff is, as the article mentioned, Alexander Stern, and the lawyer who filed the complaint is an Andrew R. Stern, listed as a sole practitioner.

It might not be, as some have supposed, some money-grubbing lawyer out to drum up a class action. It might be a father-attorney seeking redress for a disabled son that he loves. Also, It appears to have been filed after many instances of trying to discuss the matter with Sony and having been blown off.

The complaint is quite detailed, and mentions specific examples of how other companies in the gaming market apparently provide or promote the types of accomodations the plaintiff would like Sony to provide. You guys are better situated to test the validity of the assertions than I am, so here are two: World of Warcraft by Vivendi is capable of providing visual cues for visually impaired players through free 3rd party modifications which Vivendi allegedly promotes; Terraformers by Pin Interactive supposedly contains several features (didn't copy them down) designed for visually impaired players. The complaint also cites studies supposedly showing how the handicapped players spend more time playing the games than non-handicapped persons, report more benefits, etc.

On the following observation - just trust me. I've been a lawyer for 35 years and I can tell a sloppy complaint from one that has been carefully put together with great care and concern for the party being represented. This complaint is the latter.

The complaint is not without it's problems. The "public accommodations" issues that some have noted is somewhat abstract. The law would not normally required someone only selling a product to make the handicapped-accessible. The issue might arise when the vendor runs a site where you play the game, or in other situations the complaint tries to address.
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demons breath
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 04:43
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Quote: "The law would not normally required someone only selling a product to make the handicapped-accessible."

This is the problem, in essence, with the lawsuit. No matter how many issues they drag up, and how we might empathise with the plaintiff's case, at the end of the day, it's like a guy with no legs suing Nike because he can't get his trainers to fit...

"The fools may crash down upon us in thunderous waves, but we shall Jeku slap them back from whence they came"
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zeroSlave
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 05:07 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 05:07
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Thought this was somewhat relevant:



There's something in this room that makes you can't speak well.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 08:17
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Quote: " it's like a guy with no legs suing Nike because he can't get his trainers to fit...
"


I think Sony need you as their defense lawyer. You can use the Chewbacca defense combined with this.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 12:16 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 12:16
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On a more constructive note, has anyone here created a computer game for the blind? We tend to focus on computer graphics whereas we all know that good games require effective sound as well - and DBPro's sound support is rather rudimentary.

I know Braille keyboards and "screens" (I don't know the correct word) exist as I had an interesting discussion about this with an acquaintance who is visually impaired (not actually blind - but is so for all practical purposes) and teaches computer skills to the blind.

I'd certainly find it difficult to write, or even design, such a game but I'm sure it could be done and would be an interesting challenge for someone.
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fallen one
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 14:17 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 14:18
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I was going to make a game for the blind ages ago with FPSC as I thought the engine wasn't up to a regular game, as I felt it was too buggy and had too many problems, the game was to use sound to traverse the levels, and was inspired by a telephone game made by I think the same people that did fighting fantasy gamebooks, can you belive they had telephone games like 20 plus years ago, I remember play by mail rpgs as well, that's snail mail folks, yep times have changed, or technology has. Anyway, fpsc was not up to the game, its sound was just too random and wasn't fine tuned enough to move around in using sound as a guide to the levels, so it couldn't be done, but it is something I looked at in the past.

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xplosys
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 14:18
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I have a client company whose owner is legally blind, however she still manages to run the company and take care of the books on her computer. She uses a 32" LCD/TV and screen magnifier to run the speadsheets. As I watch her work, a few cells of the spreadsheet take up the entire screen. For me, it's very confusing but she is quite adept at navigating and finding the correct cells.

I guess her other choice would have been to sue Microsoft for not being able to see and work the program as I normally do. That make just as much sense as what this guy is trying to do.

Brian.

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David R
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 14:26 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 14:28
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Quote: "I guess her other choice would have been to sue Microsoft for not being able to see and work the program as I normally do. That make just as much sense as what this guy is trying to do."


Quote: "32" LCD/TV and screen magnifier"


Unless I missed something, screen magnifier is a tool provided in Windows by MS. MS has accessibility tools, and using them she can do her job. Unlike Sony which refuses to co-operate, implement accessibility or even allow third party mods

EDIT: Also, OSes are a different kettle of fish altogether considering that third party tools are always an option. That isn't the case for extremely specific elements of a game (which isn't a platform in itself)

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xplosys
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 18:49
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Microsoft does have a screen magnifier, but it is extremely basic and limited, and she doesn't use it. It doesn't magnify to her needs and she uses a third party magnifier.

