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Geek Culture / Post 3D Movie Depression? What?

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 10:15
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/11/avatar.movie.blues/index.html

I thought this was one of those internet jokes in the making thing-a-majigs, but apparently not. People are seriously depressed that Pandora isn't real.

Other hilarious items to note in that link. Maybe because it's 4am right now and I'm already a little slap happy from youtube videos, but I lol'd hard at the only guy in the whole theater to be eating his own personal pizza.

Hilarity aside, I wonder if this is a trend we'll start to see as movies and games become more real. This definitely struck me odd, that's for sure.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 10:24
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I read this earlier and thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen.
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Fallout
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 10:39
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I've not seen the film yet, but I can kind of understand people's feelings.

The world is a pretty crap place. If you get thoroughly immersed into a fantasy world that is very convincing, it will undoubtedly cause you to reevaluate reality. I think this dissatisfaction with the real world is partly what inspires us to make computer games ... especially things like RPGs and immersive adventure games. It's the same reason I love post-apocalyptic movies - real life is often dull, and movies and games provide the imagination with an alternative.

Having said that, while I understand it, I do think it's pathetic people get depressed and contemplate suicide. If your life is that meaningless, you need to do something about it. Climb a mountain, meet a women .... or even make a game! I can't be arsed with the first one, but the other two get the thumbs up from me.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 11:28
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Quote: "I read this earlier and thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen."


Why? Life is awful and you can always bet it's 100 times worse for someone else. Why is it ridiculous that some people miss being transported to a beautiful world for 2 hours? Of course there is going to be a downer when that's over for them if it lets them escape for 2 hours.

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HowDo
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 11:56
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I'd rather escape for 2 hours than be miserable 24/7.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 12:31 Edited at: 12th Jan 2010 12:38
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Quote: "Why? Life is awful and you can always bet it's 100 times worse for someone else. Why is it ridiculous that some people miss being transported to a beautiful world for 2 hours? Of course there is going to be a downer when that's over for them if it lets them escape for 2 hours."


It IS ridiculous that people should be depressed that they'll never be able to visit a fictional place. It's got nothing to do with them escaping from their awful lives (and let's be honest, how awful is your life if you're able to go the cinema?). Read the article before criticising what I have to say thanks

I don't think life is awful. Granted I'm pretty lucky not to live in a place where life could be awful, and I have many things in my life to be thankful for. But people who contemplate suicide because they'll never be able to visit a fictional place seriously need a reality check. I'm sure there are millions of people around the world who would trade places with them in an instant because their lives truly are awful!
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 12:46
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Quote: "(and let's be honest, how awful is your life if you're able to go the cinema?)"


How dull is it if we were bored enough to invent cinema?

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David R
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 13:26 Edited at: 12th Jan 2010 13:30
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Cinema is escapism. That's why it even exists. It isn't exactly surprising that after seeing some seriously eye-popping escapism you'd be yearning for it a bit. Calling it full-blown "depression" is not quite right though.

Also, I think this kind of thing actually already happens/happened before 3D - not so much with a world like Pandora, but more with characters. When you watch a really cracking film and get really attached to the character, and then it ends. You kind of wish the character actually existed. But facing up to the realisation that the character doesn't exist, you just wait for a sequel instead

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Fallout
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 14:11
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Quote: "When you watch a really cracking film and get really attached to the character, and then it ends. You kind of wish the character actually existed. But facing up to the realisation that the character doesn't exist, you just wait for a sequel instead"


Yes. Normally female characters though. And normally I'd adapt their psychology somewhat, so they were obsessed with indi game developers. Just a minor modification.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 14:19 Edited at: 12th Jan 2010 14:23
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Quote: "and let's be honest, how awful is your life if you're able to go the cinema?). Read the article before criticising what I have to say thanks"


I read the article, don't try and be a smart ass. Many, many people are unhappy and rely on films, music and TV to let them escape for a short time. This obviously runs deeper for some people than others - some people enjoy a TV show enough to join related forums or buy box sets, other people only enjoy them casually. A percentage of people are going to be truly taken with a show: and for a film which shows a magical world like this, it's going to capture the imagination of the downtrodden. It doesn't make them losers because the film had an effect on them.

