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Geek Culture / Best genre for an indi game to generate sales?

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 19:37 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 19:41
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I was thinking about this today. Just doing some quick sums on what it would take to make a living as an indi game dev. Here are my simplified sums ...

- For argument sake, my game will be priced at £5.
- I would want £25k as my annual salary (pre-income tax, national insurance etc, so I can ignore those taxes from calculation).
- The additional tax to consider would be VAT, at 15% (have a missed anything?)
- 15 of £5 is 75p. Each game is then £4.25 to me.
- Assuming no expenses (media, premises etc). My £25k salary covers my food/living expenses etc. as my current salary does!

So that all comes down to:
- £25000 / 4.25 = 5882.35 (sales per year)
- / 365 = 16.11 (sales per day)

Easy .... I think .... if I make an awesome game!


So onto the subject of awesome games. The first and most important question is, which genre sells best in the indi game market? Here are a few of my thoughts ...

FPS
Don't bother. You will never compete with the AAA titles.

MMORPG
See above! I guess an extremely novel concept might give you a chance, but attainability is extremely low, and we're thinking about very low expenditure games here.

Platformer
Again, all over consoles and impossible to compete here. I think Drew's Dumbo and Cool showed this market is weak.

Web Based Games
Unsaleable really. Ad driven, perhaps, but that's a different approach, so I'm not including that here.

Simulator Games
Simulate something people are interested in, and you could be onto a winner. Find a niche. Something like "Moon Walk" simulator. To 99.9% of people, it would be crap. But that still leaves 6,000,000 people in the world who'd be nerdy space geeks and would be interested in playing your game. KA-CHING avenue 1.

RPG Games
Forget graphically impressive games. If you go for immersion, story lines and characters, from a topdown type perspective, you're in with a shot. Again, 95% of gamers wouldn't look twice. 4% would look twice and hate it. 1% would be intrigued and are your potential customer base. I remember reading an article about an indi game developer who makes $120k/year from selling such crappy RPG games, because of their quirky and unique nature that appeals to a small subset of gamers.


So, I think the trick is to find a genre where graphical presentation is not the only factor. If it has a characteristic that can be exploited to be unique, then you have a chance. Then you just need to capitalise on it, do everything else as best you can, and then rigorously target that small minority of potential customers. And also, accept you will NEVER be rich. AND, make a genuinely good game. You will never sell indi tat.

So what do you guys think?

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 19:45
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With respect;

Quote: "16.11 sale a day...Easy .... I think .... if I make an awesome game!"


1 sale a day, of any online product, is quite difficult to achieve. I run a lot of websites for a lot of people - some of them selling products which are extremely sought after. One site in paticular gets 1,500 targetted uniques a day. It sells about one unit every 2 days.

Even assuming in 1 in 500 visitors bought your game - and even that is a generous sell through rate, you'd need to get 8,000 people playing your game every day.

The solution would be the do it for a few years and have a few dozen games. From one game, the numbers you speka of would be difficult to achieve.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 19:47
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By the way Fallout, I am considering the same scheme you are. I've got a kind of road map for the year laid out.

Multi platform is a MUST for a commercially succesful indie. Which I think is unwelcome news for DBP developers.

Of all the publishers I went to, the chief reason for me being turned away was lack of Mac compatibility.

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 19:58 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 20:05
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@Drew

Yes Drew! I definitely agree here. The model I looked at before, the guy had to build up a fan base over a period of time, and was onto the $120k figure after several years (3 or 4, if I remember rightly), and 4 or 5 releases. Initially, he made bugger all.

So yes, you've highlighted a major simplification. But also proposed a solution; Make a game that can have sequels, to keep hold of a fan base and increase sales over time. This indirectly points to RPGs, although can be applied to other genres. EDIT: I think seeing several titles available to buy, for an RPG series, would add to it's appeal too. It shows the world isn't a one hit wonder indi, and will expand as you play through it.

You've also highlighted the need for marketing and maximizing hits on your website. You'll need a strategy here.

But the only point I disagree on here, is the 1 in 500 visitors buying your game. I reckon you could get that figure down dramatically by targeting a niche and coming up with a novel concept. If your game is unique, and the people trying it and looking for that unique characteristic, and can't find it anywhere else, so long as it's polish and genuinely good, I think you can have a higher success rate.

