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Geek Culture / Google Vs China (Ultimate Showdown)

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Outscape
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 01:58 Edited at: 14th Jan 2010 02:01
google is pulling of out China due to Chinese hackers targeting their email service, to gain information onto individuals and other countries/companies.
and now they are stopping censorship for china, and therefore breaking Chinese laws.
They are now trying to negotiate with the Chinese government for their cooperation, and if they are still able to work in China.
Atm the Chinese google offices are on paid leave with many Chinese jobs that may be laid off if they are refused to broadcast onto China again.

Go Google .
(no offense to Chinese people).

googling, google vs china, gets this up if anyone wants to read what im on about.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/01/13/google.china.analysis/




Veron
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 02:58
Quote: "google is pulling of out China due to Chinese hackers targeting their email service"


Not true, they haven't confirmed that they're pulling out - they threatened to.

Quote: "and now they are stopping censorship for china, and therefore breaking Chinese laws."


Again not true, they threatened to, it's not happening yet.

Considering Google's relatively low 30% share of the search engine market in China, it's a gutsy move, even if the largest provider over there is double their size with 60%. Good on them for standing up for themselves and human rights in general. Going as low as to hack into the accounts of rights activists sheds some light on how messy China really is.

The whole censorship thing over there is disgusting, and it needs to end. Will it ever happen? Probably not.

Outscape
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 09:56
Quote: "Again not true, they threatened to, it's not happening yet."

well there was a video on tv, of someone using the chinese one and searching up some massacre and a religious guy which is meant to be normally banded.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 12:15
No offence to any Chinese people over there, but if ever there was a war against them I'd sure hope we win. Here in Australia I remember a Chinese lady went to a film festival in Melbourne or something, and she entered this documentary exposing how bad it was to live in China, and then the Chinese government went absolutely berserk and tried to stop the film from being played.

Don't quote me on any of that though. But if my memory hasn't failed me, it sounds a shifty place to me.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 14:18 Edited at: 14th Jan 2010 14:18
If the US goes to war with China it'd be a very large problem. Plus they wouldn't because the repercussions economically would be extreme. It would affect the global economy drastically. Plus there is absolutely no logical reason for the US to, so I highly highly highly doubt that the US would.

Veron
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 14:45
What has the US going to war with China got to do with this? And 'a very large problem' is a slight understatement, don't you think?

BatVink
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 15:28
There's a much funnier story here. CNN's only photo to illustrate the story is so diabolically bad that the caption reads...

"A man walks past the Google Chinese logo..."

I totally disagree with issues against Human Rights, but it's not Google's place to fix them. If they want to do business there, they have to do it under the local jurisdiction. You can't marry your 14 year old cousin or carry a gun into a college in the UK, and I wouldn't expect a US company to overrule those just because it's possible in America.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 16:36
Quote: "I totally disagree with issues against Human Rights, but it's not Google's place to fix them. If they want to do business there, they have to do it under the local jurisdiction. You can't marry your 14 year old cousin or carry a gun into a college in the UK, and I wouldn't expect a US company to overrule those just because it's possible in America."


Well there are two things to say about that really. First, censoring search results isn't exactly good for business. Secondly, I frankly think that somebody has to stick their nose in, otherwise it's a slippery slope. What will happen to human rights if nobody is there to keep an eye on them? I'll tell you what'll happen - another North Korea, except this time much bigger and much more powerful.

I personally think Google is the perfect candidate to do this. You can't have another country threatening them, but a company (and a powerful one at that) is big enough to do some damage to their economy - big enough to be a threat, but not the kind of people you would go to war with

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Outscape
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 16:44 Edited at: 14th Jan 2010 16:47
i guess, Google is the best candidate to do this:

Google, isnt directly tied to any government to cause upsets with china and another government.

Google, is a major company, if not one of the richest giving them alot of power.

Google, will most likely gain support from western countries.

If China decide to act on Google, they aren't likely to sue them, they aren't likely to imprison Google because Google isn't from China, nor needs to directly abide by their laws, they will most likely be banned from hosting to China.

However, this isn't really about human rights, its about the Google failed hack attempts, coming from people based in China.

