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DarkBASIC Discussion / The problem with newer (not in the business so long) programmers

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Bogboy2000
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 00:15
Looking through some of the shots and topics I have noticed that a large majority of you are writing programs that while being grphically stunning, are usless (almost) to the users of slower and out of date PC's.

My pc is a p celeron 466, 300 meg ram and 16 meg graphics, and it's the fastest in the house. Rathen than just makeing something with the graphics of GT3 (not quite), try to make something that'll work on a P 200, its should help you to write better games in the future.

P.s. just as a quick question what resolution do you usually set you display mode to (or do you not bother changeing it)
The Darthster
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 00:39
Making something run on slower PC's is a problem I had with DB on my k6 II 500 with 32mb pci geforce 2 mx 400 graphics card. I don't know what other people's opinions are, but I prefer my games to look poor quality as long as I have a nice framerate, rather than having an amazing graphics slideshow. DarkBasic is relatively slow compared to other languages, so you can't do much before your framerate drops on lower end computers, especially if you have a lot of physics and especially collision. Since my new computer is more powerful, I tend to put more stuff in programs written for myself because I can run them faster, but other games I try to lower polygon counts as much as possible, use more optimised algorithms etc.

With DBPro's windowed fullscreen mode (which I haven't quite got used to yet) you can get much higer framerates than DB programs, but I still tend to use 640x480 for most things, by leaving it at default. That is unless the sprites I use look too big, then I use 800x600.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 01:07
well thats the ticket really isn't it?

people are trying to make THIER games to look professional, however they have no idea how to even develop something simple - let alone the knowlage or know how to create a complex game, suchas even Quake3!
there is no thought behind the fact that the games they wish to emulate have trouble using a language which will natively run the same tasks so much quicker its not even worth comparing!
However on the other side of the coin, once you understand darkbasic it is more possible to develop things of greater speed without much loss of quality.

By standard i use 640x480x16bpp ... this is because it is the most universal resolution, as if a monitor/graphics card is incapable of that - then it should be thrown away and something new bought. If i need more speed i'll window, and oftenly add in options of 400x300 (because most monitors handle that, and only a handful of D3D cards can't in D3D mode).

Graphically i attempt to leave as little polygon and texture work as humanly possible for DarkBasic to render, however if i can't shave them in code without setting up the routine in a simple runtime setup ... then it is oftenly faster just to render them complete!
But then being a Game Artist I have ample knowlage of understanding how many polygons and pixels can go where and in what fashion for speed reasons within an engine which isn't optimised

I think a valid point should be made, that the information people need to create their games is echo'd by the oldies quite oftenly - and what we mention is oftenly through experience, if they choose not to heed what is told then it is really upto them. I'm all for helping with a project, but when the first thing said is "I'm creating an FPS how can i created Doom3 Bump Mapping?" ... there is very little help i can give.

Mainly because they require to know programming quite well to understand any answers you are to give them (which with a question like that oftenly notes they don't even understand DarkBasic yet) - but also because they're thinking Quality of Graphics over Quality of Gameplay...

Doom3 can barely run well on top notch PCs, i'm not sure how they expect DarkBasic to produce the same results

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
hexGEAR
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 02:07
well, i've learned my lesson, i've started balancing out the graphics and fps of my games. Hey Bogboy2000 do you mind downloading my old game (not efficiently coded) and checking if it runs slowly, very slowly or painfully slow on your computer (that is if you have the time) my site is:
[url]www.geocities.com/hexgear[/url]
click on frontline warriors/ninja scroll/downloads
indi
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 04:15
bogboy2002 can u test my older DB1 prototype of a 3d arcade type shooter and tell me what fps u get on this.

http://www.lunarpixel.com/media/games/corepatrol.zip

indi
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 04:16
EdzUp
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 16:03
Personally IMHO games machines are upgrading all the time, I currently have a K6-2-400 here but I code on a P3 1Ghz. Youll find that requirements are far beyond a 466 for quite a few games these days.

I like to support a lower spec PC if I can but I wont be tied anymore to supporting Voodoo based cards, quite a few things these days would be driver issues with these cards and seeing as 3dfx is dead this cannot be rectified.

