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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Special Forces/Military

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Terrestrial Productions
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 01:11
I think most people know who is looking at it now is thinking something like "Oh gosh this kid is just trying to start another argument." I actually am really liking the Military talk on my other thread until I flared up (Yes it was MY fault, I shouldn't of made political comments at such a level.) the last thread. I really want to continue the conversation about Military related careers. I really apprieciate your posts people, expecially Herakles cause he has personal experience with Military oriented activity. Anyway I really want to continue this DISCUSSION not ARGUMENT, so if you want to get into political, religious, or other ARGUMENTABLE material you know is going to cause an argument then please dont post.Anyway:

I appriciate your posts on the other thread guys! I am starting to think about this Military realated material more thoughroly, and my life goal is still to be trained as a Special Forces officer but not as a front line soldier. I think I am still going to go through the training and stuff, but maybe for a different role than going in and seeing how many one shot kills I can make. More like reconnassaince type stuff where I spy out enemy lines, and also rescure captured soldiers.

P.S. I didn't want to become a Green Beret through gaming (the only war oriented type game is Americas Army: Which if you have ever played know is a small option compared to COD4, which i don't even play much), but through sports. When I started playing 7th grade Football I wanted to be physically, mentally, etc strong, and my choice was SF.


Terrestrial Productions
Indicium
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 02:19
Quote: "and also rescure captured soldiers."


So what your basically saying is you want the non-combat aspects of the armed forces? I assure you, retrieving POW's is not non-combat

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 02:29
No matter what position you take in the millitary, if it's anywhere near enemy territory there is ALWAYS a chance you could be attacked or shot down or hit by a roadside bomb and taken hostage.

Athlon64 2.7gHz->OC 3.9gHz, 31C, MSi 9500GT->OC 1gHz core/2gHz memory, 48C, 4Gb DDR2 667, 500Gb Seagate + 80Gb Maxtor + 40Gb Maxtor = 620Gb, XP Home
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Satchmo
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 03:45
Listen to what people are telling you, don't block it out. You're only in 8th grade, you don't know what you want.

Veron
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 04:12
Aah, we don't need another thread on this do we? There's nothing more we can tell you that we haven't told you already. Plus, you're too young to join anyway, so there's no need to even be thinking about it for another few years.

Peter H
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 07:25 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 07:26
Seriously,

Take a few years to think about it, keep yourself in good shape (because that's just a good life habit, and will be useful even if you don't join the military.)

But this is way to early to be thinking about this. Almost unhealthily early. I too thought about joining the military (except it was when i was 17), i eventually decided not to (I didn't want to have America tell me who to kill >_< )...

Your life goals will change over time, don't lock yourself into one thing. Just because you've already told people it's what you want doesn't mean you can't change your mind.

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Keo C
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 08:21
Quote: "I appriciate your posts on the other thread guys! I am starting to think about this Military realated material more thoughroly, and my life goal is still to be trained as a Special Forces officer but not as a front line soldier."

I believe you've spent as much time thinking about this as you put into your post. Anything else I could add here is already covered in this thread or the previous one.

Quote: "I think I am still going to go through the training and stuff, but maybe for a different role than going in and seeing how many one shot kills I can make."

Let's set aside the fact the army isn't constantly in war and has a lot of other jobs for people to do. If we were all able to make one shot kills, things such as automatic weapons pointless. However, there's always the option to carry around 40 pounds of equipment and get stuck in unpleasant weather for hours if that appeals to you.

Quote: "More like reconnassaince type stuff where I spy out enemy lines..."

Completely off-topic and out of context, but are these related to the Terrorist Arrows?


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lazerus
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 12:24
Out of pure curiosity have you ever used a gun?

Actually ill put this in context for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7fhzDUOsxI&feature=related

Any person how has ever looked through a scope knows what am talking about, That man you see 'Your enemy', you can see if hes shaved, you can see what hes wearing, you know if hes married or brushed his hair or teeth this mourning. You will watch him die from the worlds greatest view as his brain is splattered against people near by. You will remember everything about that man for the rest of your life, then you have to do it again and again and again for how ever long your order to. When you finally stop, you will see thier faces every where, on passerbys on friends, family you will take them to the grave with you. After all its your responsibilty, your exchange for taking thier lives, you will carry thier burden to the grave.