Google will have an economic loss if they fail to continue hosting to China, but i can bet they will still be a major company, and still the main search engine.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 17:18
Quote: "I totally disagree with issues against Human Rights, but it's not Google's place to fix them."


Why? They are as entitled to make a stand for human rights as anyone else. Many companies already do this - take the Fair Trade and Co-operative movements for a start. Far too many companies use "the bottom line" as an excuse for tolerating (and practicing) all kinds of shameful practices.

But as someone else said, I rather doubt Google is making such a stand - but if they were, good for them.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 18:32
I think anybody who's powerful enough can stand for whatever cause they so wish, and in a world so concerned about its economy, businesses having a moral stance might be more influential than say the UN or any governments saying, "no, bad country, that's naughty". At least, if a country's economy relies on their business enough to comprimise.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 18:48
I hope google win, then invade china, becoming the first county to be owned by a company.

[center]Literally nobody who isn't a retard is talking about 2012. -Drew Cameron
lazerus
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 18:56
Please microsoft must own the world by now, every computer that has a windows OS' is pretty much still owned by them, If they wanted they could cripple the economy by sending a screwed-up update.

Rantings aside, I still dont understand how you can treat people like cattle even in this modern age. Ive always hated china and its polcies, ughh i guess things never change till you INVADE THEM!!!!

Outscape
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 20:08 Edited at: 14th Jan 2010 20:09
Quote: "Please microsoft must own the world by now, every computer that has a windows OS' is pretty much still owned by them, If they wanted they could cripple the economy by sending a screwed-up update."

not realy, huge amount of servers use linux.
also, heard of restore point?
could just restore before update.

Fallout
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 20:42 Edited at: 14th Jan 2010 20:45
Isn't this just a blip on an improving picture? I thought China was becoming less and less communist, now their industry is booming. Communism and global commercialism cannot mix.

I am no expert by any means, nor particularly well informed! But this thread sounds like people think China is on a slippery slope into corruption, when I'm fairly sure it's making steady progress out of it.

It's just a matter of time before the Chinese can search for "Tiananmen Square" without getting simply tourist photos.

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FredP
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 20:46
You don't actually believe that do you?
Fallout
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 20:57
Well, if someone presents me with some evidence of China's downwards spiral from it's already awful low, then I'll happily change my mind. I admit to not being well informed, so it could well be the case that China is going from corrupt to mega corrupt. But I assume that most people opinions are based on very little information, and people are jumping on the "China is going downhill" band wagon, when they probably have no idea. This is usually the case with these things.

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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 20:58
Quote: "You can't marry your 14 year old cousin or carry a gun into a college in the UK, and I wouldn't expect a US company to overrule those just because it's possible in America."


I don't know whether to feel insulted or thankful.

Brian.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 21:07
Quote: "I don't know whether to feel insulted or thankful.
"

Well I feel unlucky... apart from anything else, the gun laws here are rubbish

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lazerus
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 22:01
Quote: "Well, if someone presents me with some evidence of China's downwards spiral from it's already awful low, then I'll happily change my mind."


The national pass time is work or killed.
The one child policy // Which IS needed //
Zero freedom of speach - speak out against a governing body you can be reported and severly fined or hung.

''Traitors'' are shot in community areas, then the family are charged for the bullet. I use the term loosely since you can be acuussed over anything.

Large mafia like syndicates are in force across all areas // The conterfit rings + 'Gold mines' and other running scams //

Protests for fair rights = you under a tank.

Please do tell if you want me to continue, im sure i could find another hmm, couple hundred things that are morally screwed up with this backward nation.

The goverment should fear its citizens, not the other way around.

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 22:34
Don't forget the fact that they steal pet cats for food (I think that's china?) and they apparently kill prisoners early to sell their organs.

It's certainly a place you'd want to bring up your children in.
puppyofkosh
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 22:37
Quote: "It's certainly a place you'd want to bring up your children in."


So that's why so many people live there. It had always been a mystery to me before today.
BatVink
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:23
Quote: " I frankly think that somebody has to stick their nose in, otherwise it's a slippery slope"


We got lead poisoning for decades via leaded fuel when corporations got their way.

