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Geek Culture / Is it possible to do it all?

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Amyrildora
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 20:48
Hello everybody, over the past year and a half Ive been working towards making my first game, im taking lessons on modeling, texturing, animating, programming, etc. *Basically everything BESIDES concept art* Later this year im starting in on sound engineering and all of that good stuff, and as I look for college classes I cant seem to find one that offers all that im trying to learn. So my first question is
Does anyone know a good college *such as fullsail* that offers a class that does all that im trying to do. or would I have to take multiple courses
My second question being this:
Are my goals actually possible? I DO wanna do it all lol It seems very hard for me just to pick one single subject. So is it possible to do all that im trying to do? and be succesful at it?

Thanks!
Amyrildora.

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budokaiman
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 20:52
You would have to take multiple courses, I don't recommend trying to master everything. It is good for personal use, but if you want a career in video games, you will need to focus on one area, as most companies will have multiple people working on different areas.

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Fallout
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 20:58
As above. There won't be a course to do everything, and being a jack of all trades will only be useful for an indie developer. The industry will want you to be an expert in 1 thing.

If being an indie developer is all you want to be, you don't need to do any education courses. You can learn it all yourself with some hard graft.

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lazerus
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 21:14
Id rather be an expert modeler than a medicore everything. limit your skill set for now and master them, after that do the next then the next then the next. Itll be better in the long run.

Amyrildora
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 21:58
Okay, so lets say I wanna try to start my own business *im not asking for your opinion on weather or not I should do it lol* what course would I take if I wanted to take only one course?

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budokaiman
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 22:36
It depends. If you are good at math, take a 3D art, and 2D art course because it will be easier for you to learn the programming on your own. If you are better at art, take programming.

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Fallout
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 22:57
I dont think a course will teach you more than you can learn by yourself. Uni courses are all about giving you the means to self learn. So you might as well just self learn, yourself. Unless you're the sort that needs to be forced to do stuff to learn.

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budokaiman
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Posted: 19th Feb 2010 23:24
Some colleges have the course set up so that you are put in groups and have to create a project. Although you could do this yourself, you would first need to find people willing to commit them self to the project. While taking a gaming course, you can take other courses, which would be very useful.

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David R
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Posted: 20th Feb 2010 15:27
"Jack of all trades, master of none"

...is not what any company wants

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Satchmo
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Posted: 20th Feb 2010 17:16
For indi and hobby dev, you're gonna want a decent amount of skill in each area. However, when going professional, only focus on one specific skill(i.e. Modelling, texturing, programming).

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 20th Feb 2010 23:15
you can always learn yourself by screwing around with the software or taking online tutorials. because unlike classes which have their pase, you can go at your own pase. and experiment with stuff

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Jeku
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 01:03
Quote: "I dont think a course will teach you more than you can learn by yourself. Uni courses are all about giving you the means to self learn. So you might as well just self learn, yourself. Unless you're the sort that needs to be forced to do stuff to learn."


People who learn programming themselves tend to have specific gaps in knowledge over those who learn in a school environment, and there have been studies on this.


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 01:40
"Jack of all trades, master of nothing..."

If you look at the real professionals, you'll see Modellors showing off their creations in a box, programmers guiding a sphere through a maze, and level designers flying around their beautiful creations with no interactivity...

Each only works on what they should. A programmer will never build a room, nor a modellor write an AI script. Each would do it to a substandard, so everyone does their job to the best of their ability, so you get the best minds doing what they do best, to make the game what it can be...

The Slayer
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 12:18
I would suggest to master one specific skill (or two at the most), and still learn the others on your own. In my opinion it is better to know as much as you can, because wherever you go to work, whatever your profession will be, bosses always demand more and more from their employees. If they can have one person doing two different things, then they will not hesitate to fire the other. I'm not saying that you should overwork yourself just to please your boss, but you know what I mean. And, like you said earlier on maybe wanting to start your own business, then knowing a lot can't do any harm. Maybe you could follow a course of the skill you know the least, and do some evening classes to master the ones that you're already good at? Just a thought.
Anyways, good luck with whatever you decide.
Cheers

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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 13:57 Edited at: 21st Feb 2010 13:58
Quote: "People who learn programming themselves tend to have specific gaps in knowledge over those who learn in a school environment, and there have been studies on this."


