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Geek Culture / Social game development and DBP user locations

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Fallout
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 30th Nov 2009 11:41
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I was thinking yesterday, the main problem I have with game development is losing motivation. We all know this is a problem, and very few of us can maintain that motivation until the end of a project.

Some people, including myself, can get extra motivation from working in a team online. When I know I'm working with someone who is equally passionate about the game, and is assisting me with it, it encourages me to keep going. The problem with this is, it can also bring unwelcome pressure to work when you don't want to, to avoid letting the other members down. You log onto your email when you get home from work, to find a message saying "Have you managed to include that model I finished yet? I really want to see it in the game!". All you really want to do is chill and watch tele, but you feel pressured to work on the game. Now it's changed from being fun to being a chore.

So what's the solution? Well, I can't help thinking the best solution is to work with people on a game in person. I think if I had mates who were into game dev, and I could invite them round at the weekend for a day of development on 'Death Dealer: Limb Hacking Mayhem' then it'd work so much better ...

1. Communication is better. You're working together in the same room, drawing design pictures, having discussions, and showing people stuff as you go along, changing things on the fly.

2. It's more social. Rather than sitting lonely in your room like a sad hermit, you're with 1 or more mates, having a laugh as you go. Maybe you're slightly less productive, but it's more fun! More like a LAN party.

3. It's pre-organised. You all agreed to meet up and work on the game. You all want to be there working on it. If you don't want to work that saturday on the game, you don't meet up. People can still work on the game in their own time by themselves, but nobody feels pressure to do any work, unless they're with the group.

So what's the point of the thread? Well, I think it's important to work out what makes game dev fun, and for me, I think this would make it massively better. What do you guys think? I'd encourage people who happen to know other game devers nearby to hook up (within the realms of social safety of course), and give it a try. If I had any DBPers or modellers nearby to me, I'd be up for meeting for a drink, seeing if we kick it off and then potentially setting up a game dev team.

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Peter H
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 11:54
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I definitely agree, I've done some in-person team development before and it's MILES ahead of trying to get things done together over the internets.

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 11:56 Edited at: 30th Nov 2009 12:01
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I have the exact some problem...I worked in a team before...more than once and well...I suck at it. I'm much more motivated to do other things. It sucks really. Though I've never been able to get into a group with mates outside of the internet. The only people I know who develop games for fun, I don't actually like. For writing I do pretty much what you're describing - well it's not collaborative writing, but sitting in a group with a target and the atmosphere really helps the mood for getting work done - I'm actually off to do this in a couple of hours. Though tangents can ensue...

But hey, I suppose it's kind of like writer's block, my friend said to me yesterday, "there's no such thing as writer's block, it's not that you can't write, it's that you won't write". Maybe what she said is true for programming? I'll know for certain I'll never say, "but I've got writer's block" again.

However...what might work, is if you are on the internet at the exact time when you're free, you can motivate each other and talk to each others about progress. So you have a mini deadline - what you want done before you log out. I've never tried this, but it's not as if you can say, "oh but I want to watch TV", because the guy on the other end will say, "get back here you worm! TV can wait...who cares if Phil's come back from the dead...again...on Eastenders? It's just trash anyway."


Though I wonder...for unmotivated lazy people like us, would it be better to have managerial position...isn't that just essentially outsourcing your work to other people?

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 12:02
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I wish I could. I'd be all over that if I lived in the the States or GB. As it is I live in Germany which reduces my possible contacts to 0.

I agree that seeing people face to face would help with motivation. Of course, this wouldn't matter if everyone involved was a slacker and just wanted to play games instead of work. I used to work on games with a friend while I was in high school. Our stuff wasn't much good but we definitely got work done.

Something that motivates me is the fact that I spend money on every game I make. I either commision custom work or buy media. The lesson here is that money can take the place of friends


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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 12:17
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Quote: "money can take the place of friends"


You bitter twisted lonely man.

Cash - 'Here kid. I'll give you a dollar to get lost.'