It's like holding up a mirror by showing them a wonderful world which makes them reflect on their own unhappiness and the general lameness of life.

You either get where they're coming from or you don't. If you are, as you say, sitting on your high chair of happiness, I wouldn't expect you could imagine why escapism is important for some people. If you have ever been taken in by a film or fantasy world, which many many people have, then this article may be an extreme example, but you can at least see where they are coming from.

Also, if someone can go to the cinema they have it made do they?

Your post and lack of understanding is typical of someone who is happy. It's hard to remember / empathise with people who don't have much when you have a lot.

[P.S: I am happy]

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Zeus
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 14:45
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This is honestly the stupidest thing I have ever heard....

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DJ Almix
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 16:31
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Well sure that world was cool, but at the end


Spoiler




Still I can see why people wish that planet was real it was so deatailed in the movie and bueatifl looking. Not only that but he made a scoiety matter of time before nerds can speak avatar, much like the situation with Lord of the Rings and elfs.

Sorry for all the typos as I typed this from a Zune so just ignore them : P

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Lucifer
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 16:51
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I think it's strange that some people have suicidal thoughts after seeing this movie. Other than that i can't say i have any right to judge them. I'm planning on going to EuroFurence either next year or 2012, now that's escaping reality.

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DJ Almix
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 16:55
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Quote: "I think it's strange that some people have suicidal thoughts after seeing this movie. Other than that i can't say i have any right to judge them. I'm planning on going to EuroFurence either next year or 2012, now that's escaping reality.
"


The furry convention? Hm, never would have guessed you would go to that.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 18:31
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Quote: "It's like holding up a mirror by showing them a wonderful world which makes them reflect on their own unhappiness and the general lameness of life.

You either get where they're coming from or you don't. If you are, as you say, sitting on your high chair of happiness, I wouldn't expect you could imagine why escapism is important for some people. If you have ever been taken in by a film or fantasy world, which many many people have, then this article may be an extreme example, but you can at least see where they are coming from."



Essentially you're saying, it's not the film that has made them depressed, but how it allows them to reflect on their own lives? (Just a question for clarification) If so, then there's sense in that.

Escapism, to add, can be finding a reality greater than your own, if you can tune out the troubles around you and see things that are better in a book, on a TV show, in movie or whatever, then I suppose you're escaping to somewhere happier. I think we see some stories play games with the idea of Escapism, take Narnia, for example, the kids essentially have 2 realities - war-time England, or a land where they're the chosen heroes, a land of magic and talking animals. You see it in the Neverending Story, Peter Pan and you could even say 'Harry Potter' as it goes from a bullied kid with no friends or parents who finds out, he's a great wizard respected by many.

I think some people find escapism with games, I wonder how many bullied kids go home and turn on the XBox or Playstation to play as a soldier and stop the terrorists from evading the west and be a hero? Or defeat Zagar, Overlord of Planet Vecumfia?

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 18:36
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Quote: "Essentially you're saying, it's not the film that has made them depressed, but how it allows them to reflect on their own lives? (Just a question for clarification) If so, then there's sense in that."


That's about the general idea, yes.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 18:49
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I'm depressed when I wake up from a particularly vivid, lucid dream. Not enough to contemplate suicide though

[center]Literally nobody who isn't a retard is talking about 2012. -Drew Cameron
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Herakles
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 19:11
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I find this quite moronic. Yes the world sucks, and it is okay to have a fantasy of a better world. But if the fantasy became more important to you than the real world, you've started to take it too far. A fantasy is supposed to make you happier, not depressed.

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lazerus
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 20:14
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I live my life as a escapest. Not the nicest reasons to explain. But live with it you incompetent fools.