If you can live with that, your a better man than me.

Im a very, very good shot with my rifle, but i still refuse to hunt or kill things needlessly. If thats the glamourus life you want then by all means do it. I for wont, will never take a lifestyle like that.

-Con

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 13:09
Quote: "If you can live with that, your a better man than me."


Oh, I disagree entirely. It's not better to be a mindless killer.

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David R
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 13:12 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 13:12
Quote: "If you can live with that, your[sic] a better thoughtless killing machine than me."


Fixed

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Virtual X
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 13:29
I'm in the British Army, I applaud your valour to be part of the armed forces but please don't be fooled by what you see in computer games as it's seldom like that in reality.

You need to know that it is what you WANT to do, look deep within your soul and ask yourself, why do I want to join the army?

You mention that you want to become a special forces officer and not a front line soldier, what do you think a special forces officer will do? sit behind a desk shouting orders? when you mention 'Special Forces' I assume you mean something like the SAS, or Commandos? Paras?

At the moment, you are still young, but please get some life experience before joining and dont join straight from school, if that is what you REALLY want to do. Forget all the computer games you have ever played, not reality!

If you have an opportunity to try a 'look at life' course before joining then please do, it may not tell you everything you need to know but it will give you a very basic glimpse.

KNOW ALL THE FACTS BEFORE SIGNING!
Fallout
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 13:33
I have an uncle who has done pretty much everything in and out of the military. He's retired now, but still doing various bits and bobs on a contract basis. A very illustrious career, would be a good way to put it.

Up until recently, he's never spoken about it with me. I've always been too young. However, now I'm pushing 30, I've actually had a few conversations with him about the various things that go on at the more extreme end of things. From that, I've learnt a few key things about the sort of person that makes a good special forces type solider.

Firstly, you have to enjoy shooting at people. His exact word were "I enjoy a good firefight". You have to have no reservations about going off to kill. He has a very simplistic view of people. He has people he cares about who he would protect, people who don't bother him, who he would "do the right thing by" (help or ignore depending on the situation), and then people who are against his goals, who he would do anything to eliminate. And that goes for war and back home. Obviously in war that means kill, and back home, that means whatever it means ... however we trump people in organised society.

Secondly, he once told me "You have to have a lot of bottle". Now, I know personally, I don't. I could never do it. If you're not the sort of person who would stand up to 3 guys at once, and be prepared to take a kicking if things don't go your way, you're not the Special Forces sort. Similarly, if you're stupid enough to put yourself in situations like that, you're not the special forces sort.

I don't know what else to tell you. It's only partially to do with your skill, fitness and intelligence. It's also largely to do with what sort of person you are. If you're sensitive and compassionate, or at all indecisive, or at all submissive ... I could list more here ... you are probably not the correct sort.

I don't know whether that's you or not, but it's worth thinking about.

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Veron
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 14:20 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 14:21
Quote: "and my life goal is still to be trained as a Special Forces officer but not as a front line soldier."


Here you're throwing around terms that you don't really understand, as Virtual X pointed out. Spec ops officers (are they even officers? over here they're enlisted only) are often at the forefront of battle all this behind enemy lines crap that you see in movies falls to teams that you simply can't "apply" to join, for example, TAG(E) over here - they pick their men from the best of the commandos, you can't simply apply to join it. Navy SEAL's have been deployed to Afghanistan on numerous occasions, and when they're not doing that, they're just training back at home or overseas. TLDR: The 'behind enemy lines' stuff rarely happens.

Then again, there's no point in spouting (very good) SOF advice to someone who is too young to actually understand it properly. Especially when you probably won't remember it 4 years from now.

EDIT: Can I also ask a question? Why don't you want to be a 'normal soldier' in the army? What do you see as the differences between someone in the army/USMC and someone who is part of a SOF unit?

lazerus
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 14:34
Quote: "EDIT: Can I also ask a question? Why don't you want to be a 'normal soldier' in the army? What do you see as the differences between someone in the army/USMC and someone who is part of a SOF unit?"


