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Geek Culture / CoZ's S.D.S System

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creator of zombies
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Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:01
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Greeting's all,
Not so long ago, my combatatives instructor requested that I come up with a simple system of self defence, where the techniques would reflect real world situations, and could be deployed without any practice by either men or women. As a side note, I sent part of this system to a neighbouring instructor, and he has currently added various and techniques of this system into his teaching program.

This is what I came up with: (I would like your opinions on the system if possible). The PDF is attached.


The system covers:
* Introduction to S.D.S
* The difference between Martial Arts and Self Defence
*Fighting without Fighting
*The Fence
* The “O’Neill cover”
* The ‘ABC’s of striking’
* ‘Where do I strike??’
* Fronting
*Tiger Claw
*Chin Jab
*Back-fist
*Edge of hand
*Cupped Hand blow
* Double slap
*Elbow strikes
+ Much more!


CoZ




-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:12
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Well, I haven't looked at it yet but is this really appropriate for a forum that quite a few minors frequent? Just saying

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creator of zombies
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:21
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blobby 101: The manual covers nothing graphic, and a vast amount of the manual is spent explaining how to avoid a confrontation in the first place (which is surely a good thing for people to learn). It also covers how to talk an attacker down from causing you harm.
Further expanding the comment on the "minors" issue; You can find material that is alot worse through a simple search in google, and with all honesty, if they are that immature or susceptible to acting out information they see on the internet, then they shouldn't be using the internet in the first place. I'm only looking for adult feedback on the system, considering there is a chance it could be used as an offical combatative program in the clubs around my area.

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:28
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Quote: "Well, I haven't looked at it yet but is this really appropriate for a forum that quite a few minors frequent? Just saying "

Are you suggesting minors don't get attacked on the street? I don't see how this is any more dangerous than say, selling knives in a department store or owning a cricket bat or something.

[center]Literally nobody who isn't a retard is talking about 2012. -Drew Cameron
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creator of zombies
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:29
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@Insert Name Here: Let's not get into an argument about this, that or the other. I'm only looking for feedback due to (as stated) it could be used as an official program.

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:46
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No, absolutely, I think it's an excellent idea. I've only glance over the guide and it seems well thought out a nicely organised. I like it.

[center]Literally nobody who isn't a retard is talking about 2012. -Drew Cameron
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Blobby 101
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 23:53
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yeah, I see your points, I've looked at it now and it is well done.
I was just thinking about the whole teaching people to be violent thing but I can see it's not doing that

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lazerus
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 00:00 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 00:02
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It was a good read, though if thier stupid enough to still push for a fight even after a warning/talkdown, well they deserve everything they get.

I have always been overly generous in a fight, Pretty much how i play,//

Right first answers three questions if you want me.

Are you serious about this?

y/ normally -_-"

What arm do you write with? <- this is the kind part.

right/

Thier is no third question, stright after they answer i grab the opposite arm, so left in this case and bring it behind thier back and put them into a police lock. Foot to the back of the knee, drop them on thier nose, hand aginst thier head, foot on hand and a knee on thier back.

Apply pressure to the hand/face if they wriggle NOT the spine, that can cause serious damage. I keep them thier till they calm down a little, then most of the time someone (teacher) intervines. So far this has never failed me after using it multiple times.

The reason i adopted this technique was i dont have to phyically stike them, which would do more damage to me due to a low bone density. So its restraining the stronger opponent while taking minimal damage. Though i have to say, i have overdone the arm lock and dislocated a lads shoulder. At least his friends wised up and didnt try and attack me though he deserved everything he had coming after beating up that kid 13ish, 4 years younger than him.

The generous part to this technique is that i damage the arm they wont use, so they can still work. See i am a nice guy, wouldnt want thier education to go to waste.

As for the comments about children, i can now search SAS CQB and pull up full colour diagrams on leathal techniques. This is childs play compared with them.