Does this let Microsoft off the hook because someone else made a program that allows her to use it?

Should this guy be sueing a company or individual who makes plugins/addons for other games but not for this one?

Brian.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 20:11
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Wow, she must really have the mag. up high. On order of 25x?

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 20:50
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Quote: "Unless I missed something, screen magnifier is a tool provided in Windows by MS. MS has accessibility tools, and using them she can do her job. Unlike Sony which refuses to co-operate, implement accessibility or even allow third party mods"


Completely irrelevant. Windows is known to be used by the majority of the world, including older, visually impaired individuals. Microsoft knows this and does extra work to increase their market range, and maybe also because they feel that something so important as the OS should be made more usable by more people. Do they have to? Naah. But they do. And they are not be required to because it's not their problem. They do it because they know visually impaired people, without Windows, would be forced to use a MAC, which would be worse for their mental development than using Windows while visually impaired.

A game? No one NEEDS the game for daily use, no one HAS to play the game.

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David R
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 20:59 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 21:08
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Quote: "Completely irrelevant. Windows is known to be used by the majority of the world, including older, visually impaired individuals. Microsoft knows this and does extra work to increase their market range, and maybe also because they feel that something so important as the OS should be made more usable by more people. Do they have to? Naah. But they do. And they are not be required to because it's not their problem.
"


You seem to have completely missed my point - whilst they already DO provide these tools, even if they DID NOT Windows is still an open platform. Third party tools could fill the gap. A game (being a closed platform unless opened to modding) is not in that position. The guy we're talking about already negotiated with Sony about opening the game up to either modding or accessibility plugins/tweaks and Sony refused.

Quote: "
They do it because they know visually impaired people, without Windows, would be forced to use a MAC, which would be worse for their mental development than using Windows while visually impaired."


Here's something to make the MS/PC fanboy in you implode: The 360 is a PPC machine. Before dev kits were 'on a roll', MS did initial development on PPC Macs (G5s). OMG LOLOLZ WOT MACZ SUX!

Seriously, get over it, it's an OS/machine -_-

Quote: "
A game? No one NEEDS the game for daily use, no one HAS to play the game.
"


So it's OK to justify this guy not being able to make full use of his purchase, purely because you say he doesn't need it? You don't NEED to be on this forum, can we ban you without you complaining? (You don't NEED it right?). Need vs. want is the weakest argument ever. Just because this guy can live without the game doesn't mean he wants to be deprived of it. He paid for it!

+ If the game warned "DO NOT BUY IF YOU CANNOT SEE, THIS GAME HAS NO ACCESSIBILITY FEATURES" I can understand - but as it is, the guy probably had reasonable expectations of it e.g. WoW does it and has a wealth of accessibility tools - he probably made the (fairly sound) presumption that EQ had the same kind of community / modding.

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 21:13
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He should have looked up the game and it's disability features before purchasing it, expecting everything to be done for him. It's entirely his fault if he didn't check to see if the game(s) in question were adapted to bad eyesight, so why should other people suffer?

Jeku always gets drunk and tries to Moderate the ocean. Tirelessly slapping the waves as they roll in.
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xplosys
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 21:13
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Quote: "Here's something to make the MS/PC fanboy in you implode"


Sorry, you just lost all credibility with me. If your arguments won't stand on their own and you have to resort to name calling, I can't take you seriously.

Quote: "So it's OK to justify this guy not being able to make full use of his purchase, purely because you say he doesn't need it? You don't NEED to be on this forum, can we ban you without you complaining? (You don't NEED it right?)"


You know he didn't say that. He was making a comparison between the OS - which is much more necessary - and a program that is less important.

Brian.

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heyufool1
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 21:14
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I'm sorry but I think this is stupid. Trampolines don't have to made for paraplegics and iPods don't have to be made for the deaf so why should a video game have to be made for the visually disabled?

Your bedtime story is scaring everyone
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David R
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 21:37 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 21:40
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Quote: "Sorry, you just lost all credibility with me. If your arguments won't stand on their own and you have to resort to name calling, I can't take you seriously"


Did you not read what I was replying to? Insinuating that Macs are worse for "mental development" is hardly a mature / self-standing argument in itself

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xplosys
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 21:45
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Yes, I saw the reference. He was talking about the difference in PC vs MAC in his opinion. This obviously offended you and you came back at him personnaly. It's just hard to value someones opinion after they say "I know you are but what am I".