Probably since it sounds more glamorus and games normally follow such groups.

crispex
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 12:47
Quote: "Out of pure curiosity have you ever used a gun?

Actually ill put this in context for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7fhzDUOsxI&feature=related

Any person how has ever looked through a scope knows what am talking about, That man you see 'Your enemy', you can see if hes shaved, you can see what hes wearing, you know if hes married or brushed his hair or teeth this mourning. You will watch him die from the worlds greatest view as his brain is splattered against people near by. You will remember everything about that man for the rest of your life, then you have to do it again and again and again for how ever long your order to. When you finally stop, you will see thier faces every where, on passerbys on friends, family you will take them to the grave with you. After all its your responsibilty, your exchange for taking thier lives, you will carry thier burden to the grave.

If you can live with that, your a better man than me.

Im a very, very good shot with my rifle, but i still refuse to hunt or kill things needlessly. If thats the glamourus life you want then by all means do it. I for wont, will never take a lifestyle like that.

-Con"


Very deep man. I can't say I've ever had that experience, but I've watched people die by the hands of another. Believe me, I am by no means a Liberal, but we've got too much senseless killing going on in today's world. The media portrays the enemy as a vicious monster, but the fact is that they have families, friends, and others who care about them. They feel the same hurt that one of the families over here feels.

The media also portrays soldiers has heroic and outstanding people, while true in some cases, look around online, and you will find multiple instances of soldiers abusing their rights in another country. Soldiers are throwing puppies, shooting anything that moves, and so on. Keep that in mind, war isn't glamorous at all.

As for your "officer" ranking you wish to obtain, you must first go through hours of vigorous training. They break you, mentally and physically. They take you and make you wish you would have never enlisted. I myself had to do my senior paper (a paper all seniors in my former High School had to write about a subject, in-depth), on the military and training. As part of the report, we had to spend a day doing what the standard soldier did. They threw me into a "basic training" exercise, in which I had to run, dodge, and climb. I'm not exactly what you would call an athlete, but I'm an average person that goes into basic training. It's tough, very tough. After that, we had to take a 1 mile run (not jog or walk), with over 40 pounds of equipment strapped to your back (I had a friend with me, hence why I'm saying "we").

If you go for Special Forces, you will not be given an officer title right away, you will have to work your way for it, being both a foot soldier while still trying to have a smidgen of respect for your superior officers. Good luck, but you might want to reconsider if you don't think you have the physical or mental ability. Mainly, I don't have the mental ability. Someone can be trained physically, easy, but to break someone mentally, that's tough. I enjoy going to a shooting range, but I've never had to shoot at someone. Why do you think soldiers returning never answer the question, "did you shoot anyone?".

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Herakles
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 21:22
Quote: "The media portrays the enemy as a vicious monster, but the fact is that they have families, friends, and others who care about them."


Exactly. The so called "enemies" are people, just like all of us, who have been brainwashed by their leaders' propaganda. From childhood, a "terrorist" is mentally beaten and broken so that they become the mindless killers that their leaders use. So you shouldn't look down on the people who try to blow themselves and other people up, you should look down on the people who brainwashed them and told them to do so.

crispex
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 21:33
Also, for those who don't blow themselves up, but still fight (and aren't brainwashed), they are fighting for their beliefs. Who are we to say what some people are more wrong than others?

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 22:50
Quote: "who have been brainwashed by their leaders' propaganda"

OR perhaps we are the brainwashed ones? You can never be sure...

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General Jackson
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 23:50
A man in the military who kills somebody is NOT a mindless killer.
He is simply doing his job.
It is NOT wrong to kill the enemy, no matter how terrible it is.
TP if you want to go into the Military there is absolutely nothing wrong with that
Thousands and thousands do
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Fallout
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 23:54
Quote: "OR perhaps we are the brainwashed ones? You can never be sure..."


Definitely. Most of the US and a large proportion of UK still think it was OK to invade Iraq. How much more brainwashed can you get?