I agree. I wouldn't want to suggest that going to uni is worthless. My degree taught me a lot. I agree, it definitely taught me things I would not have learnt off my own back. Having said that, the actual coding skills it taught me were no way near what I would've achieved learning myself in the same time period.

So uni definitely makes you more rounded and develops lots of other skills (soft skills, time keeping etc), but I stand by comment that if all you want to do is learn to program for your own indie projects, and becoming employable is not a concern, then your time (and money!) would be far better spent doing it by yourself.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 19:23
If you want to start your own business, you'd be better off taking a course in business

Amyrildora
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 19:41
Quote: "If you want to start your own business, you'd be better off taking a course in business"


Thats what I thought, maybe I would take the Entertainment Business course at fullsail, idk though. thankfully i have a couple of years to figure this out. Thanks to all who have answered! I think I know what im going to do training wise before college, now just to find the right course(s) for me.

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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 20:05
Quote: "So uni definitely makes you more rounded and develops lots of other skills (soft skills, time keeping etc)"


The gaps I was referring to are engineering principles, things like design patterns that self-taught people tend to not even know about.

Quote: "if all you want to do is learn to program for your own indie projects, and becoming employable is not a concern, then your time (and money!) would be far better spent doing it by yourself."


But who can do that, other than princes? I don't recommend ANYONE to not go to school and just try to make indie games for a living. It is VERY rare to make money from indie games, and most of the success stories I've read are with people with other full time jobs.


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BearCDP
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 21:14
I'd argue that Design Patterns can be self-taught, it will be learned less efficiently than in school, but I've done my own reading on design patterns (starting with the Head First book, then the actual Design Patterns text), implemented them when it seemed appropriate, and learned from what seemed to work and what didn't.

Here's another vote for mastering a single skill. Even if you try to get indie teams together, a lot of the successful indie teams still have specialists, maybe they'll double dip in a couple of areas, but they have their main area of focus. Take a look at Braid--Jonathan Blow did the design and coding, that's it. Initially he had coder art in there which wasn't too terrible, but he went to David Hellman for the final art assets because he knew he needed an artist, not someone who code code and draw, but do neither particularly masterfully.

RUCCUS
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 21:49 Edited at: 21st Feb 2010 21:54
My college (Sheridan college in Oakville, Canada) is implementing a new course next year that comes close. It covers digital animation (modeling, texturing, rigging, animating), sound engineering, and programing with the UDK engine (which is essentially scripting, not programming, but because the UDK has been developed so intensely its very similar and an extremely useful language to have under your belt in the gaming industry). I was a little disappointed to find out the course is being created now when Im already enrolled in a 4 year animation course.

Sheridan is the leading college in Canada and one of the leading colleges in the world to teach animation and art. To give you an idea of how succesful they are, at the end of the graduating year in animation, each student puts together a final movie to be screened in a big on-campus theatre. Of the dozens of employers that attend this screening, several reps from Pixar show up and pick a set of artists to hire right on the spot.

Im sure when this game creation course comes into full effect in the next year or so, there will be a similar turnout with leading game companies showing up to hire game developers.

The tools we're working with already are amazing. In the computer animation building students have access to dual-screen PC's running on the latest NVidia graphics cards with 12GB of ram. 12GB! The school gives you a copy of the latest Adobe Master Suite collection, as well as in-house access to ZBrush, Mudbox, and Maya. There are huge rooms dedicated to life drawing, storyboarding, animating, painting, etc. Its really an awesome college, I love going there. If you can make it to Canada, I really recommend it. There's also an on-campus bar, a huge computre lab for all students to use (seats like 400 people at a time), an on-campus professional printing house (I use it all the time, they can print huge pieces on quality gloss paper, full colour, for relatively cheap prices).