Bogboy2000
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 17:25
The reason i ask about the resolution (+ get sensible answer of 640,480,16) is because the graphical briliance of the PS2 is only 640,480 its the 128bpp that do the trick

One thought i had about improveing graphics without dropping framerates was to use OpenGL but I dont understand enough about .DLL files (HEX programing) to actually implament it.

I'll get onto downloading thoses Games straite away

To Indi I'm sure you were in the old darkbasic form, are you the same person?

as refrence to quake 3. My dads PC was the very fastest you could get p120 64 meg ram 2meg graphis when Quake 1 came out it ran farley well but was designed to test your PC to the max.

Making games run on slower PC's is all in the code, you've got to refine it to greatest efficiancy. in the old forum i posted a topic about a game mars attaks, (remake of old spin off from space inveders.) and i've now rewriten the tire thing about 12 times and still not got it working properly.

Bogboy2000
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Posted: 10th Nov 2002 23:19
Sorry to Hexgear and indi, Inapropriate content came up when i tride to download ninja scroll and corepatrol.zip fails every time I try and download it ?

indi
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Posted: 11th Nov 2002 05:38
thats odd

http://www.lunarpixel.com/demos.htm

try clicking it from this page

Bogboy2000
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Posted: 11th Nov 2002 23:19
Nope dosen't seem to like that either, i'll try useing a friends computer

but if you go to hotmail.com and sign in as MOB1990 pasword voodoo3 you should be able to download bombers (my very high framerate 2d game) if that doesn't work i'll just E-Mail it to you or something. this is just untill i sort out a website

indi
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Posted: 12th Nov 2002 01:45
it works for everyone else but u mate.

Puffy
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Posted: 12th Nov 2002 02:26
O_O dude i test everything i program on slow machines... i mean sloooooowwwwww... usually my laptop (8mb graphix card)... or my pocketpc (206mhz)... it all works out...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/2.5mbs Sat Con... I joined in!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Nov 2002 04:11
PS2 isn't 128bpp colour... there is no such thing!
highest right now is 48bpp colour, which is used only on high demand graphics cards which are coded specifically for the machines they run on - and there is no intention for home PCs to have it now or anytime in the near future.

the point being is that at 24bit colour our eyes find it hard to distinguish individual colour palettes, and at FULL 32bit colour almost EVERYONE cannot tell differences.
As most processors will do current 4 - 32bit colour strings in a single instruction, upgrading to a colour resolution we wouldn't be able to tell the difference from would just be plain stupid!

you'll find the Playstation2 uses standard 32bpp just like a normal PC Graphics card, only it is Layer Pixel Aliaser allows for the smoothness of the pixels... add this to the fact that it output of 512x384 for standard TVs and 1024x768 for High Definition TVs (multiply the values by 4:3 respectively and divide by 2 for Widescreen mode) and this is what consoles output ... reason for that also is because there is no point in using a resolution that cannot be handled by the TV it is going to.

There is no need to understand Hex to use OpenGL as it is a C/C++ language you just need to understand them and memorise the functions

there appear to be ALOT of misconceptions about the technology used within consoles and that of which the PC can provide ... try to remember that (usually) consoles use something called a RISC processor which means that only a single information string is calculated per cycle, whereas PC's utilise the MISC processor which is capable of mulitple tasks per cycle.

I mean think of consoles as men and PCs as women ...
a console is streamlined for a single objective, you try anything it is remotely unfamilar with or a second task - it'll sit down and mope ... whereas the PC is like 60 tasks, yeah no problem - but every so often breaks down and crys for no reason

Personally i think anyone who makes games shouldn't think about new techology is the new requirements, but as the new limits on what is being developed.
I'm not gonna buy a game that looks like a dog, but i'm also not gonna get one that requires me to fork out for a new bloody upgrade just to play... and although everyone has a powerful processor now - as most games are 3D and rely MORE on the 3D card that is what you're aiming at!
Not the processor but the 3D Card (especially with DB titles)

I can tell you now, there is little to no difference on my DBpro work if i simply take my GeForce2 and put it in my P2-266 becuase DBpro is almost COMPLETELY 3D driven as most games nowadays are ...
relying far to much on the GPU rather than utilising this f*ckin' power processors that are a buck a dozen!!