@Seppuku

The thing about being online at the same time would be better. If you're both logged into Skype, having a chat, and have some good communication methods (to exchange diagrams and source code etc), it would be better. But for me personally, working in person would be significantly better. For one thing, I live with friends, and if I had a mate round and we were making a game, it'd be a social thing that my housemates could get involved with. Also, they wouldn't disturb me so much. If I'm on a headset talking to people online, I will be more distracted by the real people in my house, and they will have less respect for what I'm doing (i.e. they're more likely to interrupt me).

I agree with Cash though, you both need to have a good work ethic. I'm quite well placed in that, I am largely bored with playing games. It's one of the things that drives me to make games, because I want to innovate to change the standard formulas of modern games. So I won't be distracted by the playstation or playing games on the LAN. I think if you can find a like minded person, with the same passion and priorities, then it'd work well.

I remember someone once made a DBP map type thing, where users put their locations on it. Does anyone know if that still exists?

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Mike Inel
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 12:51
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In a way, I agree with Cash Curtis...

One motivation to complete a project: Money.
It motivates people to finish their job cuz they'll get paid for it.
And the producer will get motivated to finish the project cuz he/she'll get money from the sales...
It may be a sad observation, but sometimes it's true...

Well, money can be too straight-to-the-point. But maybe we can replace it with "reward"...
It could be fame, pride, respect, help, advantage, trade, friends, or still, money...

This is just my opinion though. I could always be wrong on this...

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BearCDP
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 13:21
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I am absolutely with you on this, Fallout.

When I would work with my friends in jr. high and high school, we'd dedicate a weekend to locking ourselves into one of our bedrooms with 3 or 4 computers, letting the mountains of Dr. Pepper cans pile up, and getting stuff done. Granted, what we got done was not very pretty, but it was DONE! Which is more than I can say for many endeavors started since then.

Now, I'm on the other coast away from the guys I used to code with, and I'm struggling to find people interested in game development at my college. If anybody lives within a reasonable distance of New York City and want to collaborate, please email me!

Online sort of works, but it's often too easy to see that email you mentioned in your inbox and say, "Weeelllll, he doesn't know where I live, so I can ignore this for a couple of weeks while I get some other stuff done." Speaking of which--hey Seppuku, remember Strawberry Crush? I've still got a fraction of a jungle level theme sitting on my hard drive and webspace.

Perhaps we can start a project, or site that hosts multiple projects. The whole purpose of the website will be to post progress, and then when progress becomes slow, it will notify everyone and we can all swoop in with posts like "What's the deal, man? You're falling behind!!!"

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 13:28
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Here is the map that Fallout mentioned:
http://rickvanners.blogspot.com/2007/07/map-for-tgc-users.html
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 13:33 Edited at: 30th Nov 2009 13:36
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Sorry Bear! I'm nowhere near you! I think I'm closer to Sep by about 8 squillion miles, but still 2.8 squillion miles away from Sep. The glory of the Internet - bringing people apart.

@Jeff - Thanks for that! It seems to be taking AGES to load though. I wonder if it's worth making a new google map type thing with people located on it.

Edit: I think it makes sense to change my long standing legoland smashing location, and put my actual one on too.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 15:31
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Quote: "Speaking of which--hey Seppuku, remember Strawberry Crush? I've still got a fraction of a jungle level theme sitting on my hard drive and webspace."


Yes...good times. Back when I was a newb. The first of team projects I've been in that's failed. Still, it was a sound game plan, and it would be very cool if Rush returned. I think most people got lazy more than anything.

But the online thing might work only if you were on like an IM or Skype as Fallout mentioned, so you could get on with the work and feedback to each other as you're working. It might be a useful motivation thing. One person will have to say, "this is when we're doing it, and we'll do it." A bit more assertion and not a "oh you can do it when you like", because people often have an ethic of 'oh, I can do it later'.

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 16:19
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But Sep, when you pressure people into getting stuff done, it stops being fun. That's why I personally think the "We will get it done by x" mentality doesn't work well. While it may work in the short term, it's only a certain amount of time until you can't be arsed meeting deadlines in your hobby-life anymore.