Im done boasting about my college, but seriously check it out if you get a chance.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 21:53
Quote: "(which is essentially scripting, not programming, but because the UDK has been developed so intensely its very similar and an extremely useful language to have under your belt in the gaming industry)."


Yeh, it's a hard scripting language but an easy programming language...

I just made a third person camera using it [/proudness]

Amyrildora
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 22:21
12GB of ram? wow..and thats in a top college? I feel proud to be running at 12gigs of ram my self
Quote: " with 12GB of ram. 12GB"


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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 22:45 Edited at: 21st Feb 2010 22:49
Quote: "I'd argue that Design Patterns can be self-taught"


I didn't say they "can't" be self-taught, but rather they're usually "not" self-taught. Unless you're digging into comp sci text books you may never come across them, and never see the need for them. I'm not arguing either way, but I remember this very discussion on Slashdot a few weeks back, regarding the gap in engineering knowledge self-trained programmers tend to have.

@Ruccus -

Quote: " but because the UDK has been developed so intensely its very similar and an extremely useful language to have under your belt in the gaming industry"


I would wager it's more useful for game designers. You won't catch programmers bragging about only knowing UDK script, and they probably won't get a job, either Watch out for the scammy art schools who promise the world and screw you in the end. I went to one when I was 18, for a year, and got royally screwed out of $12k. Unless it's accredited, I would seriously reconsider.


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 21st Feb 2010 23:00
Its accedited, you get a Bachelor out of it. 12GB of ram is huge to me, Ive never run on anything with more than 4, and Im sure a lot of other people haven't either. I know UDK wouldn't be useful if its all you have under your belt, but a lot of game companies specifically state having experience with UDK is either required or desired, as its becoming so largely used in the industry. Ofcourse if you're trying to be a programmer, you'd opt for something else, but the question was aimed at finding a course that offered it all, and so while UDK isnt "all" of it, its certainly a good foundation that someone can still build off of with regular programming on the side or take a second programming course for an additional year to fine tune their skills.

I know the types of courses you're talking about Jeku, I see them advertised on TV all the time, and cant help but laugh. But in terms of quality of the college and what you get out of it, Sheridan is offering a lot more than a scam that teaches game design when really all they're doing is showing you how to make a few cheesy models and load them into a pre-made FPS engine. This is solid stuff, proper character rigging, real feedback on what you're doing, and all that other good junk. I see it as more of a program you'd take after you've taken a more specific course geared toward one subject that you're most proficient with, be it programming or animation.
Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2010 05:10
I have worked with people who were hired right out of graduating from an art school, but in every instance they were paid less and it was a lot more difficult for them to find work. Good luck


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2010 05:49 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2010 05:57
I don't see how it'll be hard for me to find work if Pixar is hiring me right off the bat. Especially considering Im already making money and building my resume up off of freelance work in the industry.

My program's stats:

Employer Satisfaction 94%
Graduate Satisfaction 82%
Graduate Employment Rate 88%

Graduates from my program have worked on everything from the Toy Story series, star wars, Monster Inc., The Incredibles, Shark Tales, The Dark Knight, to the real oldies like Wallas and Gromit, Cinderella, and most of the more recent Pixar and Disney releases.

From a recent article outlining 2009's accomplishments from Sheridan:

Quote: "The awards season kicked off with an Academy Award nomination for Chris Williams, co-director of the Disney film, Bolt. Williams, who studied animation at Sheridan in 1995, was nominated in the Best Animated Feature Film category. "


http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/News%20and%20Events/Media%20Releases/Media%20Release%20Archive%202009/An%20Award-Winning%20Year%20for%20Sheridan%20Film%20and%20Animation%20Programs.aspx
Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2010 06:20
Well I was speaking more for programmers. Art schools are never technical enough, in my opinion, and game companies tend to hire tried-and-true "real" University graduates for tech careers. Artists? I have no idea


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David R
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2010 09:39
Quote: "! The school gives you a copy of the latest Adobe Master Suite collection, as well as in-house access to ZBrush, Mudbox, and Maya"


Surely you have in fact indirectly paid for these things though?