Quake3 is probably the best example, the engine is actually almost identical to Quake2! the only real difference is its using OpenGL only as the render'r and the graphics are updated (plus format updates but they had to for the new graphics )
Doom3 will no doubt be another example of relying to heavily on new technology rather than programming better for old!

my co-workers are actually quite stunned that through all the features I have gameSpace working faster at rendering 3D than 3DMax with Pentium Optimisations, and the reason for this is because i'm not only using processor optimisations but i'm also using a Reduced Information Stream Routine - which allows me to specify what the graphics card will handle, what the processor will handle and how it is to be handled ... becuase the processor is capable of alot of processes per second, most of which arn't used unless you're using several other programs - as gameSpace IS several other programs in one, all its processes are done through priority and take up these extra spaces per program i have but as priority is to the one which is currently being used the others go into background mode, it means i have ALOT more power for the program

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Bogboy2000
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Posted: 12th Nov 2002 12:18
Woops, sorry my mistake about the ps2 128 bit graphics.

i see what your saying about the RISC and MISC but the new ipod (800mhz) uses the RISC type bios (or something similar) and is a hell of alot faster than a pc at 800 mhz because PC's and MISC stack up hundreds of comands which take the CPU a long time to work through where as MAC wack one caommand through at a time and use all the resources it's got

Point taken about the OpenGL and i'll try to work it in somewhere (somehow)

Thanks for the help

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Nov 2002 23:02
iPod, iMac... blah blah don't use RISC processors
they user PowerPC + 68k processors, which is actually a combination Processor, the PowerPC add the Pentium Sytle updates in RISC form - however the actual processing unit is a far superior MISC processor.

Probably the main reason for the increased speed over similar x86 processors is the fact that 68k uses a for of Dual Processing, so technically works the same as two processor systems however it is all houses within a single unit, this doubles the processing power - however as the motherboard doesn't need to tell the processor what gets processed where, the speed increase is actually considerably more as the whole processing system is all at the same bus speed

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
TheCyborg
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 10:05
The color thing your are talking about is not true Raven...
Goto this url: http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/parhelia/128mb.cfm
or: http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/parhelia/256mb.cfm

Matrox made a graphic card with 10bit GigaColor, as they call it. Also the first card with possibility for 256MB DDR Ram. Three monitors/Dual DVI+TV. This card has existed for some months now. But it's (as you probably guessed) reaaaly expensive.

TheCyborg Development.
http://TheCyborg.Amok.dk
The Ultimate Source To DarkBASIC Programming.
Yarbles
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 14:17
Why should I limit the visual quality of my games just so they should work on your crappy old PC??. I refuse to be held back by people who are too cheap to buy new hardware. It's called progress.. get with it!

The Yellow Jester does not play but gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance in the court of the Crimson King.
hexGEAR
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 14:53
yarbles speaks the truth, theres the a range of pc specifications ranging from the very high spec to the very low spec, your games should be engineered to work within as wide a range as possible starting from the middle but the uppermost and lowermost parts can be ignored (since only few people will have very crap computer and your games will run fine on computers with super specs).

try playing any of the industrial standard games on a crap computer, they will run no doubt but they will have annoying graphics and gameplay would be very slow. These are people that have to research into the different variations in computer specs, in the end, everyone decides to ditch the very crap ones because it could hold them back from making progress and thats what life in the industry is about progressing. I suggest people with crap computers should "at least" try to catch up with the rest of the world.

to live is to suffer, to survive, well, that's to find meaning in the suffering - DMX
Van B
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 14:58
The best route is to make the detail levels adjustable, and supply lower resolution textures too. For example, it's not a big deal to make a custom matrix texture creator. I have one based on VanTRANS that loads in 2 256x256 textures, and you just call it with a function, stating the 2 texture files, and the end resolution. This is a huge consideration for space saving, and having high detail textures for high end machines - yet still making it possible to run on lower end systems cos you can set the texture resolution to anything you want.

The other idea is to make the frame rates less important by using a time system, your physics etc should adjust to the PC's performance, this will make slower PC's appear faster because they'll run at the same speed, only update less smoothly. Most commercial games do this, if you don't, the player notices every lag.

At the end of the day, people have to take optimisation seriously, being really conservative with those special effects and try to code in such a way that they can still run well on a slow system. Particle effects for example, are no good if they drag the FPS down to 6, in that case I'd rather do without particles and settle for a playable game.

I think Quake3 is a bad example though - cos on my old P200 with a 8mb Voodoo2, Quake 3 ran beatifully smooth.


