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Geek Culture / Working Conditions in the Industry Discussion

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 07:43 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 07:44
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What would you do to break into the game industry?

What would you give up?

Don’t take this question lightly. In fact, if you can restrain your twelve year old sense of humor for ten minutes, take this question seriously (joke of course )

Since my senior year in high school I have been working hard in school in hopes that it will all pay off by landing me a job in game dev somewhere. It’s every aspiring game developers dream! I’m excited, and if you’re working hard and striving to break in, you should be excited too! It’s a wonderful career!

But what if this career wasn’t what you thought it was going to be? What if your dreams finally came true and you landed a job at Rockstar San Diego for example, come to find out that you had to work 11 or 12 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week? But that’s just crunch time, right? Sure, you could do that for a few weeks. The wife would understand and the kids would get through it. But what about six months? What if you had to use a vacation day to see the Doctor on a Saturday?

Some of you have probably heard about this sort of thing in the past (EA Spouse), and I bet more of you are now aware of it with this whole Rockstar Spouse brewing right now. But for those of you who aren’t aware, it’s not uncommon for these sorts of working conditions to occur. It’s not as extreme in all cases, but it’s definitely there. For me, I am kind of geeked about working a few extra hours each day for a short period of time to finish a project. I thrive in crunch times. But I wouldn’t be able to handle it for months at a time.

The line has already been drawn on this issue it seems, and there are two camps. One side believes that this sort of crap needs to stop and the other believes that, well, if you don’t like it, get out. Employers use this to their advantage. I mean listen, if you can’t handle it, there’s always the guy standing in line behind you waiting to break into the industry. Is that fair? Maybe not. Is it reality? Most certainly.

For me, I’m not so sure where I stand on the line yet for several reasons. However, I think it’s sad there even needs to be a line in the first place. I feel it’s wrong for employers to use fear to manipulate their workers. I feel it’s wrong not to assume that there will be crunch time. I would feel wrong creating a union (ugh, I live in the greater Detroit area and I can tell you how the Auto Union has destroyed things here) to keep employers in check.

How and when changes in the industry occur, I have no idea. But do yourself a favor and give your dreams a reality check today. What would you give up to work in these sorts of conditions? Could you give up your friends and family to live your dream job?

Here is some good reading for you:

Polycount Discussion on this (Polycount is a community full of 3D professionals currently working in the industry. They have first hand knowledge and are sharing it here)

Gamasutra Rockstar Spouse Post

http://kotaku.com/5444150/alleged-unfair-work-conditions-at-rockstar-san-diego

What is your opinion on this? And does it change your prospectives at all?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 08:01 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 08:11
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I have experienced the harsh work conditions, even though I had it pretty easy compared to some of the other game teams.

I remember one example where I worked my butt off on a game from start to finish, pulling in weekends for 2 months, with the odd Sunday off. After the end of these projects it's common for the company to give us a few days up to a week of free time off, but I was immediately signed onto another game that was just in pre-alpha stages. I worked 7 weeks in a row, 7 days a week (even on stat holidays), and didn't get paid anything extra, or any overtime pay on top of the meagre salary (a full $30k less than I make now). Right after that crazy project, I was assigned to bug fix random games, and the managers guilted me into working more overtime (again, unpaid overtime). My name won't even go into the credits unless I work a full month on the project, so nothing will come from this extra hard work. Not only that, I was laid off 6 months later, where a fresh batch of hungry fresh graduates were willing to take my place to save the company $5k in salary a year.

But after all those many years, I still missed the environment, and still consider my true "home" in the game industry. I do similar programming tasks where I am now, and in a senior position, making a lot more money. There's little to no overtime, the company stresses great work-life balance, the benefits are great, the amenities are kick-butt... it's just not as "glamorous" as games. I'll take a more stable career over a "fun" job any day of the week now, and getting laid off was the best thing to ever happen to my career, amazingly enough.

I encourage everyone to do that at least once, though, and experience what goes into making a game from start to finish. Then you can get an appreciation about how games are made from concept to finish, and all the people that are involved in the tiniest to the largest of ways. It will make you think twice about complaining when that next big triple-A game gets delayed, knowing the sweat that goes into developing them

EDIT:

Interestingly I also heard bad working conditions were rampant in Rockstar Vancouver's office during the development of Bully. Tsk tsk, Rockstar and Take2.