I'm not disagreeing with the need to sort out the atrocities. I just think people need to be careful how much leverage they give corporate business. Look at Nestle - they got a foothold in the African underdeveloped nations and allegedly brought many years of death and deformity to babies and young children. Who would have thought it would end up like that when it started out?

Outscape
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:41
Quote: "The goverment should fear its citizens, not the other way around."

thats the most stupidest thing i have ever heard.
no offense to what you believe.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:43
Quote: "thats the most stupidest thing i have ever heard.
no offense to what you believe.
"

You believe the citizens should live in fear of the government? What are you, some kind of neo-nazi?

[center]Literally nobody who isn't a retard is talking about 2012. -Drew Cameron
Outscape
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:04
Quote: "You believe the citizens should live in fear of the government? What are you, some kind of neo-nazi?"

well, why do people abide by law? they fear the consequences.
and i didnt exactly say that, but the government being scared of the people, is just plain riot.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:16 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 00:16
Probably INH's sarcasm there.

Law should be feared and upheld, as to deter crime. At the same time the government should be able to fear the citizens, as the citizens ought to be able to seize a government's power - hence the democratic process. So if society decides, "actually, these guys are going to ruin things for us, get him out", they're going to have to buck up our ideas pretty fast.

Though the democratic process isn't flawless. If a population can be manipulated into giving up civil liberties or wanting other things from a political power, the democratic process can be abolished and this is what we saw in the Nazi Germany - once Germany became Nazi, the democracy left by the Weimar government was abolished and the Weimar constitution had no effect, thus no free speech, no freedom of religion etc. and the German public were fooled enough to accept the loss of these liberties. This is perhaps why, now, we're so hung up on our civil liberties. Once they're gone, fascism can take over, as power is lost from the public.

And of course, if you enforce democracy into a fascist country or country lead by a dictatorship, they could easily elect the guy you don't want to win. Perhaps the same dictator you want out.

lazerus
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:16 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 00:19
edit sepp beat again with a more artiulated version of what i wrote.

You took it out of context, a man shouldnt be scared to say what he thinks, A real goverment is elected by the people to keep law, justice and generally everything running. The people as a Whole, those included in law enforcement are to pass judgement against the actions of the goverment.

A goverment is meant to fear the people. The power they hold is borrowed, not thiers.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:26
Quote: "Probably INH's sarcasm there. "

Well, slightly

I just think that, in the event of the government suddenly going mad or whatever, the general populous should be more powerful and be able to seize power from them, rather that a sudden dictatorship.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:42 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 00:43
Quote: "A goverment is meant to fear the people. The power they hold is borrowed, not thiers."

Amen!

@ fallout:

I don't think anyone was saying that china is on a downward spiral. It is improving slightly, but that's still nowhere near *good*.

Truthfully... china scares the hell out of me. without freedom, and with mass-industrialization, individuality of lost. Instead of being individual people, it becomes like an anthill (the ants collectively able to be called a single "super organism"). When I think China, I think of locust or something similar. It doesn't matter when you squish an ant from a huge ant hill, and that is exactly the mentality when dealing with people, leading to human rights issues. Who cares if you beat people in horrible working conditions and oppress minorities if the whole is functioning fine?

Quote: "I totally disagree with issues against Human Rights, but it's not Google's place to fix them. If they want to do business there, they have to do it under the local jurisdiction. You can't marry your 14 year old cousin or carry a gun into a college in the UK, and I wouldn't expect a US company to overrule those just because it's possible in America."

Sure, if they want to do business there then local law rules, but by doing so they are actively supporting censorship.

All that said, I'm not a fanatic about human rights, and you can't always put the individual before everything else. I acknowledge that individualism only goes so far.


NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:48
Quote: "I just think that, in the event of the government suddenly going mad or whatever, the general populous should be more powerful and be able to seize power from them, rather that a sudden dictatorship."


The government should be the the people. If the people want cake, the people should have cake.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:50
But the cake is a lie isn't it?

Outscape
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:51 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 00:54
Quote: "But the cake is a lie isn't it?"

theres .. no.. CAKE???!!!





Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 01:19
Quote: "portal reference"

oh, I didn't know that.