Van-B
pathfinder
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 15:05
Code a game with DBpro for a P200 hehe good one. well here it is.

sync on
do
print "Guide to dishing out program advice - Dont start telling us how to program when you only joined on Nov 8th "
wait 1000
loop

Bogboy2000
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 23:50
Yarbles, take a look at Roller Coaster Tycoon 2, limited graphical quality, yet still an absolutely amazing game, who says you have to have amazig graphics gor good game play, many games that go for a nice look often fail because the shit.

Pathfinder, just because i jioned the forum on the 8th this time round, doesn't mean that I wasen't on the old forum in 2000 (i.e. longer than you think) + i've already made a better game for P166 which runs nice and quickly (see Raven vegeta's review under program anouncements/bombers.

point taken about realy crap computers, and i am actually going to upgrade some time soon when i'v got some money, but like i said abouve RCT2 is a great game and only requires p300 64meg ram and 4meg graphics, which shows that you should limit the quality of you graphics beacuse you will get wraped up in what the game looks like and not what i plays like

Bogboy2000
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Posted: 13th Nov 2002 23:54
forgot to mention you try and make a game with the graphical quality of quake run on a p120 64meg ram and 2meg graphics

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Nov 2002 07:08
the actual processors don't work the colours for them though and they only end up in machines that only companies like Industrial Light & Magic use which have ALL of the hardware run on a specially coded Operating System...
Unix, Windox, BeOS, Sun are incapable of running them due to the fact they only understand 512bits Max at REALTIME speed, and i'm using the term RealTime speed very loosely there!
They only increased the colour capacity on those cards through the setup of just Extending the Ram capabilities to Storing the 64-bit strings waiting to be processed.
The Playstation2 uses a standard 32Bit Colour Table w/Alpha Channel as the processes can be done instantly and several pixel blocks can be calculated per second.

it is exactly how the playstation2 is capable of such speed - especially as it by passes FSAA for the more common Pixel Blend that DirectX prefers

however there is good point here... there is no need to go overboard on graphics and make a game useless to old machine just because you don't see the point.
Not to put a dampner on your ALMIGHTY games plans but ALOT of games players either afford to upgrade thier PC every year to play the latest games OR they purchase games which already won.

If i upgraded ALL of my pc's everytime a new upgrade came out i'd never have enough money for any games at all which kinda would defeat the point in paying out for the upgrades in the first place... you notice ALOT of top end games like Jedi Knight, lost out to Championship Manager simply because Championship Manager could run on even a 486 - this gave them a HUGE market to sell to.

I think when most of you get out into the REAL world sometime, have to pay rent, food bills, electric, TV, Internet Bill, etc... you'll find even a Jnr position as a programmer/artist is gonna leave you bugga all at the end of the month and you'll be preying for developers to stop making you need the brand new GeForce 2005 or whatever that just so happens to be $600 because your parents no longer pay for your bills, upgrades or even internet connection!

Seriously, you think that the Blue Collar market which should be your primary aim is gonna upgrade just for sparkly graphics you've got another thing comming!
Due to my position I have to purchase alot of new systems, leaving even myself without alot of income to spare - i have no where close to ammount of games most of you rich brats have and I never even had alot of that when i was growing up even with games as little as £2.5 brand new!

I think alot of you need to grow up a little and actually consider your end users!
I personally think its sick that most online games REQUIRE Broadband and up until the begining of last year when i lived in the UK broadband was a distant memory, due to the complete inaccessablity and just pure stupid price!

All well and good US developers thinking of what the US are using but they never seem to give a damn about other countries!
Atleast Westwood have always strived to give you the best games on the lowest system specs - with the exception of Earth&Beyond which was built to purely be graphically stunning to pull in the masses as thats what all the MMORPG players want

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
pathfinder
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Posted: 14th Nov 2002 14:59
Ive already seen your cannon game thanks.

why would I want to remake Quake using DB?