EDIT 2:

Just reading that link has reminded me of several stupid things at my last employer. I remember seeing a manager's MS Project screen on his computer at the beginning of a project, and he had already scheduled in overtime and crunch time. Funny thing is, they would always stress about how the overtime is because of improper time estimations or because of other controllable phenomena, but in reality they plan for it every time from the very start.

I had a conversation with him about how to reduce overtime and crunch time, asking him if he and the other managers took learnings from previous years and adapted their schedules accordingly (i.e. less time for this, more time for that, do this earlier to get it done faster, etc.) He looked at me like I was questioning his ability as a manager and was offended. Hahaha!


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 08:32 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 08:36
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I'm not gonna lie, I feel disheartened by all of this.

In a worst case scenario:

Cons
* Long hours
* Long weeks
* Unpaid Overtime
* Less Pay
* Name in credits unlikely
* The feeling of knowing you're at a company who can guilt you into things

Pros
* You get to live the dream and work on games
* You get the culture
* You get the bragging rights

Uh, doing the math here, and I'm not seeing things as optimistically as I was before.

It really doesn't affect my plans too much though. I do want some industry experience before I start up something myself. But there is a place for my dreams right next to what's important in life. I don't think I would have a problem taking a non-game dev job and doing indie stuff on the side while working on playing my cards right. That's what it's all about anyway.

I'm still excited about it though... just a bit more cautious I should say. And this whole thing isn't to discourage anyone here. I guess it's more like a heads up.

Thanks for sharing Jeku

EDIT: Just read that project planning story. Geesh. Sounds like things could be run a lot more efficiently.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 08:36
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I've worked as a gameplay designer for almost exactly three years to this day and can definitely say something about how I experience it.

The mentality in the industry can often be "But hey, you're in the game industry! Lots of people want to do what you're doing, so shut up and work."

Most CEOs and producers have probably said something on par with that at least once.

But what does it mean in reality?

1. Uncompetitive salaries. A programmer outside the game industry earns a LOT more than inside the industry. Of course, this isn't true for the Carmacks out there, but in general. It's usually a layered affair -- producers, lead programmers and designers earn a lot of money (myself excluded) and artists earn less. QA are hardly even on the scale to begin with... They get paid in cheeseburgers.

2. Relentless uncompensated overtime. Yep. No money and no compensation leave. Also a game industry fact, more or less, but can vary in intensity between companies. Some companies pay some more money, but expect copious overtime in return. This bit might depend on what you expect, of course. Some countries have several weeks of legally bound vacation. Others, like the United States, don't...

I started out working from morning until early night. It was the usual "dream come true" that motivated me. But after a while, you come to enjoy your personal life. Your girlfriend, if you have one, and maybe the hobby game projects that piqued your interest in the industry to begin with.

It becomes "just a job." Eventually, anything becomes "just a job."

If you're prepared for it, and KNOW that you don't want to do anything else, like myself, then you have all the potential in the world. But if you have principles, such as not wanting to work for free for countless hours and needing spare time for hobbies, then the game industry isn't for you at all.
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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 09:48
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This is a good thread, and I think a reality check is very important.

I don't like the games industry. I think people are underpaid, overworked, and worst of all (in my opinion) pigeon-holed into 1 small area of the development process. How is that truly fulfilling?

As indi developers, we think up our own games and bring them to live by making all the decisions and doing all the work. Yes, it's hard to get to the end, but we get the fulfillment of realising our own vision. You won't get that in the game industry, unless you achieve a lead designer, or lead development role.

While the software development world isn't as exciting, you will have a much better quality of life. You will earn more, have more job opportunities, have a better work life balance, and also, have far more input into the creative process.

Personally, I am interested in the games industry, but I wouldn't accept any other role than a lead designer. What are the chances of getting a job like that? Extremely slim. Perhaps with a portfolio of really great indi games, it might be possible. But I would not look for any other position, because in my opinion, the work life balance would be too much to bear for a pigeon-holed non-creative role.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:58
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The whole pay thing is a case of the shoe being on the other foot.

Really, 5 years ago just and games industry programmers were better paid than business software programmers, boo hoo that's gone all different and now people who want to work in the industry can't justify it .

See anyone who is into programming when young has to automatically go onto making games, as they are whizkid and it's what society deems appropriate. What about business programming? - that's damn exciting stuff as long as your a bit of a masochist. It seems to me that the benefits in industry work are pretty thin these days, no job security, no real reward, declining market, outsourcing creeping in, horrible conditions... It's no kind of career, at least not in the traditional sense of the word.