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 00:43
Quote: "Who are we to say what some people are more wrong than others?
"

Well considering the terrorists are the one's that commit acts of terrorism against innocent civilians after no direct provocation (other than them disliking the western way of life and our "heathen" religions), I'd say there is a pretty clear definition of who is "right" and who is "wrong". Yes, they may have been brainwashed to hate our culture, but that doesn't make it okay. After all, the people that brainwashed them were likely brainwashed themselves, and so on. Until enough people break the cycle and open their eyes to the world past the ignorant and extremist eyes of their governments, families, or cultures (which might never happen), it will always be that way.


crispex
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 02:41
But in their countries and cultures they live by the rules of knowing they can be attacked, and believe me, they aren't exactly surprised by it. The problem is that American's and other countries, who are completely ignorant to other cultures, go in and assume that everyone is a bad guy. We walk into 3rd world countries, destroy their economies, suck the blood that is their oil, then leave them to pick up the remains.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Terrestrial Productions
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 02:42
Quote: " Can I also ask a question? Why don't you want to be a 'normal soldier' in the army? What do you see as the differences between someone in the army/USMC and someone who is part of a SOF unit?
"


Sure . I don't want to be a normal soldier because a normal soldier is just that: normal. They still go out in the field, but they still are "normal" soldiers. Also not to get out the point that some soldiers are better than others, they aren't. I know a decent number of soldiers who've been over seas (at least I thinks it's decent) and I have the deepest respect to them. I don't know how it feels to know that any second could be the last moment here on this earth, and that you know that if it is then you won't be there to comfort your wife and kids, but I do understand (I think ) what they have had to do because of their choices they made, or were forced to make, and because of that I couldn't respect any soldier more regardless of skin, race, religion, etc. I know that they know that they made a choice to fight for their country and to take a risk, but it's up to them to know if it's right even if it means going against a higher ranking officers orders. So it's not that I don't think a "normal" soldier isn't good enough, but from what I've researched Special Forces normally have to go to the extreme in pretty much everything, and "normal" soldiers don't have a job of it (although in war EVERYTHING is extreme) and I want to live my life becoming one of those respected men, and since I'm at it I might as well try to become the best I can be. I will say I'm an overachiever (I, again, hope )

I actually used to, at the begining, wanted to be a Marine, but when I researched it I want to be in that branch. I think it was because it was normally a "Go in on a boat then send in the Marines on the coast" type of job (I think), and I didn't want to be that type of soldier. I want to be more of a lands type soldier.

Lazerus- Yes I have used a gun. Rifle, BB, Paint, Muzzle-loader, M4/M16, and I think it's the M203 machine gun (or is that the grenade launcher )

And again I want to join the Military because of SPORTS not those "glamorous FPS' ".

Quote: "Any person how has ever looked through a scope knows what am talking about, That man you see 'Your enemy', you can see if hes shaved, you can see what hes wearing, you know if hes married or brushed his hair or teeth this mourning. You will watch him die from the worlds greatest view as his brain is splattered against people near by. You will remember everything about that man for the rest of your life, then you have to do it again and again and again for how ever long your order to. When you finally stop, you will see thier faces every where, on passerbys on friends, family you will take them to the grave with you. After all its your responsibilty, your exchange for taking thier lives, you will carry thier burden to the grave.

If you can live with that, your a better man than me.
"


It doesn't neccassarilly is just being a better man than someone else. I think that it could be more of man with a concience, where they know that they've done something and they regret it (although I think that helps them to be better men) My view of someone being a better man than someone else is that they have a choice to do something for themselves or something wrong and they choose to the right thing or the thing for someone else, and they deal with it. To put in an example: You see an enemy soldier on the ground wimpering in pain, or without a gun, or in someway not able to fight back, and instead of shooting him you give hom the chance to be able to fight back, or you heal them and give them a chance to live. That man could be the man to kill you ro someone close to you, or he could be the man who chooses not to shoot you because you helped him out. If he killed someone and you know it you have to live with knowing he killed him/her for his defence of his country or someone else, instead of you killing him out of cold blood.