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
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crispex
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 13:01
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Um, your fighting "style" is rather similar to Kali, which is to be able to use any object to your disposal when fighting, and also using any body part practically to inflict the most damage and escape the situation. I studied Kali and practiced it for the longest time, but I can only do a handful of things now.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 13:18
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Quote: "The verbal confrontation may escalate to the point where the attackers mind is set on violence, and so a physical confrontation is unavoidable. In this situation, you should launch a pre-emptive strike."


This kind of logic is what makes people violent in the first place. Validating a "pre-emptive strike" in a text like this is unwise, I think. It's never as black and white as you can say it is. It's impossible to tell that someone was GOING to strike you, after all, and it won't hold up in court of you manage to injure someone with your "pre-emptive strike."

Other than that, the document seems to be a bit hand-centered (no knees or push kicks) and it doesn't discuss grappling or throws / takedowns. It's very typical for someone to grab your lapels, sleeves or otherwise impede you from using your hands or simply threatening you.

Then again, you never said it was a complete guide.
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AaronG
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 21:21
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Wow, awesome CoZ.

I enlisted in the Navy (and accepted to BUDS. Basic Underwater Demolition School) and am in the Seals. I've always been into fitness, and I'm pretty sure that they'll be teaching self defense and attack techniques based off of different Tai techniques, similar to MMA style. (Which I also fight in.)

I just want to be able to use this somehow someday...who knows? Game design?

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creator of zombies
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 17:05
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Quote: "doesn't discuss grappling or throws / takedowns"


The system isnt (as you stated) isn't completely finished yet, although I would like to add that takedowns and grappeling techniques aren't always 100% effective in a live situation due to their complexety (Although I shall be including "The shoulder and hip throw in the next edition)

Quote: "no knees or push kicks"

Shall be covered in more detail duing the next edition, although in my opinion doesn't need much explaining. Simply:

Side kick/stomp kick to knee = splintered or broken leg. (End of confrontation)

Or...

Quick, sweeping kick aimed at the aggressors lower leg, taking his legs away from under him.

Knees (For use during close quaters)
A driving knee strike aimed at:
*The groin/bladder = Extremely painful for the aggressor and possible chance of serious injury from toxic shock syndrome if the bladder was ruptured.

*Solar plexus: Extreme pain & possible unconciousness.

Quote: "very typical for someone to grab your lapels, sleeves"


Okay, then the techniques used are the same. Strike the attacker in the eyes or other facial targets, or simply (if grabbed by lapel) strike upwards on the aggressors elbow joint.

Result = splintered elbow

Another effective method would be to simply cup one your hands slightly (much like a slap), and deliever a hard and swift slap to the side of the neck. This will cause temporary unconciousness from anywhere to 3-5 secconds, due to the strike to the carotid arteries (which regulate blood pressure and carry blood to the brain would be disrupted). This is also a non-letal technique.

Quote: "or otherwise impede you from using your hands"


In this case, knee/upwards slap to the groin would be efficent at releasing the aggressors hold. If however he is still hanging on to your arms, simply drive either foot down the agressors shin onto the top of his foot.

There is no specific method or "way" in self defence. You combine these techniques in whatever order to get the job done.

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 09:33
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Quote: "although I would like to add that takedowns and grappeling techniques aren't always 100% effective in a live situation due to their complexety"


I don't agree. You mention kicking the legs from under someone -- that's really a takedown in the practical sense. Taking someone down is a perfect breather and allows you to run away -- which is the best technique there is in self defense.

Also, mentioning carotid arteries and how legs or elbows are broken isn't that realistic. Bone is extremely hard and almost all important organs are protected by either bone or muscle tissue. Single strikes, unless you're extremely strong and know exactly where to strike, won't break anything but the softest parts of a body. And in all honesty, you shouldn't want to, either.

Even if someone attacks you, I think it goes way beyond "self defense" to rupture that person's bladder, for example... Killing or maiming an individual means you'll see the inside of a jail for defending yourself. And THAT is never worth it.