I write bespoke business software, databases, reporting systems, that sort of thing - and have the sort of job security that no industry programmer can logically expect. Really I think that people need to be honest with themselves, and ask if maybe putting food on the table every day is what is important, not working at some perceived paradise that will never exist. Concentrate on a career, if you like to make games then you shouldn't work in the industry - as crazy as that sounds, I think your much better off having game dev as a hobby than hating the poor 'thing' as a career.

Working in the industry is akin to taking something you love, and pimping it out to the highest bidder. Programming is like having 2 girlfriends, one you have to make your wife. There's always 2 sides to programming see... the side you love and the side you put up with so you can do the one you love . Unfortunately you can only marry the one you love if you don't mind sharing it and hating it in the long run. Marry the dull, ugly one with the money - and the one you love can be the plaything it deserves to be. Typically the thing you love about indi game dev is the freedom you have, the same freedom you instantly sacrifice as an industry pro.
Strange analogy I know but hopefully someone understood it!.


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RalphY
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 11:33
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I'd be interested to see any studies into the effect the sort of working conditions Jeku described have on the quality of the final product. Working long hours weeks on end with no break must have a negative effect on your programming ability in the long run.

Stackoverflow has a thread with some interesting information on the ideal working time for a programmer: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1600071/are-there-any-serious-scientific-psychological-studies-about-the-ideal-maximum.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 16:10
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If you are salaried, expect to work over 40 hours every week. It sucks, but that's just a fact. There was someone on slashdot this past year about on-call rotation and should it be ok for companies to force you to be available 24x7.

lmao @vanb, that's quite an analogy. I bet your wife just loves you.


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charger bandit
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 16:47
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I'd like to work in a game studio that is small and doesnt really care about tight deadlines,just making games 8 hours a day,weekends/sundays off.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 17:08
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The most promising thing are these little micro developers, making Android and iPhone apps, usually fueled and funded through the iStore or whatever you call it.

Even that's pretty flimsy though, unless you can go for it yourself.


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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 17:20
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Quote: "I'd like to work in a game studio that is small and doesnt really care about tight deadlines,just making games 8 hours a day,weekends/sundays off."


Knock knock?

Who's there?

Reality

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 17:22
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Speaking of these long hours, in the UK it is illegal to work certain numbers of hours. To be honest, I am not sure about the legislation, but I do know breaks are mandatory and overtime beyond a certain amount of time cannot be enforced by the employer. So legally speaking, we are better off in the UK than the US (it's also much harder to fire people over here).

Having said that, in practice, everyone knows you have to put the grind in to be successful. So if you did kick back and just do your contracted hours, you may well be within the law, but next time the redundancies came round, you know you'd be at the top of the list.

I love this thread Sid. I love destroying the dreams of all the kids here with a reality trip.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 18:15
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There's always Rockstar North - come to Edinburgh and work on the biggest game there is... but then your in Edinburgh unfortunately.

Probably have to be golden to get taken on there though, they have the pick of the top talent in the whole of the UK.


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gbark
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 18:53
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Quote: "Working in the industry is akin to taking something you love, and pimping it out to the highest bidder. Programming is like having 2 girlfriends, one you have to make your wife. There's always 2 sides to programming see... the side you love and the side you put up with so you can do the one you love . Unfortunately you can only marry the one you love if you don't mind sharing it and hating it in the long run. Marry the dull, ugly one with the money - and the one you love can be the plaything it deserves to be. Typically the thing you love about indi game dev is the freedom you have, the same freedom you instantly sacrifice as an industry pro.
Strange analogy I know but hopefully someone understood it!."


Haha, I've always felt the same way... Just never put it to an analogy like that.

I used to want to get into the game industry, but nowadays, I really don't think it's somewhere I'd want to work. I mean, I like making games as a hobby, but that's also the reason I don't want to work in that industry -- It will just become a "job" to me, and then instead of making the games I want to make, I'll be making games I'm payed to make and then will just be too burned out when I get home to even think about working on anything of mine.

So I'm not sure exactly where I'm gonna land up as far as a career, but I'm hoping for more of a general R&D type of computer science job, maybe with a specialty in AI. And then just keep game making to a hobby.
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David R
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 19:18
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I have no issues with working hours, but I've been put off professional game dev. altogether purely because of the job security (or lack of it) unless you work for someone massive

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 20:16
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Yeah, from what I've heard work conditions in the industry don't seem too great. That's part of why, as unrealistic and difficult as it is, it would be great to start my own company and change the standards at least for that company. I think development companies should be structured like Google, which is where I'd look to for ideas if I was to start one.