Fallout
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 02:16 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 02:20
Quote: "I don't think anyone was saying that china is on a downward spiral. It is improving slightly, but that's still nowhere near *good*."


Yeah, that was my point really. We all know China has severe issues to put it mildly! It's funny cos, just the other day I was reminded of "Tank Man" by a movie, and looked him up on the net. It's still not clear if he was caught and executed (though this seems to be the strong suspicion), or got away with it.

@Lazerus

Thanks for those points, but you missed my point. See above. I don't need to know how bad China is (yes, it's FUBAR). I wanted news articles etc. that showed it's current decline into an even worse condition. I felt people in this thread were suggesting they were about to nuke everyone outside China, and then start eating each other.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 03:19
I think I can see your point, Fallout. China is fubar, but the question is are they more fubar now, or are they less fubar? People seem to imply in this thread that it's more fubar, but you want evidence to suggest if it's really so, because based on your limited knowledge, it would seem less fubar, despite still being fubar, correct? Or would it make more sense if I added 'marklar'?

If China is moving from their fubararity (yes, a new word) then maybe they're on the way to being a country better for its people? Oddly enough, having Chinese friends pass and go as well as relatives living in China (well, technically not relatives, but for arguments sake, they are )I never thought to ask, "how's China?"

ionstream
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 03:33
Quote: "The goverment should fear its citizens, not the other way around."


Please remember to cite V for Vendetta otherwise it's plagiarism.

There should be no fearing of either party. Seriously.

Quote: "A goverment is meant to fear the people. The power they hold is borrowed, not thiers."


The power is given to them by the people. They ARE the people.

Terrestrial Productions
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 03:35
Quote: ""You can't marry your 14 year old cousin or carry a gun into a college in the UK, and I wouldn't expect a US company to overrule those just because it's possible in America.""


Now, does anyone else think this is screwed up? I think it's dumb because First of all: Who would want to marry your own cousin? Those of us who are lucky to have hot ones, normally their married already, or they wouldn't marry you. Secondly: It's just WRONG.

Quote: ""It's certainly a place you'd want to bring up your children in."

So that's why so many people live there. It had always been a mystery to me before today."


It's never been a mystery to me. I mean considering the fact that there are no rules against BAD stuff, and their are rules against most OK stuff... I persanally think that their government should completely fall because it's totally messed up, they practicly control the people out of fear, and if they think that google can't "censor" or whatever they want to the chinese then they should just go jump of a cliff wearing a shirt saying "suicide hotline 1-800-DONTDOIT".


Terrestrial Productions
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 03:40 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 03:43
Quote: "Now, does anyone else think this is screwed up? I think it's dumb because First of all: Who would want to marry your own cousin? Those of us who are lucky to have hot ones, normally their married already, or they wouldn't marry you. Secondly: It's just WRONG."


It wasn't too long ago when it was acceptable to marry your cousins - read a Jane Austen novel, proposals and even weddings between cousins have occurred in her stories, and we're looking back to the 18th and 19th Century. On second thought, don't read a Jane Austen novel, unless it's your thing, it's poor advice.

I wouldn't do it though. I know I'm just up the road from the fens, but it's too incestuous for me, though I don't mind other people's cousins, it doesn't matter if they're cousins of somebody else.

Veron
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 04:01 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 04:02
Yeeah... terrestrial productions, you're making China out to be much worse than it is. No rules against 'bad' stuff? The law over there regarding things like guns is stricter than countries such as the US.

Rules against most 'ok' stuff? Please learn what you're talking about, most Chinese people live a life very similar to the ones that we live - they have a family, a career, leisure, sports - it's when you delve into the behind the scenes stuff involving the government that it gets nasty.

So yeah - you're making China out to be much worse than it is. Have you even been there?

Herakles
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 04:20
You can't marry ANYONE in the US until you're 18. Incest... well... that's a religious debate that I will not get into. But you certainly can't bring a gun into a school.

Of course governments should fear the people. Human history has shown that those with power will always try to gain more power. Governments and laws are necessary, society couldn't function if murderers and rapists went unpunished. But a government that tries to enslave the people is just as bad as those murderers and rapists. The only way governments can be stopped from gaining more power is if they have incentive not to do so, like if they are going to be punished for doing so.