Though whats wrong with living in a different reality? We sleep half of it in our own worlds so whats wrong with living the other half'ish in it too?

Life is a percular thing to assume things about it differs by everyones standards.

Oh and this is nothing, thier is a WOW 24/7 hotline for people with withdral. It is extreamly popular.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 20:18
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I was extremely depressed at the end of Avatar simply because I knew that one day I or someone else my age was going to have to top the visuals.

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Fallout
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:00
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I just started a mega-deep rant, but it was way too complicated for even me to understand ... so let me say something simpler ...

I love post-apocalyptic ZOMBIE movies. Why? Because, I love the idea of the entire world being completely decimated, and all of you guys, and everyone else, completely dead. In this world I can drive around in any car I find, and ride roller coasters in rusting theme parks. I live in a dead millionaires house, and scavenge tins of beans and entire crates of liquor from supermarkets. All I have is a few mates who have my back, and lots of random hot female survivors who I have to rescue from zombies (and their innocence), while using a katana to scythe my way through the undead.

In the morning, I weld metal plate to landrovers to build fortified vehicles, and after breakfast I make molotov cocktails. I eat gruel for the 50th day in a row, but I dont care, cos OATS NEVER GO OFF. I then go out zombie killing.

Completely unrealistic, but a DARN sight more interesting than my life!

That's my escapism! Bring on the apocalypse!

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:34
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Best post ever.

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Fallout
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:49
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Dude, I wanna make a zombie movie so bad!!!

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ZackS28
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:54
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Haha, except that at the end of every post-apocalyptic movie there is a 99% chance of the main character dying

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Lemonade
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:57
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I have to agree with you Thraxas, what a ridiculous article...and what silly people. Instead of being depressed, they should be thankful that they even have working eyes to view the movie...
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Outscape
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 22:13 Edited at: 12th Jan 2010 22:14
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reminds me of red dwarf (comedy)
its a story of this guy, who is the last human alive and like 26 years old on a spaceship (he survived a rradioactive leak because he was .....

anyway, to cut a story short, he had a 3 other companions with him. and for a reason im not going to say, one episode they imagined they were in "real life", on earth.
and in real life, it was told that their space adventures was just a video game that they had been playing for 5 years (food and water attached like a hospital) and in this life they were everything that in the game they had grown to hate.

the main character, turned out to be some mass killing guy or something, another companion who treasured wealth, turned out to be a tramp.
another person who was all about the justice of the law, and serving, turned out to be a corrupt cop.
and to cut a long story short, they committed suicide (nearly).

it was funny to watch though =).

its here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0k1MvoRo2c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pno8F4OJCOk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJYvsMqOsSw

very good humor =)


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Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 22:39
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Quote: "If you are, as you say, sitting on your high chair of happiness, I wouldn't expect you could imagine why escapism is important for some people. If you have ever been taken in by a film or fantasy world, which many many people have, then this article may be an extreme example, but you can at least see where they are coming from.

Also, if someone can go to the cinema they have it made do they?"


My life is far from perfect but thinking that a being able to visit a fictional world would solve all my problems is absurd! I fully understand escapism and am capable of empathy but I still think is ridiculous.

Yeah if someone is able to go to the cinema they have far more to life than millions of people around the world. Children growing up with aids, children who have witnessed the slaughter of their entire families, people who live in constant fear because they live near war zones. These people don't have the luxury of even going to the cinema, so these people who are acting depressed about their lives after seeing a movie will get no sympathy from me whatsoever.

Depression is a serious disease and I don't think the people who are claiming to be depressed here know what real depression is like. I've lived with some who had depression so seeing some article where people are moaning because they can't visit Pandora and then saying they're depressed, to me, is ridiculous. You can feel sorry for them if you want Drew but don't expect me to and when you know absolutely nothing about my life don't accuse me of living on a "high chair of happiness".
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the_winch
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 00:01
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Why can't someone be depressed after watching a film? Depression can be triggered by really trivial events.
Returning to boring grim reality after being immersed in an exciting beautiful film could cause people to take a good hard look at their lives. Similar to how some people can find experiencing psychedelic substances "life changing".