I think that we can't judge someone else. They made a choice and it's up to them to decide if it's right or wrong. I do believe that the terrorists are an extreme group of religious people who believe that they have to kill us. It might be right, and it might be wrong- it depends on how they act. Thats one of the problems with society today that people judge others before themselves.


Terrestrial Productions
Herakles
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 02:50
Quote: "It is NOT wrong to kill the enemy, no matter how terrible it is."


Of course it is ultimately the right thing to do to kill people who would kill innocent people, but it is still tough on the soldiers who have to do the killing. You can sit in your warm comfy homes and say you could do it all you want, but it's completely different when you're standing over the corpse of a person that you've been forced to kill.

The biggest issue isn't whether you would be willing to put yourself in danger and to have to kill people (though that is AN issue), it's whether you'd be willing to suffer the guilt for the rest of your life. Because, as necessary and just as the killing is, you'll still feel guilty (that's just a harsh fact of the human conscience), and it will eat away at you for the rest of your life.

General Jackson
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 03:05
Quote: "You can sit in your warm comfy homes and say you could do it all you want"

I never said I could.
I dont know that I could pull the trigger on a man. Trust me, I know it would be a tough thing to do.

Now if someone broke into my house that would be different...

crispex
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 04:33
Even then, you would have a bit of restraint. Shoot to wound if you have to shoot. Never shoot to kill.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
KeithC
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 04:54 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 04:57
Quote: "Even then, you would have a bit of restraint. Shoot to wound if you have to shoot. Never shoot to kill."

This is something I'd expect to hear from someone who has never served in the military or a combat zone (which I have).

You ALWAYS shoot to kill (center mass); it is how we are trained, from the start of rifle training and qualifications. If you think you can shoot accurately enough (while under fire or otherwise) to wound an enemy, than you must be in a Hollywood production. An enemy who is not dead, is an enemy that can still fight and kill....period.

Most of what I've read here is what we call "armchair quarterbacking"; people who have the luxury of time, to think about how they'd handle one of the thousands of scenarios that might come their way....all without the accompanying increase in heart rate and sense of self-preservation, not to mention not wanting to see your buddies get shot because you either hesitated...or wanted to "shoot to wound".

Quote: "Most of the US and a large proportion of UK still think it was OK to invade Iraq."

What statistic are you basing this on? All the polls I've seen here show the opposite. I never agreed with going into Iraq in the first place; I felt we should stay on point in Afghanistan. Sure Saddam was a piece of garbage; but the World is full of them. I don't have any illusions about the relation to oil and the importance of the Middle East.

Quote: "I don't want to be a normal soldier because a normal soldier is just that: normal."

Hate to burst your bubble; but I don't know any "normal soldiers". There are no real frontlines in the War we're engaged in; you've got just as much chance of being mortared in a secure base over there, as you do getting hit with an IED on a convoy.

As far as the culture and way of life go; ask the women how they feel about being treated over there. How about the kids? Everytime I went through Nasyria (and other towns/villages) on a convoy, they were throwing kids in front of our trucks to try to get us to stop! This I saw with my own eyes. I could go into a whole plethora of comments on some countries "culture"; but I wont.

Does that mean we're right, here in the States? Nope; but we sure do try to help where we can. Soldiers are not the Government; we don't do the sending...we are sent. We don't get to choose what missions or Wars we want to engage in...never have.

I see quite a few statements in this thread that are just plain misinformed. Unless you've "been there and done that"; you really don't know what you're talking about. You're free to have an opinion of course (something else the soldier has given you); but I'm also free to disagree with you.

-Keith
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 05:53 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 05:53
Quote: "Definitely. Most of the US and a large proportion of UK still think it was OK to invade Iraq. How much more brainwashed can you get?"


Don't get into that debate unless you want to get the thread locked and a slap. Thanks.


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Peter H
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 06:32 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 06:35
Quote: "Does that mean we're right, here in the States? Nope; but we sure do try to help where we can. Soldiers are not the Government; we don't do the sending...we are sent. We don't get to choose what missions or Wars we want to engage in...never have.

