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Geek Culture / School for 3D Animation... worth the time?

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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 9th May 2010 00:26
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Are there jobs in the US for people with a 3D animation certificate or degree... or are most of those jobs outside the US? I'm an artist -- with an interest in the game industry (3D animation or concept art) -- looking at schools for 3D animation. Worth the time?
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Shaun Of The Dead
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Posted: 9th May 2010 01:54
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I expect there are. 3D Animation is an important part of any game developer aswell as important if your animation for a company like pixar. Try researching it, im sure you could find a few jobs that would pay nicley especially if you had the degree.

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Math89
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Posted: 9th May 2010 02:08
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I wouldn't advise studying 3D on the artistic side. Unless you are the best of the bests, you won't find a proper job, especially since artists become less and less useful.
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th May 2010 02:11
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It's all about your portfolio. I have an AAS degree in computer animation and I ended up on using it as more of an secondary degree to my bachelors of computer science in game software development degree. Meaning, I market myself as a game programmer who is knowledgeable in the art process and could probably even do some of the art as well depending on how large the team/company is.

With any sort of art degree, if you're not hot you-know-what then it's better to find something else. I tell the same thing to future art students as coaches tell athletes: get a real degree first and then focus on your passions. Art is great, but again, if your not hot stuff with it, it's going to be hard to make money and find a job.

That definitely goes for concept artists and other traditional arts and mostly applies to computer animation. You really do need a strong art background in animation to be good. The technical side is only part of it, you need to have the principals of art and old school animation down.

Also, definitely get specific on what you want to do. Concept art or 3D Animation? What about just modeling? Characters or environments?

As far as what school you go to goes, it doesn't really matter. As long as you work hard and show off a good portfolio you won't have a problem. There are a lot of folks over at Polycount who didn't even go to school for it.

Speaking of which, start hanging out over at Polycount. Here is just one thread of many that I've read over the years that talks about schooling. I suggest searching some more and maybe even posting a topic as well. There have been a lot of threads on this in the past though.

http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=60320&highlight=school

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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General Jackson
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Posted: 9th May 2010 02:44
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Teach yourself to animate - its what i did (didnt even need a tutorial).
Its fairly simple to learn how to animate, and you'll get better as you go.

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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 9th May 2010 07:48
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Thanks for the info! I'm transitioning from a career in filmmaking/screenwriting and am looking for a way to use that background and my artwork.
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rolfy
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Posted: 9th May 2010 09:04 Edited at: 9th May 2010 09:18
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Quote: "I wouldn't advise studying 3D on the artistic side. Unless you are the best of the bests, you won't find a proper job,especially since artists become less and less useful."

Dont have a clue what is meant by that, if you have artistic talent this will only help with design skills, if you believe that 'artists are defunct' because the computer does it for you, you have it the wrong way around.It seems to be a popular myth that programmers can create software that no longer needs an artist to use it, the digital equivalent of spirograph, yeah right.
Software is merely a tool (albeit an amazing one) much like a brush or chisel for an artist, I would love to see an example of this mythical software that replaces artists.
Also would love to see movies like Avatar or games like Oddworld created without artists, wonder what they would look like hmmmm.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 9th May 2010 13:35
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I would imagine that artists are becoming more in demand, especially considering the massively increasing amount of content you get in newer games


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Quik
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Posted: 10th May 2010 08:06
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i will to go a 3d design/3d animation school when iam finished where iam now (dunno word in english) why? since i want to enchance my skills even further, and, since we are very low on jobs (atleast in sweden) a degree isnt bad at all. i had say go for it. u will learn more, and u can still look up tutorials, just to learn even more having a great deal of knowledge is never bad. u will also get a degree, and this is not bad either.

tho, u must be able to afford it aswell.


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 11th May 2010 21:56
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Thanks for the viewpoints. I appreciate it a lot! Many thanks.
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Math89
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Posted: 11th May 2010 23:51
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Quote: "It seems to be a popular myth that programmers can create software that no longer needs an artist to use it, the digital equivalent of spirograph, yeah right."

That's definitely not a myth. Just take a look at what is now possible to do without artists in the field of modelling or animation: there are now physics engine coupled with AIs doing realistic animations for us (instead of having 10 animators working on it for a month, a dynamic and accurate animation can be computed in real-time), there are also many procedural texturing and modelling methods (the trees in avatar where made using genetic algorithms in order to get a consistent and realistic forest). Furthermore, the new tools are just so powerful and easy to use that anyone can do impressive things in 2D or 3D.
To me, starting a career as a digital artist seems dangerous. And I think that at the moment, finding a job in this field is quite difficult. I would suggest doing some programming course (maybe with a specialization in rendering), and learning 3D on your free time. I'm pretty sure there are also hybrid courses where you can get a bit both, which is still safer than doing only arts.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 12th May 2010 00:33
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@Math89

All those things you mentioned are not just done using code. Everything procedural in games is always a combination of a programmer and an artist. The artist still has to make a few sample animations, the programmer then finds a generic way to convert the data into animations similar to the ones the artist created. Even after that it takes an artist to judge how well the procedural generation worked, and to see if any changes need to be made.