Bogboy2000
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Posted: 14th Nov 2002 19:43
so that you can see how hard it is to make an amasing game for a realy low end PC, admitedley it was the best you could get at the time, but the people that made quake did a damn good job considering what they had to work with

I agree with Raven vegeta (sorry for being a fool earlier) that the realy high quality graphics are only available to big companys, for example i saw an article about a new monitor (i can't remember who it's made by + not quite graphics cards but close) 22 inch with a resolution of 3000,2048 (or somthing close to this) and that cost £5000, which is bloody rediculous

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 03:48
hehee... ya know whats even more ridiculous about hardware like that is that it cost almost twice what you pay for the montior to purchase hardware cabable of utilising the intense resolutions, and even more to have drivers and operating systems edited to take advantage of that...

last time i checked industrial light & magic, pixar, squaresoft have ONE for the entire company - everyone else uses standard Unix or WindowsNT/2000 machines which arn't any more powerful than your or my home deals
it is only ever used when actual final rendering happens, and ontop of that final blending as most actual post production work is done on normal computers as well.
Could see it now, the XtraExpensive Box ... now at the low low price of $25,000

panasonic have an outstanding 52" Plasma Screen capable of extreme resolutions, but it achieves them through Blend Pixelation - so every is kinda FSAA'd

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Puffy
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 07:07
O_O the max i will do for old computers is lowering the bit depth... im sorry i have no sympathy

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/2.5mbs Sat Con... I joined in!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 09:27
lowering bitdepth will actually decrease the speed

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
pathfinder
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Posted: 15th Nov 2002 14:19
hmm why would I want to waste hundreds of hours coding to remake quake just so I can see how hard it is? Think I would leave that to the C++ nutters out there. I got better things to do with my time. You talk about graphically stunning games being usless. Well how usless is a remake of quake then?

TheCyborg
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Posted: 16th Nov 2002 00:32
Setting my bitdepth higher will actually make my computer so slow that it is useless, because i've got an very very old comp.

TheCyborg Development.
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The Ultimate Source To DarkBASIC Programming.
EdzUp
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Posted: 16th Nov 2002 10:06
One thing here is the PS2 (and most other consoles for that matter) use TV's for displays (this blurs the picture and makes the gfx look better), PC's on the other hand have to use monitors this mean they have a crystal clear image and some resolutions on them look shoddy (look at 320x200 on an XT compared to a P3 ).

Also the highest Bit depth we have ATM is 64bit =) (NVidia are releasing a card in the coming year that supports it =) )

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Nov 2002 12:45
highest bitdepth is technically is 48bit, and in reality is 32bit it is possible for others ... however you require custom drivers for this. My Quattro's are capable of 64bit, 96bit and 128bit colour ... but this is with the special 64bit update driver (not detonator) and also you need a 64bit OS Partition Installation.
However if you do use anything over 48bit the whole machine becomes a ticking timebomb like WinME and will crash on demand.
Just because something is capable doesn't mean it is used, and the point there was about the PS2 being 128bit colour which is just as stupid as PC's using it, because we can't see the difference ... just like anything over 120FPS, the computer is possible of this however we can't see that many and makes it just pointless no?
The main difference between FPS and ColourBits is it takes alot to calculate anything but multiples of 24bit colour, but the figures FOR the higher colours oftenly are subject to crashing especially as 128bit colour and such require a _int64 Double Float which on almost every CPU is a VERY slow operational value, mainly because of the 64bit Cores of processors.

I still work daily in 32bit, i need the stability and speed ... i'm not going to work with values i'm incapable of veiwing, sorry but that seems like a blind man making a painting

as you can cram in 4x the amount of pixel which means 4x faster rendering, you can expect not to see people use the higher colours (although no doubt people trying to go for graphically outstanding titles will.. just morons really) ...

and i agree, if i were you path finder try to recreate Quake in DB - it certainly is remarkable for the speed and onscreen polygons. C++'s oftenly don't start with stuff like Quake as it isn't for newbies to coding, it is ALOT of work and if you can pull it off would give you a very fast game
I'm sure DB is capable of 2,000 polygons onscreen at once. Leave a nice amount of power for AI and such

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Bogboy2000
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Posted: 16th Nov 2002 22:39
I use 16bpp because my voodoo3 doesn't support higher (damn, damn, damn) but it does push high FPS (bought Aliens V Preditors, and the alien attack was just a blur)

I tell you again a remake of quake realy would show your ability as a programer and show you just what you can achive even for the lowest of lowere end PC's, quake is infact a graphically stunning game and if you get the OpenGL patch (thing) it doesn't actually look a huge amount worse than quake 3

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