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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lazerus
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 00:14
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Thinking on this more, came to this,

Loooking at the beauty of another world, perfect burdenless lifestyle and then awakening again into thier own lot. It must be dissapointing if you think about it.

They must be really weak willed or be down on thier lot.


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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 01:21
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I've come to apologies and say I was out of line with my tone Thraxas;

A better way to say what I wanted to say is: some people have emptier lives and small things like 'withdrawal' from this film can push them over the edge or put them finally down to rock bottom. It seems trivial when not in this condition.

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David R
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 01:22 Edited at: 13th Jan 2010 01:24
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Quote: "Yeah if someone is able to go to the cinema they have far more to life than millions of people around the world. Children growing up with aids, children who have witnessed the slaughter of their entire families, people who live in constant fear because they live near war zones. These people don't have the luxury of even going to the cinema, so these people who are acting depressed about their lives after seeing a movie will get no sympathy from me whatsoever. "


Yes. Because clearly if you go to the cinema and see a film, there's no way you can have AIDs, lack a family or live in a warzone. Only people who don't have access to cinema experience those things. (which, if distilled, equate to death, fear and insecurity. Things that everyone experiences, be it via AIDs etc. or something far more tame)

Also: Depression and happiness are relative (and subjective). Something trivial to one person is a soul destroying problem to another, because everyone has experienced different things and has different perceptions of happiness/well-being.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 01:23
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Well said DavidR.

Now to use your trademark smiley.



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Herakles
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 01:56
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Escapism is fine, to an extent. It can make your life happier. But if you take it too seriously and make yourself less happy when reality sets in, you've defeated the whole purpose of it.

And if your real life really does suck that much, don't just sit there and say "oh, I hate myself and I want to die". Do something to make your life better.

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BMacZero
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 02:15
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It was a very good, very immersive movie. With the amount of photorealism and the 3D aspect (which was very well-done and way past the "gimicky" feel of previous 3D works), I can definitely believe that hundreds of people are really depressed because of watching it. But, this:
Quote: "don't just sit there and say "oh, I hate myself and I want to die". Do something to make your life better."


Also this :
Quote: "I was extremely depressed at the end of Avatar simply because I knew that one day I or someone else my age was going to have to top the visuals."


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Thraxas
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 03:22
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Quote: "Yes. Because clearly if you go to the cinema and see a film, there's no way you can have AIDs, lack a family or live in a warzone. Only people who don't have access to cinema experience those things. (which, if distilled, equate to death, fear and insecurity. Things that everyone experiences, be it via AIDs etc. or something far more tame)
"


It's not the point I was making and you know it. Once again you decide to have an opinion different to mine, for what I can see as no reason other than it's MY opinion. Well, whatever David R, this is the last response you'll ever get from me on the forums. I find you obnoxious.

@Drew
np and I should apologise to you also.
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Quik
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 10:28
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Quote: "Why? Life is awful and you can always bet it's 100 times worse for someone else. Why is it ridiculous that some people miss being transported to a beautiful world for 2 hours? Of course there is going to be a downer when that's over for them if it lets them escape for 2 hours."


u do know that the trip there is 6 years? that means they miss 12 years of their lifes if theyre just to stay 2 hours=P Not worth it no matter how depressed u areXD

although, i love the avatar movie, i love pandora, but.. ehhhm.. depressed? what the heck?


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Van B
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 12:00
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Escapism is how we deal with stress, and this last year has been pretty bloody stressful for a lot of people.

With Avatar especially, the visuals suck you in, so it's easy to let go and just focus on what is happening on screen. The movie itself is largely about escapism anyway. My point is that there's stronger contrast now between the on screen world of awesome, and our miserable lives of poverty, disappointment, and greed. It's no wonder people want to move to Pandora, it's like Canada in the 80's.