However, I think that's totally reasonable if you use the Cash Curtis technique of getting cash involved (his name makes more sense every day) and paying people for freelance work.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 16:49
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Well, I suppose in a way, it's adding a little discipline - not too much pressure, but a "I must get this done, so make me get this done" thing. Just generally help each other be more focused and stay organised. I don't see it spoiling 'fun'.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 17:16
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I also offer a bonus for timely work. To be honest (forget I said this everyone) I always pay the bonus if I receive the work. I've never had a problem, thus far. I've never even had to bug anyone for anything either.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 17:37
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Quote: "But Sep, when you pressure people into getting stuff done, it stops being fun. That's why I personally think the "We will get it done by x" mentality doesn't work "


Then it just becomes work, not a hobby. And it's hard when your boss says this needs to be done in 6 months and you have no idea how long it could really take you, which means you'll end up spending more than 6 months.


> SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
> 0 rows returned
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 20:50
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Some hobbies require some work, I mean Karate used to be a hobby of mine and designated Karate times were Monday, Wednesday and Friday evenings, for building up to a grading, we had to put lot of work into our training.

Essentially I was designating a time to train. Likewise for running my Storytelling group. What's wrong with designating a time in the week for you to work together? And then setting a target for that session?

It doesn't have to be like going to work and where you have to meet those deadlines and bust yourself in effort to meet them, just have it so you're more motivated.

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 21:14
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I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach, but it works differently for different people. I personally would want to wing it. I'd want my mate to give me a call and suggest a time I could decline (or maybe even accept!!!!) and vice versa. I wouldn't want it set in stone, because I might have other things on, or have had a hard day at work, or just want to kick back and watch a DVD.

I guess the approach I'm imagining here is one where the fun takes precedence over project success. The hanging out and messing about is more important than getting the job done. Never choose to work when you'd rather be doing something else. I only hope that would lead to success, because whenever you choose to work together on the game, you really want to be there.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 21:53 Edited at: 30th Nov 2009 21:55
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@Fallout -
If the two people working together are both talented and self motivated, that would be a killer combination. I think that it would be naturally fun.

I mentioned earlier, I have a friend that I used to do that with. He kind of grew up, I kind of didn't. Here I am still making commercially sub par games with gusto. When we did it we fed off of each other and it was indeed... fun. We did plenty of other things, nothing was set in stone. That really what was good about working together, we were never at odds about it but we always got it done.

If I had someone now that I could work on a game with as an equal we'd be unstoppable. What I could do in 4 days we'd do in 3

Big indie teams don't work. I think that the most efficient combination would be two talented self-and-jointly-motivated programmer/artists that were willing to outsource as much of their art as was practical. Two cooks can work in one kitchen, more than that and you're just too crowded to produce anything good.


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BearCDP
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 02:57 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2009 02:57
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The idea of two people with some complementary and overlapping skill sets working toward a similar vision is immensely appealing to me as well.

I'm with Sep though in that I like such a relationship to introduce some discipline. Recently I scored a documentary a friend of mine was making, and occasionally receiving text messages or emails from her would definitely get my rear in gear. It ended up being a great exercise in learning to produce quickly.

Now I'm beginning to think an alternative for people who don't have a lot of people nearby to work with at all, let alone like-minded people, that it may be beneficial to have some sort of a game dev collective. Now, I understand that sites such as our beloved TGC forums, TIGsource, etc. sort of fulfill this purpose, but I feel they're too big.

With a smaller group of developers, you can really learn a lot more directly from each other, and because you'll develop a closer relationship with other people in the collective there's more of an incentive to provide meaningful feedback rather than the typical "looks kewl, i downloaded it" you're likely to receive. I personally don't have any games completed that be worth showing in such an environment (YET), but I imagine if I were in the position some of you guys were in, I'd tend to value the focused critique more that this sort of environment would lend itself to.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 06:21
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google.com/wave anyone? I've really been wanting to brain storm something with someone in google wave... but it doesn't seem like anyone from the invite thread is logging on... >.>

Anyways, i don't think that meeting in person is really a big deal for programming teamwork... although i really don't have much experience on that front. A couple hours working on a simple program with someone i met through steam...