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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 20:55
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Like you, my aim is to have my own game development company, but only if I had loads of cash. The risk factor is too great to put all my money into it. It'd have to be after a lottery win or something.

Someone in the big companies is making A LOT of money. It is a multi-billion dollar industry, after all. It's just a shame hardly any of it makes it's way down to the poor plebs who actually make the game.

If I had my own company, there would be no shareholders. There would be no ludicrous publishing deals, where some fat bastard skims 40% off the top for just printing some DVDs. No. There would be ME!!! Me making loads of money, and my team making a packet beneath me, and no fat cat investors raping us while we work.

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Melancholic
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 21:15 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 21:24
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Quote: "and no fat cat investors raping us while we work"


Are the working conditions realy that bad?
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 21:21
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Being a commercial programmer is akin to being a battery hen..


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 21:30
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Quote: "If I had my own company, there would be no shareholders. There would be no ludicrous publishing deals, where some fat bastard skims 40% off the top for just printing some DVDs. No. There would be ME!!! Me making loads of money, and my team making a packet beneath me, and no fat cat investors raping us while we work."


Marketing is the difference between success and failure sadly.

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lazerus
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 22:26
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Quote: "Being a commercial programmer is akin to being a battery"


Remove hen, then you can be binned when youv ran out for a fresh set.

This is slighly daunting especially since ive chosen creative computing for my course in uni.

flaggle tarts, i guess ill need a good portfolio then.


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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 23:03 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 23:05
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Quote: "I'd be interested to see any studies into the effect the sort of working conditions Jeku described have on the quality of the final product. Working long hours weeks on end with no break must have a negative effect on your programming ability in the long run."


It's hard to say. I worked on some abysmal titles (thankfully with no mention in the credits), and I also worked my butt off on a game that was voted the best sports title of 2009 by Gamespot and other sites. Programmer skill definitely tapers off over time without rest, but there's so much new blood that they can keep refreshing all the staff and do just fine in the long run.

Quote: "If you are salaried, expect to work over 40 hours every week."


Well, I'm salaried now, and have only worked 2 extra days overtime from the comfort of my own home, in over 5 months. That's pretty good

Quote: "altogether purely because of the job security (or lack of it) unless you work for someone massive"


Well, my last company was pretty massive I'd say! I remember meeting someone who was there for 7 years, and thinking that he must have been the most senior of the entire staff. There was a giant layoff session with hundreds axed approximately once every 1-2 years. We were used to seeing people there one day and not the next.

Fun Tip:
Be prepared to give up ALL your fun on-the-side indie game activities if you work for a game company. They most likely will not even allow you to work on a closed-source freeware game, or even a game that's not directly competing.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 23:21
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Quote: "I love this thread Sid. I love destroying the dreams of all the kids here with a reality trip. "


Lmao

I'm carrying this quote over from the Polycount thread:

Mike Capps, head of Epic, and a former member of the board of directors of the International Game Developers Association, during the IGDA Leadership Forum in late 08, spoke at a panel entitled Studio Heads on the Hot Seat, in which, among other things, he claimed that working 60+ hours was expected at Epic, that they purposefully hired people they anticipated would work those kinds of hours, that this had nothing to do with exploitation of talent by management but was instead a part of “corporate culture,” and implied that the idea that people would work a mere 40 hours was kind of absurd.

What kind of bassackwards thinking is this?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 23:43
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The kind that works just fine because the kinds of people who work in this kind of industry are too docile to put and end to it? Face it, the point of adulthood is to repay the debt you made to society in childhood.

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 23:57
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They need a union!

Quote: "Face it, the point of adulthood is to repay the debt you made to society in childhood."


I think the point is to have lots of sex, and create as many children as possible. Unfortunately game programming is in direct conflict with this.

... another reason not to join the industry.

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David R
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 23:58 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 23:59
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Quote: "Well, my last company was pretty massive I'd say! I remember meeting someone who was there for 7 years, and thinking that he must have been the most senior of the entire staff. There was a giant layoff session with hundreds axed approximately once every 1-2 years. We were used to seeing people there one day and not the next.
"


I suppose I fell into the "too big to fail" illusion like all those Wall Street bankers. So it would seem everywhere has crummy job security. And 7 years... bloody hell!