I see quite a few statements in this thread that are just plain misinformed. Unless you've "been there and done that"; you really don't know what you're talking about. You're free to have an opinion of course (something else the soldier has given you); but I'm also free to disagree with you."


two things that drive me crazy.

1) U.S. Military Service is VOLUNTARY. You do have some choice, the judgement call is made when you sign up. By signing that form you are responsible for the decisions that the government makes. It sucks, but it's the way it works. I think many people take it as a cop-out, "Well, it's all about the brother-hood, we take care of each other... the government is bad, but don't blame the soldiers."

It makes me sick to hear this over and over again when every soldier in the U.S. army is a volunteer that went in knowing full well that they would be at the mercy of the government.

I have friends in other countries who are required to serve in the military. It's almost insulting to complain about not choosing our wars when we're voluntarily signing up and they don't even have that luxury...

2) In the past, soldiers HAVE died to give citizens in America the right to live freely. (Civil War, World Wars, etc). However, the current military is not directly defending America... It is a presence to deter attacks, and at the same time we decided to help out the rest of the world (whether they want it or not is a flamebait topic so i won't touch on it).

Soldiers aren't currently dying because America has been invaded and our rights are being threatened... they are dying because we are trying to protect the rights of other country's citizens. Not necessarily a bad thing, but people need to get their facts straight.

Sorry if i come on strong, it's just a pet-peeve of mine, not really directed at your ideas personally. More of a general rant towards ignorance on the topic. I agree with all of your other points...
[/end of bottled up rant]

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Fallout
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 26th Jan 2010 10:42 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 10:45
Quote: "What statistic are you basing this on? All the polls I've seen here show the opposite. I never agreed with going into Iraq in the first place; I felt we should stay on point in Afghanistan. Sure Saddam was a piece of garbage; but the World is full of them. I don't have any illusions about the relation to oil and the importance of the Middle East."


I based that on old statistics probably. I think you're right and the opinions have indeed changed. But my point stands that initially, we were just as brainwashed as any terrorist, and we believed in an unjust cause. The key difference is, because we're still alive, we can change our minds and realise the truth.

Quote: "Well considering the terrorists are the one's that commit acts of terrorism against innocent civilians after no direct provocation (other than them disliking the western way of life and our "heathen" religions), I'd say there is a pretty clear definition of who is "right" and who is "wrong"."


Iraq is the perfect example of why we're hated. We have destroyed a country, with no justification, and indirectly killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians (by bringing down the country security). That is why we are hated.

Terrorism is the only effective way these people can fight back. IT WORKS. They cannot fight us on our own terms. And now public opinion and support for war has changed, largely due to the fear of terrorism, and the way it brings the situation into the public eye.

Terrorism is horrific, and cannot be justified, but I completely understand why it's done, and I think it is their only option. Most of all, we have brought it upon ourselves. You only ever need to look at Iraq to see that we are just as bad, only in a far more clandestine way.

Radical hamsters skipping furiously into the blue ether, questioning their very existence while breathing out the bitter fog of smoked haddock.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 11:23 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 13:11
It probably doesn't help for people's opinions on the West that it was an illegal war (the investigation has shown that already). Though I'm not sure if it was so much brainwashing and just complete misinformation. "Iraq has WMDs, so we're invading." then, "it looks like there weren't any".

Quote: "1) U.S. Military Service is VOLUNTARY. You do have some choice, the judgement call is made when you sign up. By signing that form you are responsible for the decisions that the government makes. It sucks, but it's the way it works. I think many people take it as a cop-out, "Well, it's all about the brother-hood, we take care of each other... the government is bad, but don't blame the soldiers.""


Whilst this is true, it is not uncommon that people sign up trusting their government's action to only learn in hindsight that the government decision isn't one you agree with or you signed up for one war to only find you're fighting another or you start with a different view on the situation - they could easily be opinions formed based on political or army propaganda (and yes, it is propaganda, they'll present things more in a positive light than negative, if army adverts, for example, were done much more like the 'Think!' adverts in the UK, I'm sure fewer would sign up), but experience leaves you to understand differently. The issue is, it's not an ideal world and a country needs its armed forces, if it were, they wouldn't. (Even Costa Rica has some military protection, even though they themselves don't have one)

Once you're a soldier, it's not as if you could exactly turn around and go back, you become the hand of a government, your opinion doesn't matter neither does your conscience. You're trained to follow orders. At least this is how I understand it. Again, I lack that experience, so it's not as if I can say it 'fact'.

Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 12:09
You are correct Sep. You do not have a choice. It would be AWOL if you legged it.

As you said, you become the hand of the government without any choice in the matter. This is fine if your government is conducting a just war (for example, Arghanistan), but when it is not just, there is nothing you can do. Aside from dishonourable discharge, you'll have to stay the course.

Unless you blindly trust your government, a military career is not for you. Apart from the slight fear of getting killed, my disagreement with foreign policy is the only reason why I didn't join. Otherwise I would've loved to have joined the Signals.

Radical hamsters skipping furiously into the blue ether, questioning their very existence while breathing out the bitter fog of smoked haddock.
Veron
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 14:55 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 14:55
Yeah, you don't have a choice in what type of deployment you get when it comes to conflicts. You do however get a choice of what internal deployment (squadron/unit/whatever) you get deployed to, depending on the position you apply for. For a ground soldier that might not be the case, but down here with 4 sqn's of hornets, there are different opportunities to be based in different locations - and different bases, strangely enough, perform very different tasks and deployments. The guys who are based up north are usually the ones who head to RMAF Butterworth and RFA, as opposed to us on the east coast.

You've always got a choice in conversions and aircraft types in some roles as well (not just pilot, but CREWATT and all that stuff) so there is some choice in where you go and what you do.

Iraq war - don't go there, Jeku made it clear, and threads like this are interesting, we wouldn't want it locked.

Shaun Of The Dead
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 18:20
Quote: " An enemy who is not dead, is an enemy that can still fight and kill....period."


A dead enemy takes one man from the battlefield.
While an injured one would take away 3 (One injured and two to carry him to saftey)

Thats why the British use the 5.56mm NATO round, to injure the enemy and make the battle easier in the long run. An injured enemy could take weeks, or months to get back on the battlefield.

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KeithC
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 19:03
Quote: "1) U.S. Military Service is VOLUNTARY. You do have some choice, the judgement call is made when you sign up. By signing that form you are responsible for the decisions that the government makes. It sucks, but it's the way it works."

Thank God it's voluntary! If not for the volunteers, it WOULD be required to serve...so that argument is irrelevant in this case. You are also wrong about the decisions the government makes being our responsibility; by that logic, anyone who votes or pays taxes is responsible for any Wars conducted under a government's watch! Again; your opinion, followed by mine.

Quote: "I have friends in other countries who are required to serve in the military. It's almost insulting to complain about not choosing our wars when we're voluntarily signing up and they don't even have that luxury..."

I have worked and trained with the British and German Armies; I know about the conscription in the German Army. Again, without the volunteer Army here in the States, it would be a requirement. It's insulting to hear someone give an opinion that isn't based in reality, or grounded in factual information.

Quote: "Unless you blindly trust your government, a military career is not for you."

Please stop acting as though service members are ignorant of the ways of the world. Many of us are College educated, with more real-world experience (including non-conflict experience) than most of the posters on this board combined. There are bad people in the World who, like it or not, want to see innocent people die.

Sure; there have been far too many civilians killed in this (and other) War, none of us want to see that. But when you have an enemy firing on your position, using innocent civilians as shields; you have to do what you can to minimize the civilian casualties, but they do occur. Even when we were using similar tactics to fight the British (guerrilla warfare), we didn't use innocents as human shields; so there's no comparison there either. The second go around in Fallujah began by us telling the City to clear itself out, because we were coming in to take care of business. We could have just leveled the place and saved numerous American lives; but we took the more dangerous path. You can't blame the United States for all the ills of the World; it's an impossible assumption. I don't see any countries barring us from giving them aid and comfort.

Quote: "You do however get a choice of what internal deployment (squadron/unit/whatever) you get deployed to, depending on the position you apply for."