I think a better generalization of this topic would be communication in general (google wave).

Right now i'm working to build up my c++ and java skills, and math as it relates to programming. Once i have a repertoire of functional, interesting, user friendly, and (most importantly) working demos, i definitely plan on starting a project.

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Fallout
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 10:01
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What you're talking about Bear is elitism! A community that actively discriminates and excludes the weak, in favour of a close knit elite who spit on everyone else, calls them names, and mocks them with bitter tones of contempt! I am most definitely in!

Actually, I do think that sort of community would be the way forward. Where 'team requests' aren't frowned upon, because everyone there has respect for others, and understands the implications of asking for someone elses time, AND understands the magnitude of what they're undertaking.

How about this for a suggestion ...

A small community of respected individuals. Perhaps invitation only. Each person is welcome to have 1 open project at any one time. Everybody has a WiP, meaning their ideas are never pushed to one side in favour of someone elses project. The small community can dip in and out of each person's WiP, assisting them with work where requested, when they fancy taking on a challenge. We'd all be helping each other out and collaborating in a much more personal and effective way.

Hmmmmmm. Doesn't get me to the holy grail of working with mates in person, but the idea of that approach does motivate me. Knowing there's a community that knows my work intimately and is capable of helping me, and also values, and would make good use of, my help, is an attractive concept.

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Profit
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2009 01:55 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2009 02:00
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Anyone live in Illinois in general, and in/near the city of Chicago in particular?

If so, I would like to arrange a meeting with you to discuss games in general, and making games in particular.

Respond.


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Outscape
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2009 02:02
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i only loose interest when i run out of things that i can do without spending days rocking forward and backwards in my seat trying to do implement a new feature.



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BearCDP
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2009 06:11
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Quote: "A small community of respected individuals. Perhaps invitation only. Each person is welcome to have 1 open project at any one time. Everybody has a WiP, meaning their ideas are never pushed to one side in favour of someone elses project. The small community can dip in and out of each person's WiP, assisting them with work where requested, when they fancy taking on a challenge. We'd all be helping each other out and collaborating in a much more personal and effective way."


I like it!
Is Google Wave feasible for this? I played around with it and it sort of confused and disoriented me. Maybe Google Groups or Google Sites? There's also netcipia, which is sort of nifty but has been slow recently.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2009 07:12
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BearCDP2, google wave is kinda disorienting, but once you get a conversation going, it gets a lot easier to figure out.

An invite-only community of programmers does sound great. If it gets going, productivity might go through the roof. Comments from others are a great motivator, and if most people in the community were active, knowledgeable members (since it's invite only), there would be a lot of C&C.

Does anyone wanna actually give this a shot then? I'd be in (unless of course i'm not invited )

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BearCDP
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2009 22:50
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Count me as interested. I think maintaining a Google Site, allowing each member a project page and their own announcements page (for updates and comments) would work well.

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Tom J
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2009 23:28
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I have a vague idea of a couple of members that live near me, although most are inactive members

---

On this idea, it is not bad at all. If there was actually a very strong sense of collaboration in which users actually did contribute with one another in terms of media, programming and game design ideas, then quite a lot could be managed. So basically I imagine whenever somebody in the group faced a problem with their project, somebody could help them out. And in exchange, that person could free up some time to help the other guy out with a media issue. It faces the disadvantage of a small scale, but the few users present would know the ins and outs of each others projects, which would be a great communal spirit

Although how elite this elite would be is a problem, who gets in? Whoever asks, whoever has had completed projects on show, only the true best in their field on game design? That could pose a problem since I would imagine lots of people would want in, or feel worthy enough to want in.
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BearCDP
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 00:48
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I don't think this necessarily needs to be about elitism. Of course, within this community you will want members to have a certain level of competency in programming or other fields, but that doesn't mean that people who are deemed as not ready to contribute fully can't go and start their own private communities with people of a similar skill level.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 00:59
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I'm definitely willing to give this a shot.