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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2010 10:30
I think that we can only effectively learn something if we have a need (not even a desire) to know how to do a particular thing, etc.

And that's very true of programming. We come against a hurdle that prevents whatever we are working on being finished, so we have to learn what is required, it's a necessity. There is no option of whether or not you will learn it, because without it your project is doomed.

I think this is why programming books largely don't work unless they are very clearly laid out so you can find the specifics of what you are learning, not what the book is trying to teach you. I think that's the major difference - for a degree you need all the knowledge, or at least most of it - each aspect becomes a necessity and is easier to learn, otherwise your degree is doomed.

It works both ways, because skills external to the necessities - like artwork or sound which might not be needed in a degree, well the self-taught guy might well have more experience in those. A degree leads to a career, writing games and selling them by yourself is not a career.

At the end of the day, hobbyists and self taught are more capable of writing their own games than 'pure' professional programmers, simply because they miss the external skills that they never covered in their degree. By 'pure', I mean they haven't done hobbyist development in which they might learn those external skills. At the same time, self-taught will be missing chunks of knowledge that they just never needed or couldn't figure out. That might masquerade as a few memory leaks, or result in a completely un-system friendly game. The best examples of indi titles are from ex-pro's or extremely experienced hobbyists, take an artist, sound guy, and a coder and if they are all professionals then you would end up with a much higher standard of product.

One thing is for sure, a lot of professionals like to make C++ appear more complex than it actually is - I think experienced BASIC coders would be surprised by how quickly they can pick up the syntax and put things together. All the DBPro stuff like memblocks, types, external source files, pointers... it all acts as a good introduction to more advanced languages. So if you know those things in DBPro, your in a better position to learn C++, and more relevantly, the engine that goes along with it.


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2010 16:02
Quote: "Surely you have in fact indirectly paid for these things though? "


Ofcourse, but not nearly what it would cost you to get the licenses on your own (assuming pirating is against your morals). For the cs4 package this year it worked out to around $140 CAD for a 2 year license, no restrictions on creating commercial art.

That brings up another interesting topic that I've been talking with a few of my digital instructors about. We've come to the conclusion that software companies like Adobe, Pixologic, Autodesk, etc. actually love the fact that their software is being pirated, and most likely encourage it by not doing much to prevent it. Why? Because 99% of the people pirating this software are essentially training themselves for a job in the future where they'll need to purchase - or work for a company that has purchased - the licenses to the software in case of an audit. Its like an investment, let the younglings use the software for free when they're learning, so they can come back in 5 or 10 years time and use licensed versions for the rest of their career.

Because really, the amount of pirated copies of Softimage, 3DS Max, CS4, and all the others are huge. It can take anyone that knows how to use google minutes to gain access to hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of software. I'd wager nearly all (if not all) the artists on these forums are working with pirated copies of max or zbrush, excluding the few professionals like Fletcher (though hell, he probably does too ).
BearCDP
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 07:24 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2010 07:24
That would make sense then that Photoshop is #1 on the list of pirated software by far. It would seem to me that if Adobe really cared they could probably get it a little more under control. It's the same reasoning why MS sold Windows 7 for $30 to students, and are giving away Visual Studio Professional free to students.

That being said, I paid student pricing for web premium anyway, but I won't deny that I've taken advantage of the Reaper's lack of DRM and have left FL Studio running for weeks on demo mode working on a massive track--at least until the thing crashes (hopefully I would have bounced the track by then).

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 10:36
If you go in for art, keep in mind you have to be hot you-know-what if you want to get anywhere with it (and get payed). This is especially true in the games industry. (Note, this also includes animation).

Programming is far more versatile and it pays better. Be sure to get a Bachelors of Computer Science if you do.

Sound and music, I hear, is mostly outsourced from any regular game studio.