I'll go back to the "Space Walk" crappy idea ... if everyone who tries your demo is a NASA geek, and loves space stuff, where else are they going to get to Space Walk? If the answer is nowhere, then I think you can increase sales.

With respect to your game, you had the novel concept of two characters working together. But essentially you still have a platformer, which is extremely competitive, and had lots of counterparts to be judged against. I think you chose the right genre to make something attainable, and you did a wicked job, but you also chose an area I think (but only with the hindsight of your attempt) is too difficult to succeed in.

Edit: Sorry Drew, I misread your figures. I realise you meant 1 in 500 visitors to the site, but I thought you meant people who play the demo. Yes, you are right here. You definitely need to get a SIGNIFICANT amount of hits. This would be a major problem.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:05
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I agree,

But consider - by choosing a niche, even if you cut down your sell through rate to 1 in 100 (and that IS being generous for anything man) ... you're going to have a smaller market to sell to.

There are only so many NASA geeks for instance, even if they are more willing to buy.

I'm not being skeptical cause of Dumbow & Cool - I'm just telling it like I see it across the board with any online product. Games are probably even harder to sell than the other products I am basing my number of 1 in 500 being generous on. Because games are a luxury, when it comes down to it.

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:07
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See my edit above. I misread your comment about site hits, and thought you meant demo plays.

Yes, I think you need to get a massive throughput of visitors to your site. This is a completely different problem that I'm no expert on solving, but I have the feeling it'd involve lots of ye ol' coin!

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David R
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:15 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 20:18
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I don't really think genre matters.

Obviously some genres have 'built in' markets that make it easier - but if you look at some successful indie games, they're all over the board in terms of genre - from RTS/simulation (Darwinia - Introversion), puzzle games (World of Goo - 2d boy) Adventure (Fatale - Tales of Tales) even music games (Audiosurf) etc.

I think it's all to do with how you use the genre rather than what the genre is. For example, Introversion could have failed miserably if Darwinia was just a generic war RTS. But as it was - an RTS taking place inside a computer, with a novel graphic style - it stood out.

EDIT: Really Darwinia is sort of a hybrid RTS / schmup-esque game but the example is still relevant

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Melancholic
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:26
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Its an intresting concept, i once though up of something simmilar. I concluded that finding a niche is the best possible thing for a devoted indie developer.

Although i also thought that developing for younger audiences would be an intresting idea, think about it, the people who buy the games, the parents arnt going to look at reviews and such. And its not that hard of a genre to develop for, the game cant be too hard, the graphics arnt too hard to develop and effects arnt needed that much
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David R
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:30 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 20:31
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Just something I'd like to point out also:

Quote: "Don't bother. You will never compete with the AAA titles."


^ is the wrong attitude. Yes, you'll never compete with the AAA tittles on graphics. But you need to find a way around it (and this goes for any genre, not just FPSes).

Look at what Introversion is doing with their WIP city simulator. It's entirely wireframe/procedural. It won't compete with the likes of SimCity on visual detail or the quality of the graphics - but it still looks freaking amazing

Fight the battle against AAA games on your own terms - don't try and beat them at their own game (which is, quite frankly, just graphics at the moment)

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:31
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Quote: "- For argument sake, my game will be priced at £5.
- I would want £25k as my annual salary (pre-income tax, national insurance etc, so I can ignore those taxes from calculation).
- The additional tax to consider would be VAT, at 15% (have a missed anything?)
- 15 of £5 is 75p. Each game is then £4.25 to me.
- Assuming no expenses (media, premises etc). My £25k salary covers my food/living expenses etc. as my current salary does!"


Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you wouldn't have to pay VAT on your stuff unless you made over £65,000 a year.

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demons breath
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 20:44
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Quote: "the people who buy the games, the parents arnt going to look at reviews and such"

Let's be honest, most people I know over a certain age wouldn't buy an indie game for their kids, they would always go with a big company just because they naturally assume it would be more reliable. The majority of parents probably aren't even net-savvy enough to find the title let alone actually evaluate the pros and cons... (Just speaking from personal experience here, but I know my parents and my friends' parents would stick with amazon, ebay and big shops if they were buying something for my little sisters, and go with something with a good brand recognition and decent reviews)

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 21:10
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Quote: "Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you wouldn't have to pay VAT on your stuff unless you made over £65,000 a year."