So... should we use mostly google-related assets for starting this up? Google sites for the main page, google wave for brainstorming sessions, and (maybe) google code for hosting?

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Tom J
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 01:01
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Fair enough, I think I probably took Fallouts comment on board too literally, since it wasn't mentioned anywhere else
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MSon
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 01:03 Edited at: 4th Dec 2009 01:04
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This sounds like a good idea, but i guess it would depend on location, But Im in Manchester, UK, and don't know anyone thats a capable programmer\moddeler, ect, Anyway, my speciallity isn't in game dev, but in creating editors and developers tools.

At one point i was making a game with one of my brothers who i got into darkbasic, but then he moved to nottingham for his job.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 06:45
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Combining Sites and Wave sounds like a good idea, but my issue with Google Code is that it requires an open-source license. I have no problem sharing my code, but I might want to reserve the right to be the exclusive distributor of my game in case I want to sell it. And Cash Curtis is already selling his games, so Google might kick us out of that option.

It's a bummer, because it's nice that Google Code offers subversion and Mercurial/Git/Bazaar repositories. However, I think we'll be safe just using the File Cabinet in Sites, or if enough people work on a project to warrant source control, there's always alternative repository hosting solutions. It may be as simple as setting up a Subversion server in your own house (that's what I'm doing right now--go to school and code in NYC, backup code to Phoenix), or if you have your own webspace your provider may allow Subversion repositories (I know that Dreamhost does).

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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 07:20 Edited at: 4th Dec 2009 07:27
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Quote: "Though I wonder...for unmotivated lazy people like us, would it be better to have managerial position...isn't that just essentially outsourcing your work to other people?"


Ohh my, yes, those CEOs and directors of major corporations, yep, they get paid lots and lots of sqindulees because they are unmotivated lazy people, they pay them more just to annoy the hired help. You will be doing more work and need more motivation and more smarts, not less. Not making a model texture, codes etc now and again, then sneaking off for a crafty fag from work, or watching some TV, or net surfing naughties if at home on an amateur project, also calls for the most disgusting and frightening word known to the modern generation of the 21st century, a mod may need to censor this word, it may cause offense, here goes- 'responsibility'.

The 3Ds Quizz
What are the 3 words beginning with D, needed for success, it will be too difficult for the lazy and unmotivated to solve this one.

Franky I personally find it hard to get people to finish what they start and that's paying people, as for free work, amateur projects, I would not even bother, they will not get it done, its nearly impossible to move them, personally I find people from countries with a lower standard of wealth than the west to be very motivated to fulfill contracts, they want to work and are ambitious and polite in my experience, outsourcing to these places will only get bigger in the future, I think the middle classes in the west may be in for a shock in the future.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 08:03 Edited at: 4th Dec 2009 08:16
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Determination, Discipline, Dashing good looks.



[EDIT]fallen one, every time I read one of your posts I want to play Zombie Pigs! Do you have it up for download somwhere?

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 08:53
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Interesting ideas shooting around this thread. If something gets started then I might lend something to the mold.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 09:46
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An 'elite' forum has actually been done. I believe it included most DBP members here you'd expect. The details are hazy, but I recall it being focused toward serious questions by serious users as opposed to the vague newcommer questions we get here like 'how do i make a character and make him walk and fight and have magic and transform into a robot and dance in an mmorpg'.

I only visited once or twice. There just wasn't much activity there.

It would be interesting if the focus was on projects. However, projects take forever and good new ones rarely enough get started much less finished. It's a good idea nonetheless.


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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Dec 2009 11:35
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You're right Cash. I remember that forum. TDK ran it I think, and I may have even been a mod there. You're right too, it was quite inactive.

The problem with 'elite' forums is people who know what they're doing rarely ask questions. I have probably asked less than 10 DBP questions in the last 3 or 4 years. Also, this will always be a better place for idle banter, because there are more people here and also more unproductive people with more time on their hands!