In short, even if a piece of art is generated using code, it still takes an artist to find the right parameters to make that code work in a realistic way.


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Math89
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Posted: 12th May 2010 02:17
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Yeah but then compare the time taken for doing that compared to the time needed for doing it completely by hand. In the case of the forest in Avatar, you have a system doing it in a few hours or days (which can be reused for other purposes) instead of wasting months with artists... What's the cheapest? Hiring two programmers for something that you'll use for years giving almost instant results or hiring a whole team of artists working for a year?
And also, 'procedural' isn't necessarily what you see in those 60KB where artists combine a perlin noise with a checker texture. But obviously, if you start calling the guy who set the parameters of a simulation an 'artist' then, yes, artists will always be needed (even though I would call them 'technician', in that case).
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rolfy
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Posted: 15th May 2010 23:46 Edited at: 15th May 2010 23:56
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Again you miss the point, everything you mention is in fact tools that an artist uses, beginning to find it offensive when you suggest the guy that sets the parameters of a simulation as an 'artist' in quotation marks, maybe you need to look at the Avatar movie credits to see just how many 'artists' were involved in the making of the film. In a digital sense maybe all artists should just throw in the towel and leave it all to programmers, I have always had the highest respect for those who code its a very cool thing to learn and you can be very good if you have a talent for it, some folks need to understand that art is a talent too. The guy that set the parameters in your example was an artist long before you called him a technician, try and understand that culturally its people that count and not software.
Believe me it definitely is a myth, here's how it works.....computer only does what you tell it do.

CapnBuzz, there are a ton of jobs in the digital industry for artists in fact its the biggest growing area in the arts at present. I have worked in traditional arts for over 30 years and I moved onto computer generated work over fifteen years ago,seen it all and still get excited at new developments in the field which make my work easier and look even better by programmers who have an understanding of what artists needs are.
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lazerus
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Posted: 15th May 2010 23:59
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A computer is cold and calculated, it does not understand what is visually appealing, what art is or anything else for that matter. It only knows what we tell it, an in that narrow scope trys to make it work, It cant replace us.
If you need to call it anything call it a canvass for people to use. Saying a program can decide what is art is a myth. Saying the guy who just spent 100's of hours cerating a algorithim, editing it, making the required primitives and eventually bringing it into that lush wildlife scene is a artist. A computer just makes our lives easier, its not meant to replace the human touch.


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
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David R
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Posted: 15th May 2010 23:59 Edited at: 16th May 2010 00:07
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Quote: "The artist still has to make a few sample animations, the programmer then finds a generic way to convert the data into animations similar to the ones the artist created. Even after that it takes an artist to judge how well the procedural generation worked, and to see if any changes need to be made."


That's not strictly true - in a lot of cases that is done (particularly in the demoscene, with .dotprodukt for example) but there is nothing stopping someone from just crafting something visual from code alone.

Quote: "
Software is merely a tool (albeit an amazing one) much like a brush or chisel for an artist, I would love to see an example of this mythical software that replaces artists."


And I think you've missed the point too: Procedural generation via code alone is very much real. I'm not saying artists are redundant by any means, and normally (as already mentioned) a procedural pipeline may still involve them.

But if you think artists (or anyone, for that matter) have 100% job protection, think again. Because whilst procedural generation may 'offend' you on an artistic wavelength, you have to keep in mind one thing: It's cheaper than producing assets. That alone, I reckon, will mean a huge shift to it (that has already started, in fact. I think it has somewhat mutated along the way into 'crowd-sourcing' content creation a la LittleBigPlanet - but it'll be back with vengeance, I assure you)

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rolfy
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Posted: 16th May 2010 00:38 Edited at: 16th May 2010 00:58
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I agree no one has 100% job protection, I may be missing the point but I fail to see how procedural generation offends me on any level, truth is there are many,many aspects in design for 3d games, movies graphics whatever, that narrowing the vision of this to one element as an example of redundancy for artists is not the right way to think of it at all.
The guy wants to know if its worth his while entering a 3d animation course as a career, if you want to put him off this then fine, its his call, but as someone who actually earns a living in the arts I thought I would throw my two cents in, maybe I am just a cranky old guy who on a level cant accept that computers will replace me.
My point is, exactly what is the programmer going to do with all these assets or will you just come up with an algorithm that can imitate the diverse ways that artists think and work,its a lot more complex than first appears, take a look at all the different styles various artists have and heres the thing, art is about thinking outside of the box and coming up with new ways of 'seeing' things in a different way which in fact changes the perception of the viewer,if you want to view a 3d artist as simply a 'tool' that produces the media that he's asked to then your right he's redundant and no longer needed, but its not like that who do think came up with the designs required in the first place? If you think artists are finished due to software then so be it.
I may be wrong but I believe if movies and games are solely created by programs then they will not last long and be a fad for a while unless you can imitate the diversity of the human mind and soul in an algorithm, in fact it sounds very much like the way many folks think, that they will be able to create great works of art at the push of a button.
My point is there are a lot of areas in 3d that will always require someone with specific talents and some with broader talents, its a big world and a big industry which will require more than just programming skills or even just artistic talent, maybe I am not as narrow minded as you seem to think.
Quote: "but there is nothing stopping someone from just crafting something visual from code alone."