I think I'll stay the hell away from game dev - on top of the fact I've fallen out of love with games. Hopefully this means I'll avoid 'tunnel vision' and won't close doors on potential careers - because I have no idea what I want to do!

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 01:04
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Quote: "I think I'll stay the hell away from game dev - on top of the fact I've fallen out of love with games. Hopefully this means I'll avoid 'tunnel vision' and won't close doors on potential careers - because I have no idea what I want to do!"


Personally I would still do it if you have the option, at least for a few years. You can use the experience to get a better job at a non-game company. My current employers were excited at having a guy from the game industry on board, because I had a different outlook on UIs and could hack working at a well-known hard-to-work company.

Quote: "Mike Capps, head of Epic, and a former member of the board of directors of the International Game Developers Association, during the IGDA Leadership Forum in late 08, spoke at a panel entitled Studio Heads on the Hot Seat, in which, among other things, he claimed that working 60+ hours was expected at Epic, that they purposefully hired people they anticipated would work those kinds of hours, that this had nothing to do with exploitation of talent by management but was instead a part of “corporate culture,” and implied that the idea that people would work a mere 40 hours was kind of absurd."


Wow, and I was asked to do a job interview for them. Good thing I didn't consider it at the time


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entomophobiac
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 09:25
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I think the biggest problem with the industry is that the publishers are irrevocably in charge. They call all the shots, they have the money and developers are dependent on them if they want to survive.

Really, all projects I've been tied to have been in Panic Mode for 99% of the time. There's always a looming deadline and important milestone beyond the horizon -- always. And there's always the promise that "next time, it won't be this way".
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:51
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Looks like Rockstar New York is having issues as well: http://kotaku.com/5446339/former-staffer-compares-rockstar-ny-to-the-eye-of-sauron

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Van B
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 14:17
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See that last statement at the end there...

Quote: "
What MTV Multiplayer's source describes sounds like several bad jobs I've had, all rolled up into one. Of course none of mine involved creating a Grand Theft Auto game, which would have made some of the suffering worth it.

You're making sacrifices, but for the end result. There's very few times that you're able to be a part of something like that.
"


Yeah, except that GTA is made by Rockstar North, and RS NY was involved in location shoots etc is all. Coming from Scotland, I can tell it's a Scottish game, there are so many references that Americans just will not get (especially the posters and stuff). So, if they are making sacrifices it's for Table Tennis, Midnight Club, and Red Dead. Red Dead looks great, but I'm mangling on about GTA here . The UK has employment laws that restrict what hours it's legal to work, so the house responsible for GTA is not affected by this - as much as that impression is given.


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Fallout
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 14:29 Edited at: 13th Jan 2010 14:34
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We do have laws Van, but they are often bent. When we get to a major product release, we are asked to work weekends. True, we can say no, and there's not much they can do about it, but you wouldn't be held in high regard by the team. You also would be looking at a smaller bonus at the end of the year (above average contributors get more), and you won't be given the exciting roles that require more commitment.

So I can imagine in the games industry in this country, you could still be shafted. The only difference is, you could choose not to work those extra hours, and they couldn't sack you. How fun a work place it'd be for you is a different matter!

Edit: It is POOR management though. I don't care what anyone else, and what spin they put on it. Working fewer employees harder will not get you a good product more quickly. It'll get you a crapper product more quickly and in the long term, damage your team morale and reduce quality further. I speak from experience.

So to me, it sounds like the games industry is run by a bunch of clowns.

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 14:42
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Quote: "So to me, it sounds like the games industry is run by a bunch of clowns."


Publishers are people who want to work with games but don't know how to make them.

Developers are software engineers and artists lured into the industry believing that it's a creative one.

More or less.

Clowns maybe, but no one's laughing.
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 14:56
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Thing is, when we actually see a dev house in a documentary, they look like incredible places to work in, and the long hours seems to be an accepted part of it. For instance the Oblivion documentary DVD, the Lionhead Fable2 dev diary series - I've seen European houses where they sit and drink glasses of beer while working.

So I think that some places must be great to work for, but the commercial nature of the industry is changing that. I think things were better before these game centric courses started up, back when you needed a computer science degree to even get started in coding commercial games.