So the forum idea here will most likely fail. As Cash has said, it's been done before, and it didn't really work. There were some good discussion on ideas like advanced particle engines, and how you might go about making meshes on the fly and stuff. Becky did most of the talking, if I remember rightly, because she had the most experience. But ultimately, it didn't achieve anything we couldn't have achieved here, except for keeping out disruptive sorts. These days the mod squad here does well to keep the disruptive contingent at bay.

So think we'd have to lock down exactly what we wanted to achieve, otherwise it'd be another ill thought out idea that'll never get anywhere.

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fallen one
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Posted: 5th Dec 2009 02:30 Edited at: 5th Dec 2009 02:33
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Quote: "[EDIT]fallen one, every time I read one of your posts I want to play Zombie Pigs! Do you have it up for download somwhere?"


I made it up for a laugh, its just a banner, but, I may actually make it, at the moment I am a bit busy. Ive got 4 apps to submit to the iphone store, Ive just contracted out one, then Ive got a whole bunch of free app games that I need to contract out for to finish off a bit of coding for me. Then after that I think Ill have a look at that new fangled Unity engine.

But then, after that, I may just whip something up (Ive got most of the content bar a character to alter into a pig face and a baby model to decrease in the polycount and import into fpsc), Id like to test out something I saw that lets you play any game in a browser, so that's something Id think of doing for FPSC zombie pigs, the only trouble with fpsc is that it uses all those blummin textures to create the lighting in the game, that makes a game huge in file size and so a little impractical, I think Lee should implement a lower spec lighting variant, perhaps using the technique they used for the original Doom where they faked lighting, at least it would keep the file size down. Either that, or I just keep the levels small, Id like to keep the game down under 200mb if its feasable, so it would have to be small arenas, I may have to go for no lighting if it cant be kept down to a reasonable file size, though if its played in a browser I could have the screen small, 640x480 maximuim).

Blummin Pervert http://www.avantivitastudios.com/
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BearCDP
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Posted: 6th Dec 2009 10:15 Edited at: 6th Dec 2009 10:16
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@fallen one
In-browser would be pretty cool, link it in your sig when you've got your WIP up!

As for the group idea:

IIRC, the TDK forum lacked a lot of focus. It was more just like TGC++. Of course, we would have to understand that naturally it wouldn't get updated as frequently as some boards since it's a smaller group of people, but I don't think it would be too unrealistic to expect some number of posts/messages per week/month to show some sort of progress or participation.

Remember that this is not about separating the men from the boys, but rather collaborative encouragement and discipline with more focus and filter than you'd get on a larger forum like TGC, TIGSource, Gamedev, IndieGamer, etc.

I think we would reasonably need and expect the following:

Frequency of post requirements, that could scale leniently of course (say you don't post for a while because you're making a big update)

Contributing quantifiable content to other users' projects - whether it's media, part of a design doc, an algorithm, or whatever

Schedule regular Skype/Wave/whatever communication service "Jams"--in order to simulate the notion of working with a team, you would sporadically post progress of your game.
Example:

This isn't quite the same as bedroom coding with your friends, but it may establish a similarly encouraging and helpful work environment.

Because there will be regular updates, there must also be regular feedback with similar frequency requirements

Private pages which contain the discussions and collaboration amongst members, but also a public space showcasing the work of the collective's members

I know these bullets mention requirements, but in reality it's not like we'll spend the time writing our own custom forum expansions to accomodate this. This kind of community will need to require participation in order to not dissolve quickly, but the purpose of the group will always be to serve its members rather than follow some arbitrary membership requirements.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 8th Dec 2009 05:09
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Is there a bamp in the house?

Game Design, Audio, and Music Blog
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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 8th Dec 2009 10:25
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I like the idea, I'm just not sure how well it would work out or stay together. We'd need some kind of collaboration tool (if Google would hurry up and get Wave released, that would help) to be effective, I think.


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