No idea mate. I think you're probably better placed to answer that one , than me. That can only be a good thing if that's true though.


Quote: "Fight the battle against AAA games on your own terms - don't try and beat them at their own game (which is, quite frankly, just graphics at the moment)"


Yes, I agree ... on both counts. AAA games are all about the graphics, and we can't really compete there. Also yes, we could make an FPS and compete with AAA titles, if we could massively innovate. But to be honest, with the effort that goes into those games, if you came up with an idea that was truly great and innovative, I think it'd be copied extremely quickly in the popular market. So you would have to exploit that idea as fast as possible.

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YavinB
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 21:36 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 21:39
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Platformer. Ex. Super Mario Galaxy Then RPG.
EDIT: Might be FPS. More Hard Core Gamers out there then gamers like me.

If it involves money I'm in. (only if it Benefits me)
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Diggsey
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 22:22 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 22:22
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I think you'd have to make something either completely unique and interesting (such as World of Goo), or just an extremely good implementation of a well-known and loved idea. (BaboViolent 2)


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 22:29
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I read an article on CNN.com about creativity and entrepreneurship. Experts say that creativity is up to 80% learned. So even if you haven't got something now, it's not the end of the world. Just try and bring unusual ideas together, think outside the box, and associate things in ways that most people won't. That's the key.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 22:30 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 22:35
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I agree with that. One idea / creation begins a chain reaction.

And one other thing - it's tempting to do what other people do, like if you see 1,000 hosting companies out there - just set one up and it'll make money, right?

I know how cliched this is - but the key to succeeding is either to do something nobody has ever done before, or to do something absolutely better than anybody has done before. The first option is far easier!

Fallout: I'm giving my games dev etc a second chance, and still sticking with Milk Paton as I believe they are both slowly coming to fruition. I regret stopping games dev for the period I did, but it's not too late to pick up the pieces.

http://geniustypes.com/exponential_growth_of_money_and_success/

This is a fascinating article. If I had stuck with my games dev since 2005, I'd have about 10 more titles out by now and I guarantee I would be making some pennies. The above model is so true, its crazy how you can stick with a project for a few years and then it suddenly comes to life and starts generating real money. Examples include my web design business - I now make a pretty decent income and never advertise, yet still get business.

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Sid Sinister
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I disagree with every one of your categories analysis.

Arcade/Platform games are the bees knees right now for iPhone and XBLA. Steam also does very well with them.

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David R
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Quote: "Arcade/Platform games are the bees knees right now for iPhone and XBLA. Steam also does very well with them."


Just as something becomes popular, it means it will become stagnant. Everyone will jump on the band-wagon, diluting the market and making it so none of the games (except the very top-of-the-top) will make money. It's the same thing that happened to iPhone games: the first few that set the trends made the money. After that (when everyone and their dog started to make games) the market exploded in quantity and so plummeted in value.

Either get in early or don't bother ("If you follow in the path of others you leave no footprints")

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 23:06 Edited at: 7th Dec 2009 23:07
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Depends on the platform.
I think at the moment if you were to produce a very nice quiz game for the 360, it would probably sell like hotcakes. (With the success of 1 vs 100 and the success of Buzz quiz on the PS3)
"Scene it", is a bit naff, and with 1vs100 only on for a few weeks at a time, a decent quiz game would dominate the market.

I really do think puzzles/quizzes/party games are making a big come back on consoles.


At the moment, my friends and I set aside time every night to play the 1vs100 quiz, leaving games like MW2 and AC2 to collect dust.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 7th Dec 2009 23:12
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The only indie games I'd sell right now is iGames. PC games, the market is impossible to compete with. iPhone games are a great opportunity. I'd charge around $4 for an iPod game.

You have to have a Macintosh, though, to develop them. That's what I want next.

PC games, I'm going to ask for donations. If a hobby pays for itself it's worth it. And, if people can play games for free, my name will get noticed by someone, because enough people might just play.