What strikes me though, is at crunch time I've often acted just plain crazy and unhealthy. Working 9 hours then coming home and working another 6 hours on a game was not unusual. When finishing Jetpac2003 I pulled an all-nighter without giving it a second thought. So if the whip-crackers didn't enforce it, a lot of people would end up doing those daft hours anyway. I regularly work for 4 or 5 hours on my own projects, meaning my working day is more like 13 hours, including the weekend that's about 70-75 hours a week. I tend not to need to crunch these days though, when it's your own time you soon learn how best to spend it.

Maybe I don't feel so bad for professional game developers after all .


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Dazzag
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 16:27
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I don't work in the game industry but have been a programmer in the travel industry for years, and I'm guessing things aren't amazingly different in how you are treated.

Expect cancelled holidays, extra long working hours (sometimes for no extra cash), massive stress levels, unsympethetic bosses, travelling all over the place for no good reason (for meetings that *must* happen in someone's building rather than virtually), unrealistic targets, huge amounts of passing the buck (and getting blamed for someone elses mistake), really really badly written specifications, moron clients and bosses (who for some reason, that probably involves horned hats and silly handshakes, keep their jobs with triple the pay even though have half your intelligence and skill), and a complete lack of loyalty from your bosses regardless of the loyaltly you give them. I probably missed a few from the pits of hell there. Answers on a postcard...

My personal record is a 96 hour week, with the same month getting 156 hours overtime (I work a 37.5 hour week normally). Nice paycheque that one. And I thought parts of that we were a little lazy. Worst was when they expected us to do 2 hours extra a day for 3 months (inc. weekend). Half the development department left within a month (about 15 people at the time).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:28 Edited at: 13th Jan 2010 17:29
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@Sid Sinister - Excellent article!

We'll slap me on the foot as I think I have lost my mind. I graduate this May with my degree in Video Game Design. I have filled paperwork already to get a small game company started. I work at Wal-mart full time and will live on freebies from local fast food joints as I give my time, money, life into making this company a respected developer.

I have heard the pay for game development is not bad, but the job time for working stinks. I will give my employees the respect and time they require to make the first title polished for the public.

God bless and I hope this Dream comes easier than expected.

Jared(Beastegargoyle)

My online game portfolio and work samples [a href]www.jaredgingerich.com[/a href]
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Fallout
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:44
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You do need to get your timing right, but you can't work on a game forever. The biggest expenses is wages. So you need to finish games ASAP. You need to work smart, make the right decisions, avoid feature creep and time wasting, and basically get it done to a high standard without coasting through the dev process.

Good luck with your company!

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:48
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Beast, game design is an especially hard way to break in. Not many companies will hire in a entry-level designer. You really need to shine in the indie dev arena, that's my best advice.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:50
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Thanks Sid and Fallout. I have notcied from the email's I have received back from employers about them prefering an experienced Game Designer over a recent graduate.

My online game portfolio and work samples [a href]www.jaredgingerich.com[/a href]
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 07:21
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The IGDA has spoken: http://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=d239b70fc6659f7d5fc1e4bd8&id=e994e92488&e=60fbbc7277

And yet another claim: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/14/source-max-payne-3-development-allegedly-also-suffering-from-mi/

Quote: "
We assert, as has been well documented, that extensive overtime is not only ineffective from the point of view of productivity, but moreover is destructive of employee morale.

We believe that companies have an obligation to inform prospective employees of their overtime policies prior to their employment.

We believe it is unethical for studios to routinely rely on extended, uncompensated overtime in order to get their products out the door.

We believe that deathmarch hours injure the reputation of the entire game industry, preventing top talent from entering and remaining in game development. Excessive overtime destroys the talent upon which the game industry is founded and depends.

We further believe that studios engaging in excessive overtime injure studios that work rigorously to ensure quality of life for their developers.
"


Way to go IGDA! Those were great words. The whole letter is written well and doesn't play the blame game.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 18:20
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Rockstar hasn't addressed the accusations directly, but apparently this is an internal email they sent out.

Quote: "Dear Rockstar San Diego

No doubt you are all aware of the comments made on Gamasutra regarding some internal dynamics at the studio and some people's dissatisfaction with the environment. We take issues related to working conditions extremely seriously and will look to address any genuine concerns immediately.

It's been a challenging few years, and a tough last few months as the game moves towards completion, but the final product of all that incredible effort is on the verge of finally being received by the public: the stellar game that is Red Dead Redemption, a game of which you all should be justifiably proud and which you should be excited to see come to market.