Perhaps in the Aussie Military, but not so in the US (unless you are going for a VERY specific job, even then you get sent to whatever unit they need you in...unless you get something in writing).

Quote: "A dead enemy takes one man from the battlefield.
While an injured one would take away 3 (One injured and two to carry him to saftey)

Thats why the British use the 5.56mm NATO round, to injure the enemy and make the battle easier in the long run. An injured enemy could take weeks, or months to get back on the battlefield."

Now you're discussing Western tactics, with those of other nations/cultures. While it is true that in our case it takes more people out of the fight to deal with a wounded comrade, that is not so with other fighting forces. Look at Vietnam and the Middle East; they don't care for their wounded in the way that we do. For example; we don't use suicide bombers.

Look guys; it's obvious where my opinions lay, I won't be swayed because I've seen it and experienced it. Just like I don't assume what a FireFighter or World Leader does is right or wrong; because I don't have the facts (not the youtube facts....the actual facts). Just like any other job or profession; until you've walked in those shoes, all you have is opinions on the subject.

-Keith
David R
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 19:30 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 19:35
Quote: "Now you're discussing Western tactics, with those of other nations/cultures. While it is true that in our case it takes more people out of the fight to deal with a wounded comrade, that is not so with other fighting forces. Look at Vietnam and the Middle East; they don't care for their wounded in the way that we do. For example; we don't use suicide bombers.
"


This is a very important point: Especially because, if Iraq, Afghanistan etc. were traditional wars, they may have finished by now (opponents crushed by weapon/technology advantages). As it is, they're played on the terms of the enemy: street battles, infiltration+bomb attacks etc.

Assuming it's not superpower vs. superpower, the days of a traditional field battle / trench warfare are gone. Any opponent with lesser weapons will use indirect tactics, to remove the advantage that better tech and weapons brings

Quote: ". Even when we were using similar tactics to fight the British (guerrilla warfare), we didn't use innocents as human shields; so there's no comparison there either."


It is worth noting, however, that the vast majority of battles in the ARW were set pieces. (Although your point still stands)

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Peter H
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 19:39 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 19:41
Quote: "Thank God it's voluntary! If not for the volunteers, it WOULD be required to serve...so that argument is irrelevant in this case. You are also wrong about the decisions the government makes being our responsibility; by that logic, anyone who votes or pays taxes is responsible for any Wars conducted under a government's watch! Again; your opinion, followed by mine."


You're comparing apples to oranges here my friend.

I don't care if you agree with me, I know that won't happen as a result of a forum discussion. I do care if you use logical arguments or not (more for your own sake than mine, since you disagree with me.)

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Zeus
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 19:43
I hate the whole subject of this thread personally. Who cares what this guy wants to be when he grows up? Let him choose for himself. I do not even see why he posted this here...

Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 19:59
Quote: "Please stop acting as though service members are ignorant of the ways of the world."


Bah. Everyone is so annoyingly aggressive on this forum at the moment. I typed a lengthy response, but I have decided to replace it with this carrot .

Radical hamsters skipping furiously into the blue ether, questioning their very existence while breathing out the bitter fog of smoked haddock.
David R
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 20:09
Quote: " Everyone is so annoyingly aggressive on this forum at the moment"


Agreed. Recently it is impossible to argue points (in a serious or even a joking manner) without the continual assumption of personal attacks... ahem....

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Peter H
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 21:08
Quote: "Bah. Everyone is so annoyingly aggressive on this forum at the moment."

NOBODY IS BEING AGGRESSIVE!!! HOW DARE YOU EVEN SUGGEST THAT!!!

SHEESH some peeoeepople need to lrn mannaz

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 21:13
I propose the carrot as a peacekeeping vegetable that we deploy when things are getting heated.

Radical hamsters skipping furiously into the blue ether, questioning their very existence while breathing out the bitter fog of smoked haddock.
FredP
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 21:50
I think this thread is done so I am locking it.
KeithC
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 05:02
Quote: "You're comparing apples to oranges here my friend."


Not at all; Mangoes to Pomegranates maybe...but definitely not apples to oranges.



-Keith

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