Brian.

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David R
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 21:52 Edited at: 11th Nov 2009 21:57
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Quote: " This obviously offended you and you came back at him personnaly. "


No. Notice this:

Quote: "Here's something to make the MS/PC fanboy in you implode:"
!= "You're a fanboy". It's implying there's an aspect of MS 'love' in him (which there is, he prefers PCs to Macs by the sound of it)

Same as the phrases "the child in you" etc. They don't mean "you're a child". It's talking about a specific facet of that person.

I was also trying to highlight the irrelevance of slipping Mac vs. PC into it with the "get over it". Because they are machines, and I frankly don't care - this is a thread about a guy with poor vision, not a guy choosing a new laptop

Quote: "Trampolines don't have to made for paraplegics and iPods don't have to be made for the deaf so why should a video game have to be made for the visually disabled?"


Those are two things which entirely consist of one thing (i.e. motion and hearing). As mentioned millions of times over, that is not a comparable situation, because video games are not entirely dictated by vision - vision dominates the experience, but with a bit of assistance, it is is possible for partial sighted persons to play.

Also note that you're using paraplegics etc. in your argument - this guy is not completely blind. A better comparison would be a guy with a broken leg on a trampoline - in which case the trampoline is still usable with additional care and maybe help getting on and off.

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xplosys
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 22:15
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To me it doesn't matter what someone else did with their video game or if the guy asked nicely first. The game belongs to Sony, they made it and you can play it or not play it the way they made it.

People who can't see well enough to drive should not drive cars.
People who can't see the movie screen should not go to the movie theater.
They should not ski a busy mountain slope, or cross the highway during rush hour.

I could go on and on, but I'm finishing with this. It's nice when people and businesses accommodate the impaired. I can see it when services are considered necessary for sustaining life or freedom, but to force a business to make their recreational products or services impaired friendly is just ridiculous. If we’re going to insist that the game industry do it, then everyone should have to do it… which of course is very stupid.

Brian.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 23:11
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Quote: "I was also trying to highlight the irrelevance of slipping Mac vs. PC into it with the "get over it"."


Apple still makes macs?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Nov 2009 23:43
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Yes. Rather big ones.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 12th Nov 2009 00:02
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Dunno, that screen size measurement looks like it would get annoying after a while.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Nov 2009 00:12
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You know, I can imagine it would. You can only go so big before your icons and menus get so small in proportion that it becomes an irritance. I found this occasionally on the 24in model.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 12th Nov 2009 00:15
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/s

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Sigh
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Posted: 12th Nov 2009 00:16 Edited at: 12th Nov 2009 00:18
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Makes me wonder - where does one person/group of people derive the power to demand, at the point of the government's "gun", another person/group make a product for them or tailor a product to their needs? Surely doesn't happen in a Constitutional federal republic....oh wait, we haven't had that here in the US in quite some time. Quite unfortunate it's tyranny of the majority (democracy) instead of majority rule with protection for the minority nowadays.

Did someone say Speak-N-Spell? Oh that was just y'all talking about apple products, never mind

Fighting the War Against Misused Apostrophes since 2002! Stop by for a chat! [IXE]Nateholio on irc.maxgaming.net:6667 #GarageGames
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 12th Nov 2009 00:18
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Quote: "People who can't see well enough to drive should not drive cars.
People who can't see the movie screen should not go to the movie theater.
They should not ski a busy mountain slope, or cross the highway during rush hour."


It's time you joined the real world.

Modern technology is moving towards the state where cars don't need drivers so whether they can see is irrelevant - just look at the research into robot controlled vehicles, pilotless aircraft, etc.

Many movies can be enjoyed without being able to see the screen.

Blind people DO cross roads believe it or not - they also run marathons, etc. It's just the decent human thing to do to respect other people's needs and make appropriate accommodations for them.

I guess the same applies to Sony.
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xplosys
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Posted: 12th Nov 2009 00:28
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Quote: "It's just the decent human thing to do to respect other people's needs and make appropriate accommodations for them."


I agree with that 100% and stated so earlier. It's just that we should not be forced to do it by threat.

brian.

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