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DJ Almix
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How about something that falls into it's own category I can't stand it when people want to reach fame so all they try and do is make a game that is better then the bigger ones. Make a game with something that's rare like Little big planet had customization, cortex command had fully destructible environments, and stuff like that, that's new and could let you have fun for hours.

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heyufool1
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Quote: "How about something that falls into it's own category I can't stand it when people want to reach fame so all they try and do is make a game that is better then the bigger ones. Make a game with something that's rare like Little big planet had customization, cortex command had fully destructible environments, and stuff like that, that's new and could let you have fun for hours."


I agree. A simple physics sandbox can keep me entertained for hours (not really but a long time)

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Dec 2009 00:05 Edited at: 8th Dec 2009 00:07
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Quote: "I'd charge around $4 for an iPod game."


Hmmm good luck with that one. It's rare for an indie developer to sell a $4 iPhone game. Most new games are $0.99 or $1.99 And be prepared for an incredible rate of piracy, in the 90s. I'm not saying my iPhone game was the bee's knees, but my global leaderboard has about 20,000 entries and far less people than that actually purchased it when it wasn't free.

For me to buy an iPhone game, the $1.99 and $0.99 price range for an iPhone game is not even a consideration. I just do it. I *would* hesitate to buy a $4.00 game, however, and you'll find most others are the same way. In reality it's stupid, because I would not hesitate at a $4.00 PC game, which isn't really fair, but the psychology behind it is since it's a smaller device, the games should be cheaper, even if it took just as long to create the game.

EDIT:

On a side note, DBP's community member Walaber's JellyCar 2, which is published by Disney (WOW!), is $0.99 and currently topping the charts.


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Cash Curtis II
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$1 is totally reasonable, makes sense. Too bad so much piracy.


Download the game!
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Jeku
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Yah, the sell ratio is exponentially higher for $0.99, so you will probably make more because of higher copies sold, in the long run. But, if your game is crap, that's another story

Most great games also have free "lite" versions, which are demos but Apple has many rules that you must follow. For example you can't gray out an option and say "buy the full version", and you can't make it time out after X amount of time. Apple is picky about things like that.


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AndrewT
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Posted: 8th Dec 2009 01:17 Edited at: 8th Dec 2009 01:17
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Regarding the piracy of iPod apps, I am the only kid I know of in my school that buys apps from the App Store. It's ridiculous, and it's why the market for iPod games is rapidly diminishing.

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Drew Cameron
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Im not being dense - but how do you pirate games on iPhones etc? Surely you have to buy them through the iphone so its not like you could torrent them?

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dark coder
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By jailbreaking the phone, one done you can easily install a certain application that grants you access to download practically every app on the store and from what I've read, new releases get added to this almost instantly. Given the advantages to jailbreaking I assume a lot of people would do it, and the step between that and getting this app isn't that large.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 8th Dec 2009 03:27 Edited at: 8th Dec 2009 03:34
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Fallout,

Just a few tidbits,

Quote: " - For argument sake, my game will be priced at £5."


Way too cheap for a PC title. Being cheaper can have negative overtones to the buyer. The price needs room to move also. So you can discount it and use affiliated resellers to shift extra content for you. The more affiliates you have, the more gateways to selling. Virtually every download site offers this.


Quote: "
- I would want £25k as my annual salary (pre-income tax, national insurance etc, so I can ignore those taxes from calculation).
- The additional tax to consider would be VAT, at 15% (have a missed anything?)
- 15 of £5 is 75p. Each game is then £4.25 to me.
- Assuming no expenses (media, premises etc). My £25k salary covers my food/living expenses etc. as my current salary does!
"


Firstly, how are payments to be collected ? If you're not doing this directly, then whoever the 3rd party is that's processing the order (credit cards/money orders etc) will be taking a cut (10% -> 30%).. This is the stuff that needs to worked out before you commit.


What age group is the game(s) suited to ? Adults/Children/Teens. Does the audience have the potential to buy ? or should i say, what hurdles are in place for the customer to buy. Do kids have credit cards ? Can you set up the product around a partly ad funded ? in those cases..