We do not agree with the allegations in the Gamasutra post (e.g. there has been no reduction in health benefits or ancillary benefits and perks (such as free dinners and massages etc), wage increases across the studio have kept track with cost of living increases, and anyone who feels they have been overlooked for a bonus for a game they worked on please contact HR to discuss as soon as possible). Nevertheless, we do know that the team is working very hard right now, and we care deeply about the physical health and mental well-being of every single person on our team. We are committed to working through any issues anyone at the studio may have, and to providing support wherever possible. Please, if you have concerns, discuss them with Sarah Shafer or with Rob Spampinato who heads up HR for the whole of Rockstar and who will be on-site in the studio for the next few days (Rob is sitting in the "new york" office). If you would prefer to speak to someone in confidence outside of Rockstar, please contact Chris Casazza, who oversees HR for Take Two.

Red Dead Redemption is rightly one of the most anticipated games of 2010, and we're incredibly proud of the entire team for the truly outstanding work that's gone into making this remarkable game as good as it is. Here's hoping we can give this game the reception it deserves this April."


http://kotaku.com/5448788/rumor-rockstar-responds-to-allegations-of-poor-work-conditions

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Oolite
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 18:54 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 18:57
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Because i mainly work freelance, I have noone to blame but me for the crappy hours i can end up working. Never having an in house position i can't really comment from personal experience. Teaching wasn't as much hard work as freelance can be, although planning the entire course and individual lesson plans used to take up a lot of my free time. The one thing i hate about lecturers who use online tutorials for the class to follow. I used to write my own...

I've got a few mates working in companies though and the experience has varied widely. Some people love the company they are with, are treated fairly and yet some people have not. Suffice to say they haven't stayed in a certain place long, just enough to get a title or two under their belt. The worst story I've heard is from a well known company, (no names ) but he was telling me about how himself and some of his colleagues would have no choice sleep at or under their desks during some of the more intense times of development, purely because they couldn't afford to lose the time taken to travel to work and back. Apparently, superiors had no problem with this just as long as the work was getting done. I have had some experience with them before, but as a freelancer. They did have rather high expectations of what can be done in certain amounts of time.

Lets say for example, something should take about 24 working hours to complete, they would want it the following day. Forget about sleeping or any other commitments i might have. Strict deadlines usually come with the job though.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 04:33
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I'm not counting on it, but sleeping at work doesn't sound half bad. Taking a 10-15 min cat nap after lunch is awesome. Refocuses the brain, let's my subconscience work on some programming problems and then I wake up have new ideas and a sharper mind.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic.

Really? Dang, I like Code Masters. I hope that's just an isolated incident.

[Another Update]

Rockstar is apparently making fun of the allegations now. I have a bad name for them. It starts with a D and ends in bag.

http://kotaku.com/5449453/rockstar-has-some-fun-with-eye-of-sauron-comparison-still-wont-comment

I will never work for Rockstar. Jerks.

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 07:46 Edited at: 16th Jan 2010 07:47
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Hmm, I have heard the exact opposite of Codemasters. A friend of mine who worked with me at EA Canada left and moved to the UK to work for Codemasters, and she only had amazing things to say. The overtime was far lower than what we experienced together, and the company gave them time-off after the project on a 1:1 basis for all the OT!! That is amazing. Plus, the salary was quite higher for her job.


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Oolite
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 18:50
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Quote: "I'm not counting on it, but sleeping at work doesn't sound half bad. Taking a 10-15 min cat nap after lunch is awesome. Refocuses the brain, let's my subconscience work on some programming problems and then I wake up have new ideas and a sharper mind."

Ok fine, 10-15 minute naps during your break, but getting 2-4 hours sleep in the night, under your desk is another thing and all just because you can't afford to lose the time travelling because of strict schedules

Jeku: My mate worked there coming on 4 years ago, obviously i can't comment on what the situation is like there now. Regardless of what i heard, i wouldn't turn down any work or an in house position if they offered it me.

Quote: "I will never work for Rockstar. Jerks."

I bet if they actually offered you a job right now, you wouldn't turn it down.

I quite like what they are doing here, it's obvious it started with just a couple of people who don't understand how the industry works and feels like they've been treated badly. I still bet 90% of the staff there enjoy their job and are having a jolly good laugh. Rockstar have a great sense of humour and uploading stuff like this clearly means the staff have no problems with it. It would only kill moral in the company if they thought this would piss off it's own staff.

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David R
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 19:58 Edited at: 17th Jan 2010 20:02
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Quote: ", it's obvious it started with just a couple of people who don't understand how the industry works and feels like they've been treated badly."