That's all natural, but I guess when it gets to the point of mentioning suicide and emotional difficulties - well they basically need a dry slap across the chops. This is why British nannies shake American toddlers...

Sorry.

Anyhoo, every year I feel this pang of meloncholie, and this year will be the last and worst - LOST starts up again in a few weeks, and I love that show, in fact saying I love it is not strong enough, because in comparison to LOST I pretty much hate other shows (which I don't of course). But when it finishes, and I have another 10 or so months of not having LOST, well it's horrible. Prison Break was a pretty good stand-in, and Heroes is great too, but nothing compares to LOST.
My point is that we'll see this again in a few months when LOST finishes up for good, people will get depressed that they won't see the island any more, or all the characters that feel like family to them.
Flashforward though, I watch it, and I force myself to enjoy it, but there's no character in that whole show that is remotely likable. I hope the next project from the producers of LOST is a bit more mysterious, and a bit less of an 'apology for killing you in LOST' show.
Just thought I'd mention this, as I can definitely see the same sort of fallout after it's done, and I can certainly relate to the melancholic feeling and dread... as you realize there is practically nothing on TV worth watching, and everything you've looked forward to has passed.

Sorry, I might be a little emotional today, found out that the local cafe is going to stop serving my favorite donuts. Who can we turn to at times like this?


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 12:31
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VanB, I feel the same way about Nip/Tuck and 24 ending this year. I've already said bye to Stargate SG1!!

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Fallout
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 12:35
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I felt similar with Battlestar Galatica. I though it was a wicked series, then due to the writers strike (I believe), at the end it was a crock of poo. After all the brilliant character building and great storyline, they ruined it and gave us all an ending beyond cheese and completely unbelievable.

I was really disappointed. All that time I had invested into it was thrown back into my face, as if I'd bought a massive grandfather clock for lots of money, and then someone had thrown it into my face (I hate it when that happens). But I must admit, I didn't cry about it. I felt slightly gutted for about 20 minutes after the final episode, and then I ranted about it to my work mates the next day. But that was it. Oh, and I hanged myself. But that doesn't really count.

Radical hamsters skipping furiously into the blue ether, questioning their very existence while breathing out the bitter fog of smoked haddock.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 14:34
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Quote: "24 ending this year"


I think I'm going to cry in the last episode. Jack Bauer is the man. Hmm...I wonder if they're gonna kill him off?

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 16:32
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Quote: "I wonder if they're gonna kill him off?"


I think he'll trade his life for Kims and her daughter;

I think the film will then be based between seasons 2 and 3 so they can use Palmer, Tony and other fan faves in the movie.

Drew Makes A Game | Series 2
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David R
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:03 Edited at: 13th Jan 2010 17:09
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Quote: "It's not the point I was making and you know it. Once again you decide to have an opinion different to mine, for what I can see as no reason other than it's MY opinion. Well, whatever David R, this is the last response you'll ever get from me on the forums. I find you obnoxious."


What are you, a five year old? Ignoring me because I disagree with you? The 'point' you made seemed to imply only people elsewhere (or poor) experience suffering. This is simply not true. Maybe you live in paradise world, but people everywhere - whether they have access to cinema or not - can go through dreadful things. You don't need AIDs or war. And please, enlighten me, what was the point you were making exactly if what I replied to was not it?

And I didn't "decide" to have an opinion different from yours. Maybe if you actually bucked up your ideas and made a sensible point sometime in the next millennia, I would agree with you. And while we're being personal and immature: I find you intolerant and narrow-minded,

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:11
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To be fair David, you do seem to have a habit of turning a disagreement into a massively childish name-calling session.

[center]Literally nobody who isn't a retard is talking about 2012. -Drew Cameron
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David R
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 17:23 Edited at: 13th Jan 2010 17:24
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Quote: "you do seem to have a habit of turning a disagreement into a massively childish name-calling session."


I will reply with name calling if they insist on doing it themselves, but I don't start it off.