Quote: " So yes, you've highlighted a major simplification. But also proposed a solution; Make a game that can have sequels, to keep hold of a fan base and increase sales over time. This indirectly points to RPGs, although can be applied to other genres. EDIT: I think seeing several titles available to buy, for an RPG series, would add to it's appeal too. It shows the world isn't a one hit wonder indi, and will expand as you play through it."


Nah, any program can have a successor. DBC to Dbpro for example. If the first title can wedge a place into peoples heart/minds then the door is well and truly open.

Up selling to your existing customer list is very a valuable assets to any business, so offering additional content to existing products will help you maximize the return. It's much easier to sell to an existing customers, than to find and win over a new one.


Quote: " But the only point I disagree on here, is the 1 in 500 visitors buying your game. I reckon you could get that figure down dramatically by targeting a niche and coming up with a novel concept. If your game is unique, and the people trying it and looking for that unique characteristic, and can't find it anywhere else, so long as it's polish and genuinely good, I think you can have a higher success rate. "


There are thousands of products online that under perform. It all comes down to need. What need does your product fill in the market place ?, what points of difference are there with your competitors ? Who else is in this market, what's your competitors strengths / weaknesses. What type of person buys this product ? All I'm getting at, is that rather than making the product and then finding an audience. You really have to be have a very clear idea before you commit.

As for the conversion rate, if you can reach higher than %1 (downloads to orders) you'll be doing well. Getting higher than this is indeed possible !

But there are so many factors that inhibit people from people online though, so it's a slow grind optimizing the path for the customer. The more boxes you tick, the more sales trickle through.


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Melancholic
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Posted: 8th Dec 2009 16:51
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Quote: "Let's be honest, most people I know over a certain age wouldn't buy an indie game for their kids, they would always go with a big company just because they naturally assume it would be more reliable."


Very good point, i missed a part of my post, i menat to say that if you could get your games in shops somehow. Like darkbasic is disributed through fast track i think. Sorry my fault.
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Morcilla
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Quote: "There are thousands of products online that under perform. It all comes down to need. What need does your product fill in the market place ?, what points of difference are there with your competitors ? Who else is in this market, what's your competitors strengths / weaknesses. What type of person buys this product ? All I'm getting at, is that rather than making the product and then finding an audience. You really have to be have a very clear idea before you commit."

Wise advices.

Yeah it is not about the genre. When talking about games, it is about creativity. A game must give the user some sort of joy, it should surprise him/her somehow enough to get his mouth opened at some point.

I hear all the time about big games that big companies have made, and they receive very hard reviews from the critics. After such big projects, and all the time and money spent, they put the whole effort down in one second.
While from time to time, a small company, with much less resources, and a much minor ambitious idea, but much more creative, comes and receives a whole lot of acceptation and... those seeked sales.

So the great graphics and infinite scenarios, are only an attempt to ensure the game acceptation, but sometimes it succeeds, and sometimes don't. Such effort is impossible for an indie developer, and taking that way is never-ending a high risky business, due to the time needed to accomplish.

It is better to try simple ideas, and if they don't work, then go for a new one, re-using the already developed project assets.
And I would said, forget about the big genres. Take for example 'Brain Training'. A simple idea that has been there for ages, and it has succeded now. Those ideas are awaiting us to be made

So, it is more realistic to compete for the unexplored areas, or the pieces of the cake that the 'big ones' doesn't want. These genres include educational games, adult games,... hey help me to complete the list, anyone?
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Darth Kiwi
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Quote: "Way too cheap for a PC title. Being cheaper can have negative overtones to the buyer."

That's certainly true for games made by big companies (if you see a FPS in the stores for £5 then you shy away from it) but I don't think that's necessarily true of indie titles. For example, yesterday I discovered "The Path" by Tale of Tales: it's a retelling of the Little Red Riding Hood fairytale, using six different girls who each have a different experience of the story. From the reviews I've read, it sounds like an amazingly cultural and artistic game, but at 6 hours long it would be over quite quickly. The £7.25 price tag, therefore, seems justified: I think paying any more for such a game might be a bit much.

I think all those summaries of genres in the OP are very stereotypical, which is why it's difficult to find an obvious choice of genre from them which is not stereotypical. As others have said, I think you have to have the idea first, and then work from there, only thinking about the genre afterwards.