While I agree, I think that's also part of the problem - while it's the norm for companies to expect huge time commitment and crunch, it shouldn't be. How the industry works at the moment isn't right - and while most people love their jobs (to some extent) enough to put in this time, companies take advantage of it - too much. Especially when crunching is used as a replacement for a proper schedule (I'm not saying that's always the case, but I bet some "grind houses" out there that pump out movie games and sequels probably use crunch as a solution to schedule issues - in place of better solutions such as feature set or design changes etc.)

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 21:42 Edited at: 17th Jan 2010 21:44
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Quote: "I bet if they actually offered you a job right now, you wouldn't turn it down."


I know that wasn't directed at me, but I have always agreed with this up until laste year. Now at EAC they will only hire you as a contractor software engineer. So, sure, they're hiring lots of happy fresh graduates, but they string them along on a few 6-month contracts, then let them go before the legal limit. Believe me, this happened to *many* of my friends. With contractors they do not need to pay them any benefits, and there is no job security. They even don't get the nice little perks like discounts on some games.

After continuously promising an upgrade of a regular full-time employee, they have *all* been axed. I don't know of one person who got the "upgrade". So in that sense, I wouldn't take that offer right now. And again, I know it wasn't directed at me, but I would have taken another job last year before they decided to only hire contractors. They have frozen all hiring of people that will add to their technical "staff limit", which makes them look better on paper, so they don't even have to count the contractors as real employees. It is a crappy atmosphere for them, believe me, not feeling like a "real" employee!


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Libervurto
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 22:33
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From what I hear about the games industry it is impossible to have a "career" any more. The chew you up, spit you out, and tuck into the next batch of geeks.
Glad to hear Jeku has found something less stressful.

I think the fact is, if you have to work for anyone you are going to hate it because you have to do it the way your boss wants it. Unless your boss is great (which they rarely are) or you call the shots, you're going to hate your job on some level just because you don't have control over it, no matter what your job is.

How long is a games industry career nowadays?
From what I read I couldn't see myself doing that for more than five years.

"With games, we create these elaborate worlds in our minds, and the computer is there to do the bookkeeping." - Will Wright
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 22:37
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Hopefully one day us geeks will catch on and then suddenly the mainstream games industry will teeter then collapse under its own greed and mistreatment of personnel.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 06:28
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Quote: "Ok fine, 10-15 minute naps during your break, but getting 2-4 hours sleep in the night, under your desk is another thing and all just because you can't afford to lose the time travelling because of strict schedules"


I guess I should have clarified my comment a bit more. I meant that in an ideal situation. As in, if this crap wasn't going on in the industry and everything was hunky-dory, a mid day nap would be awesome. By no means would that be a replacement for a good nights sleep at home. Sorry about the confusion, looking back on it my comment took a different direction than the point you were making in your previous post.

Quote: "I bet if they actually offered you a job right now, you wouldn't turn it down."


Okay? Care to put down some money on that? I believe I just stated that I would never work for them .

I have a passion for game dev, but I will not sell myself into some industry whore house and get butt raped for x amount of time just to get a job in the industry. I will make do just fine with something else, even if it's not in the industry. Come on man, I have standards!

Quote: "How long is a games industry career nowadays?
From what I read I couldn't see myself doing that for more than five years"


Good question, and I completely agree. Not sure if it was said here already or if it's from another discussion I was having, but a lot of people just spend enough in the industry to get the experience and then get out again.

Also, I'd like to raise the point that the industry works heavily on 'contacts.' It's who you know, not just your skills. If you can befriend some management at your studio that would probably help your job security.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 08:27
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Quote: "From what I hear about the games industry it is impossible to have a "career" any more. The chew you up, spit you out, and tuck into the next batch of geeks."


I think this thread has gone a bit out of hand, really. Yes, some things could be a lot better and yes, it's not as pretty to work with games as you think when you're not doing it. But other than, it's still the best job I've personally ever had.

Why?

Because of other like-minded individuals; because the talk of the day isn't sports-related but revolves around games and gaming; because you learn a lot of the "latest and greatest" and you get to meet hundreds of interesting people at expos and conferences.

It's definitely possible to have a career. It's just that it's not the kind of success stories that id Software and Epic had the opportunities to have. Today it's a cutthroat market where the publishers call all the shots and developers take all the pain.

But it's also the developers having all the fun.
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