I don't know enough about China to have an opinion about their government, so I can't really say anything about it.

Terrestrial Productions
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 04:31
Sorry about that. I meant that I think they have rules that take away freedoms and stuff, and that the government doesn't have limits there or they do stuff they shouldn't. No sadly I have not (I'm a little young ehh?) and personally I don't really want to considering their conditions there (government, food ((chinese)), and atmostphere.)


Terrestrial Productions
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 05:04 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 05:05
Quote: "and personally I don't really want to considering their conditions there"

wait, so why did you post here again?

You don't really have a clue what you're talking about... it's china that wants google to censor the peoples' searches.

Quote: "You can't marry your 14 year old cousin or carry a gun into a college in the UK, and I wouldn't expect a US company to overrule those just because it's possible in America."

On second thought... could someone explain to me what this sentence means? What I'm seeing implied is "It is legal to marry your 14 year old cousin and carry a gun into a college in the US. An American company in the UK couldn't marry their cousins and tote guns around school like they can in america." Which makes absolutely no sense. (it's not legal to carry a gun to school or marry your 14 year old cousin. that is, unless your a law enforcement officer with a license for a concealed weapon. errm, referring to the gun thing only, of course )

[edit because the new sig I just tried out SUCKS]


Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 07:25
Quote: "So that's why so many people live there. It had always been a mystery to me before today.
"


I attribute it to an abusive relationship.

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Fallout
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 10:54 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 10:54
Quote: "People seem to imply in this thread that it's more fubar, but you want evidence to suggest if it's really so, because based on your limited knowledge, it would seem less fubar, despite still being fubar, correct?"


Yes, what you just said.

For example, we all know Iraq is PROPER FUBAR. But is it worse than before, or is their a glimmer of hope for it's future? Again, who really knows? Everyone will speculate and claim to be experts, but how many people can genuinely have an accurate picture from what they read in the news?

Afghanistan is FUBAR. It has been for many many years. But will our attempted ass kicking of the Taliban fail, or is there a chance we will have some form of limited success in the long term?

Ok, those are war zones, but a similar point stands for China. From my limited knowledge, I was under the impression the government was having to relax it's aggressive tactics, in order to progress more quickly in the world economy.

But anyway, point made. Let's now talk about Chinese food. MMmmmmm sweet and sour ribs.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 12:28
Quote: "ughh i guess things never change till you INVADE THEM!!!!"


Er? Read your history:

1. the fall of communist Russia
2. the fall of the Berlin wall
3. etc, etc.

Certainly much still needs to be done - but a big start was made without anyone invading anyone. In fact all the "invading" was done by those parties wishing to maintain the status quo (Hungary, Czechoslovakia, ... ).
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 13:37
Quote: "I am no expert by any means, nor particularly well informed! But this thread sounds like people think China is on a slippery slope into corruption, when I'm fairly sure it's making steady progress out of it.
"


If the Chinese government sees fit, they'd gladly cut off all ties with the rest of the world for a generation so they could get another firm grip on the country, no matter how much it hurts them. It's exactly what happened with the cultural revolution.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 14:35
Quote: "You can't marry ANYONE in the US until you're 18"


Yes you can, you can marry at 13 in some states.

Quote: "could someone explain to me what this sentence means? What I'm seeing implied is "It is legal to marry your 14 year old cousin and carry a gun into a college in the US. An American company in the UK couldn't marry their cousins and tote guns around school like they can in america." Which makes absolutely no sense."


This thread is about Google being allowed to publish uncensored search results, which is illegal in China. Morally and ethically people agree this should be allowed (as do I - morally and ethically). However, in China, it's illegal! So - should Google employees be allowed to marry their 14 year old cousins in the UK? No, it's illegal!

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 14:49
Or, in other words less likely to incite controversy - Batvink is saying that companies should accept the law of whatever land they operate in?

I disagree. Take a stand, Google. I don't care if its partly or in whole because of money - censorship is a big problem. Holds everything else back.

Outscape
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 15:32 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 15:33
I think companys should need to keep the law of the country they operate from.
Keeping the law of other countries is their choice, but then again people are always able to break the law, but just have to face the consequences.

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