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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 04:25
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I have to give my opinion here as I am actively registering my company in the next few weeks to be official.

I feel that a single genre can't limit a computer game to the sales or popularity it will receive. People are so willing to buy garbage/ gimmicky games that are worth little to nothing you can pick up some sales with flashy listings for your games and other areas of interest a consumer likes is an impactful demo of your game for them to try out on their own to decide to purchase the game you created.

Cheers,

Beastegargoyle

My online game portfolio and work samples [a href]www.jaredgingerich.com[/a href]
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BearCDP
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 10:35
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I found a short blog of an indie developer who talks about trying to get his hits up and more games sold. There's only a few entries where he talks specifically about choosing genres, but I found the whole thing interesting.

http://www.igdreality.blogspot.com/

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 11:11 Edited at: 10th Dec 2009 11:14
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An interesting read. I went to his site and had a look at his games. Ok, by the standard of what most people could achieve, they look good. If they were in the program announcements board, I would think "Well done. Not bad at all." As for something on the net to sell, I am surprised he sells any. They look very generic gameplay wise, with only poor to mediocre graphics. If he is making any money at all (especially with the price tags on those games), he is a testament to the fact marketing like a mofo and hits are extremely important.

While it's a harsh thing to say, it's good to see an indie having some success with sub-par games. It gives me hope.



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Van B
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 11:59 Edited at: 10th Dec 2009 12:00
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Pander to the needs of mature gamers.

The games my parents buy are these find the items on the screen, which could be coded by a 1 armed, blind, monkey in DBC. Puzzle games like that sell well, even though there are so many. Both my parents buy and play a lot of these type of game, but the classic casual gamer games as well of course.

Casual gamers, that term is a complete joke, because it's based on assumption, assumption that they are interested in twee puzzle games that involve no thought, and play these games casually, maybe while talking on the phone to their hairdresser. Casual gamers probably play more hours per day than normal gamers, and they tend to be the ones who do buy games, these people are your market.

If I was making a PC game to sell, I'd go niche all the way, make some sort of elaborate puzzle game, a pleasant game with no horror, stupidity, or cruelty - so it would be quite a transition for me. When you look at all the factors, your target audience is obvious, and if your game is good enough it would bleed into other sectors. Maybe some mini-market research would be an idea - talk to the people you know who do buy games, and find out what they buy, how much they pay, and what they look for.

As for a career though, you'd have to let it take you to that level gradually, it's suicidal to quit your job and start something like this with no firm ground. Once you can generate the sales to support yourself, then you should start considering a career in indi dev - but that's a long way away for anyone. Ideally, you'd identify a game design that you can turn around in about a month, and that people will want to play, and approach some of the casual gaming sites. It's a gamble, but diving in like that is really the only way. There's too much procrastination and red tape with this stuff already - at least you have the choice whether or not do work on it, personally I'd rather do this sort of thing alongside a steady job. Doing that at least retains some of the fun, because the best selling and highest potential games, might be just the games you don't want to make. I find it difficult to finish the games I DO want to make, so I'm sure it will take a lot of determination.

I made a pairs game a for a friend, a pairs game where you have these cards turned over and have to remember where they are and match them up. The game is what I'd call a horrific, pink, tumor of a game. I mean who in their right mind would want to match up pictures of Robbie Williams and Morrissey!. But I spent an evening making this thing anyway to shut her up. I'm not sure if this thing ever made it onto the internet, but my friend has had to email it to over 30 people, who's seen her play it and want a copy (she works in a university). I could spend years writing games that I like, and not sell a single one, or I could spend an evening writing a game that I hate, and maybe sell a shed-load. Hundreds of thousands of people have downloaded my games, but somehow those 30 people who actually asked for a copy of the pairs game shout louder.
It would be a sacrifice, it would kill me a little inside, but I'm sure I'd make better money by forgetting all my own ideas and pandering to casual gamers. I'm not sure if I could do that at the end of the day.