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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 21:38 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 21:39
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Quote: "It's hard to remember / empathise with people who don't have much when you have a lot."


I agree with Thraxas in that there are millions of people in the world who don't have access to a theatre at all. We are pretty lucky to be able to feel depression after watching a Hollywood blockbuster as opposed to an actual traumatic event

Quote: "I find you obnoxious."


Someone else noticed this too? Finally

Quote: "And I didn't "decide" to have an opinion different from yours. Maybe if you actually bucked up your ideas and made a sensible point sometime in the next millennia, I would agree with you. And while we're being personal and immature: I find you intolerant and narrow-minded"


The fact that you have access to this forum makes you better off than the majority of the rest of the world. You can't compare depression from Avatar to losing your family in an earthquake, can you?

By the way, do you like making enemies with the mods? We're not here to ban people for personal grudges, but you are annoying more people each time I come to this forum, with your "I will disagree with everything in an extremely opposite way" attitude. You have to admit at least some of the time when you're being a jerk, this being one of them.


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Venge
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 21:46 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 21:47
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Soooo......



Anyone hear about the Avatar sequel/trilogy in the works?


I will live forever or die trying.
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Aertic
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 21:58 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 22:02
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If this guy lost his meaning for life. Then he clearly never had one before he went. Other then to watch the film.
Quote: "Anyone hear about the Avatar sequel/trilogy in the works?"

I have, and I will not be suprised if it doesn't reach up to the standard's that the original have set --- Avatar is that film that is just a single story film, you can't continue it at all without it being bad. It'll just be impossible to obtain the perfect sequel to Avatar.

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David R
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 21:58 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 22:01
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Quote: "You can't compare depression from Avatar to losing your family in an earthquake, can you? "


I didn't.

You don't have to live in a 3rd world country or lack access to a cinema to go through crappy or hard times.

Quote: "By the way, do you like making enemies with the mods? We're not here to ban people for personal grudges, but you are annoying more people each time"


I don't give a flying crap about who I'm replying to, or whether they're a mod. Make a stupid point with logical fallacies, and I'll blow it up. Simple as

Quote: "I come to this forum, with your "I will disagree with everything in an extremely opposite way" attitude. You have to admit at least some of the time when you're being a jerk, this being one of them"


All I've seen from mods so far is "This guy is highlighting the flaws in my argument. I know, I'll acuse them of being intentionally argumentative, and hopefully that'll deflect from my utterly flawed point. Oh, and I'll throw in a few pointless personal jabs just to further deflect from the argument. Yeah, that'll do it. That way I won't need to back up my opinion with any kind of logic"

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Lemonade
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 22:15 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 22:15
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Cool down guys. While I don't agree with you David R, and your attitude is less than helpful, I can also see what your getting at. The mods (and others) do seem to pick on you a little for having an opposite opinion. Be it because that is actually your opinion or because you are trying to give them a hard time, I don't know.

I just think that everyone needs to take a chill pill and forget this argument. Its going nowhere.
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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 22:53 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 22:54
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Quote: "Make a stupid point with logical fallacies, and I'll blow it up."


I'm still waiting for your "genius" point. It's that the whole world feels pain? Wow, how enlightening Thraxas was giving an opinion that there are others that are not as lucky as we, to have depression from a movie, and you went extreme the other way with a "stupid point".

Quote: "All I've seen from mods so far is "This guy is highlighting the flaws in my argument. I know, I'll acuse them of being intentionally argumentative, and hopefully that'll deflect from my utterly flawed point. Oh, and I'll throw in a few pointless personal jabs just to further deflect from the argument. Yeah, that'll do it. That way I won't need to back up my opinion with any kind of logic""


!? I've received emails from people complaining about your attitude, so it's not just the mods. While I couldn't care less about whether you of all people disagree with me, what I *do* care about is how you add things like "make an intelligent point in the next millenia" and treat people like their opinions aren't worth a crap. If I see that even one more time from you, aimed at *anyone*, you are getting a long ban.


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