For some people it's better to specialize, for other's it's better to generalize. In the end, it's the specifiers who get the jobs. If you are a generalist, great, I am too actually. But take your jack of all trades approach, turn it into just an overall passion for learning and then specify in something just so you have something fall back on it. BTW, jack of all trades make the best indie dev's IMO. They don't need a large team and know what everyone on the team needs because they understand the requirements/lingo.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 17:42
programming does not pay better if you're good enough at what you do. My painting teacher sells approximately 15 to 20 paintings a year, each for a minimum of $1500 each. Before his teaching years he was easily tripling that. Its all relative, if you're a great programmer and have a lot of experience in the field, sure, you're going to get a good paycheck. But the same goes for being the lead character designer or environment artist. If you work long enough, or become very skilled at your craft in a short period of time, you'll make the big bucks.
Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 20:20
Quote: " programming does not pay better if you're good enough at what you do. My painting teacher sells approximately 15 to 20 paintings a year, each for a minimum of $1500 each. Before his teaching years he was easily tripling that."


But in any given game company I've seen the top programmer is making bigger bucks than the top artist. Painters are a whole different market.


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 23:20
Does that include the game designer? The game designer can come from a background of art or programming, so its fairly equal playing ground there.
BearCDP
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 23:27
Maybe I'm disillusioned, but it would seem to me that the game designer, even senior designer, would get paid less than say the Tech Lead or engine programmer.

Amyrildora
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Posted: 24th Feb 2010 00:38
lol you guys keep on debating the situation, I have one more question. I will wanna get a Computer Science Degree? does it matter what college I get that at? cuz if not then im going ot look for some online classes.

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Feb 2010 00:44 Edited at: 24th Feb 2010 00:49
Quote: "Does that include the game designer? The game designer can come from a background of art or programming, so its fairly equal playing ground there."


I would say no. The game designers I've talked to make in the $40k a year region--- that's a pittance. Junior programmers should make more than that right off the bat. Most of the game designer/producers have come from the QA department, and many of them didn't even have a degree. I wouldn't wish on anyone to go looking for a game designer job. For one thing there's only a few game designers on entire team, so already it's a much harder position to get. Another thing is all the overtime and paperwork required.

Quote: " I will wanna get a Computer Science Degree? does it matter what college I get that at? cuz if not then im going ot look for some online classes."


In my experience, it doesn't matter. My old boss who hired me at EA had never even heard of my University. They also didn't ask for proof of a degree ownership


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Amyrildora
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Posted: 24th Feb 2010 01:09
Quote: "In my experience, it doesn't matter. My old boss who hired me at EA had never even heard of my University. They also didn't ask for proof of a degree ownership"
So...Do I really wanna get a degree in computer science or just focus on the Game design degree?

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BearCDP
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Posted: 24th Feb 2010 01:40
I say go for Computer Science. The programs are generally more reliable. You can learn game design by reading books, playing games, learn through your own experiments in design, and if you really want it that bad--going postgrad to study game design theory. Some people greatly dislike "self-proclaimed designers" who bring little to the table besides knowing how to operate level editors and a bunch of creative (stereotypically clumsy) writing. Better to make sure you have a more concrete skill in programming (or art if it's your forte); it's the gateway toward letting people know you're also a pretty good designer.

Even Full Sail's game programs were originally all computer science-oriented. I've got a friend who graduated from Full Sail before they had the Game Art and the Entertainment Business tracks went through the Game Development progra and said it was 100% coding: Making sure you knew how to code efficiently (design patterns, documentation, etc.), engine architecture, et. al. You're not allowed to use any third party libraries for your projects--if you want multiplayer, you needed to brush up on using sockets, and no SDL or SFML to help with media.

Jeku
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Posted: 25th Feb 2010 22:07
Quote: "So...Do I really wanna get a degree in computer science or just focus on the Game design degree?"


Wouldn't that depend whether you want to be a programmer? If you hate programming, a comp sci degree might be difficult to finish.


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