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 15:16
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Quote: " That's certainly true for games made by big companies (if you see a FPS in the stores for £5 then you shy away from it) but I don't think that's necessarily true of indie titles. For example, yesterday I discovered "The Path" by Tale of Tales: it's a retelling of the Little Red Riding Hood fairytale, using six different girls who each have a different experience of the story. From the reviews I've read, it sounds like an amazingly cultural and artistic game, but at 6 hours long it would be over quite quickly. The £7.25 price tag, therefore, seems justified: I think paying any more for such a game might be a bit much."



While I understand where you're coming from, lets not confuse the customers of perception of value, with the developer needs. In terms of prices, yes, a lot of these portals are moving to down to introductory price of $6.99 - But the developer would be lucky to see %50 of that. Less again when it's bundled. So you'd really want to make sure what you're putting up has got legs.


Quote: "An interesting read. I went to his site and had a look at his games. Ok, by the standard of what most people could achieve, they look good. If they were in the program announcements board, I would think "Well done. Not bad at all." As for something on the net to sell, I am surprised he sells any. They look very generic gameplay wise, with only poor to mediocre graphics. If he is making any money at all (especially with the price tags on those games), he is a testament to the fact marketing like a mofo and hits are extremely important."


That's one way of looking at it, another is that he understands what people want from this genre and simply gives it to them. By focusing on one specific sector of the audience, he's building a long term association with these users. Not all of them are customers mind you, but to this audience he becomes their 'shooter' solution. Effectively it's list building 101.


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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 18:29 Edited at: 10th Dec 2009 18:29
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@Van B - I agree that casual games are the way to go for in indie developer. I am a fan of casual games myself, especially from the likes of PopCap (Plants vs. Zombies, Bejeweled Twist, etc.) Some developers make casual games purely to fund their "hardcore" games. For example the best PC Sudoku game, Zen of Sudoku, was made by a Source MOD team to raise funds for their action game in development. That's not a bad idea, and I think they made good money from their Sudoku game. I play it almost every week and it's great Not all casual games are mindless.


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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 18:52
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The question is though chaps, if you choose a style/genre of games that you don't particular enjoy making, in order to be successful, is there much point? Surely the idea of being an indie game dev is to enjoy your job, and enjoy the creative process? I think we'll all agree, it's not the best way to earn yourself big bucks. There are plenty of other business ventures with a better chance of higher returns.

So I don't think you really can opt for the less enjoyable games, and justify it as a viable business model, unless you're convinced your boring (to you!) idea will be a massive seller.

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David R
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 19:37
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Quote: "The question is though chaps, if you choose a style/genre of games that you don't particular enjoy making, in order to be successful, is there much point? "


Initially I would say no - as well as the fact that if you're dev'ing something you don't enjoy, it will show through the finished product

At the same time though, to a certain extent, I think you have to just accept it - because after all, video game dev. is creating a product that entertains other people, not [just] yourself.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Dec 2009 19:58 Edited at: 10th Dec 2009 19:59
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I would be totally happy making a living making games purely for mass market appeal. I would be doing lots of whistling on the way to the bank with the sacks of cash

On the side I would work on a personal pet project, a dream project, but a man has to feed himself.


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xtom
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Posted: 11th Dec 2009 16:27
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It takes quite a lot of time and effort to make even a simple game. It takes longer to make one worth paying for. It takes even more effort and time again to market it. If you're not passionate about the game you're about to make and just want to make money then I'd say forget it. Focus your time and energy in a game or project that you are at least somewhat passionate about and even if you don't make tons of money at least you'll have enjoyed the process and have a game that you like to play. Games that are a labour of love usually turn out better anyway.


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David R
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Posted: 11th Dec 2009 20:32
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As a side note, I just saw the comments on here:

(Scroll down to comments, starting from #1)

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4213/pondering_indie_spirit_derek_yu_.php

^ Good example of how not to market a game

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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Dec 2009 23:14
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@DavidR - That Flytrap guy is pathetic, whining because his game wasn't featured on GamaSutra. I respect Derek Yu, and met him a few times in my journeys. His Spelunky game is *definitely* not just a Boulderdash clone


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tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Dec 2009 00:51
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Interesting topic. I'm currently setting up the paperwork for my company and my first project, so it's good to have my ideas confirmed by some people who know their stuff.

If, during the project, I find out anything worthwhile to add to this one, I'll do so


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