I'd suggest studying Krav Maga techniques, for a down-to-Earth version of all this. Groin, eye and throat strikes are mostly to cause pain to an aggressor and leave room for escape. If you're not some kind of military special op or police officer, in which case you may do the same thing -- supplemented with chokes and/or repeated strikes -- to pacify a troublemaker or even kill a person.

The way you describe much of this honestly sounds more like Jackie Chan to me.
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creator of zombies
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 10:28 Edited at: 17th Jan 2010 10:29
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Quote: "
Also, mentioning carotid arteries and how legs or elbows are broken isn't that realistic."


I hate to burst your bubble here, but what I stated is completely realistic. Coming from a military, unarmed combat background, you are taught the mechanics of limb jonts (emphesis on joints) on the body. Granted the limb may not break on the first attempt, but repeated hard strikes to a joint, will fracture or break it. This is especially evident on the joint muscle (which isnt protected by a vast amount of muscle), so pushing the joint sideways with a kick would result in a fracture.

Regarding carotid arteries, this is probably one of the most effective techniques in combat. A hard repated blow to any region on the side of the neck will disable the aggressor. Okay, so it might not knock him unconscious on the first blow, but it will deffinately cause extreme pain and stun the attacker.

The point I'm trying to make here is the fact that all techniques during combat aren't just ececuted once, they are executed repeatably to maximise effect.

Quote: "I'd suggest studying Krav Maga techniques, for a down-to-Earth version of all this."

Unarmed combatatives such as LINE system etc are down to earth. They are simple, effective techniques that end a violent, life threatening attack. I suggest that you one day undergo training in real unarmed combatatives, which will then help you appriciate what I'm saying.

CoZ

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 12:49
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What I don't appreciate here is the emphasis on causing serious injury and the way it's presented. If it was designed for combat personnel, I'd understand the emphasis, but for self-defense I think it's a bit over the top and misses to mention the effects of breaking or rupturing anything on an opponent.

What you've written isn't realistic in the sense that someone who is in fact already threating your life will be adrenaline-pumped enough to shrug off much of what's happening and that your text presents it in a matter-of-factly way that leaves little room for interpretation.

Even someone stabbed multiple times with a knife might not notice the bleeding until after the adrenaline is no longer pumping. Pain itself is not a good deterrent in a real-life situation.

By the way, I do have training. Military and otherwise.
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creator of zombies
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 18:20
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Quote: "adrenaline-pumped enough to shrug off much of what's happening "

I agree totally here, up to the point where you said:
Quote: "Pain itself is not a good deterrent in a real-life situation."
So your telling me that an edge of hand strike to the trachea would not be enough to cause pain/injury to your opponent?!? Iv'e done alot of doorwork throughout the years, and in a few rare cases have had to result to physical methods; one being a cupped blow to the side of the neck. Now keep in mind the aggressor was twice my size, but still hit the floor with a loud thump (followed by waking up a short while later, and then being escorted out) does demonstrate that the above techniques can be effective without the use of lethal force...however, I appriciate your argument regarding the fact that this should probably be taught to military personnel for the basis of combat and not civilians.

CoZ

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 20:55
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I can appreciate your example, but I also mentioned before that you must know exactly where to strike or be very strong to cause that type of effect.

It seems to me that you know what you're doing, but that doesn't immediately give credit to the technique itself. Teaching techniques for professionals to people with little to no prior experience can be very dangerous.

I loathe violence in any shape or form. Ironic, when you enjoy games where "headshot" is something positive. But violence in games and violence in real life are two completely different things. The grunts in Halo or overly stereotypical Arabs and Russians in Modern Warfare aren't real people with values, families and dreams, after all.

Self-defense is useful. But advocacy of "pre-emptive strikes" or strikes which can cause crippling or even lethal injuries isn't the type of thing I condone.
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