This is true, but what do you want to create?
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The crazy
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Posted: 16th May 2010 04:19 Edited at: 16th May 2010 04:20
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I went to school and got an associates degree for it. The degree does help, but I won't say it's 100% necessary. What helped me more than anything was the networking I've gotten in. I graduated top of my class (but there were only four of us!) which happened to be the first class of the new animation program at L.A. Film School. It's been a fair amount of exposure. Also what benefited was being taught from people who worked professionally in the industry for decades. Sure, you can teach yourself but I taught myself for six years before I went there and the greatest 90% of my knowledge came from the school.

And about the whole debate happening here: Seriously guys? Take your hate flames to email or something. If yall took over my thread like that I'd be pissed. CapnBuzz, sorry they're doing this, all you wanted was information about schools. The fact that they think filling up your thread with their petty arguing is worth more than answering your question is just rude. Shame on you guys.

Good luck buzz!
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rolfy
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Posted: 16th May 2010 09:42 Edited at: 16th May 2010 09:46
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Actually he was asking if it was worth the time and if there were jobs out there, it is as you said a debate and I see no hate flames as you put it.
I dont see why you feel the urge to apologise for others in this thread with what you see as petty arguing. I am sure if a mod felt it was getting out of hand they would deal with it. I may not agree with all thats being said in here but thats ok,their opinions are still valid to the question asked, I do however feel that a response to some of these posts was called for or should I just keep my mouth shut and not say what I think, I reckon the original poster can make his own mind up about it all.
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The crazy
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Posted: 16th May 2010 12:25 Edited at: 16th May 2010 12:28
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Arguing here would make me a hypocrite Sent you an email.

[EDIT] And yes, I agree 'hate flames' was too strong, my apologies for that
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rolfy
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Posted: 16th May 2010 13:34 Edited at: 16th May 2010 13:44
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E-mail received, and no need for apologies on either side,just felt I was being put down when in fact was defending not flaming, we are good

Edit* I still have to say though that even if I disagree with some of the views posted they are still pertinent to the original question
Quote: "School for 3D Animation... worth the time?"

So I dont think any of the above posts are hijacking this thread or in way has anyone been rude.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 16th May 2010 19:51
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There are a ton of schools offering this around me. There is high demand for good 3d animators across the board, games are not the only place they are needed for sure. There are quite a few pieces of medical training/demonstration software that have certainly used these talents. Several of the guys I know that ended up doing 3d work were QA's first with no schooling just a passion. I would say take a close look at the school and what they are offering, is it a well designed program with quality instructors or just some school hopping into the pool to offer the program.

iTitans Advergame Development

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The crazy
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Posted: 16th May 2010 21:39
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Quote: "There is high demand for good 3d animators across the board"


I'll throw this in, as I had a conversation on this same subject a couple days ago with a friend in the industry. Keeping in mind we're in Cali and I don't know if these trends change in other states or the UK. But he said there's a high demand for animators, but in order to really get work, you've got to be the cat's pajamas.
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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 19th May 2010 23:12 Edited at: 19th May 2010 23:16
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Ok, ok, ok... let's all take a breath...

Artist vs. Technician. There is a distinct difference between Artists and Technicians. The Technician will always find ways to replicate systems as realistically as possible -- physics, biology, etc. -- while the Artist represents these systems in a pleasing, emotional, or ironic way. In essence, the Technician works mainly from the physical realm while the Artist works mainly from the Emotional realm.

Having worked in the Film Industry for many years, I can easily spot a film made primarily by Technicians as opposed to Artists. Often these films die hideous deaths because they are technically well-done but cold experiences. What is needed is not either/or -- but skilled technicians pushing the boundaries of what is possible and artists who can apply those new technologies in unique and emotional ways.

As for me... I'm a filmmaker and screenwriter. I've had modest success in Hollywood. Co-wrote a big action spectacle for "Arnold" which got me in the trades and a panel at Comic-Con... but then died in development Hell. After a lot of craziness in Hollywood I want to leave that world bringing my filmmaking and screenwriting skills to a new media -- and games seem the closest cousins of film. Granted, I should have gotten this great idea in the 90's when it was en vogue for filmmakers to jump shop to games (darn you Hal Barwood!)... but I'm always slightly behind the curve. That brings me to...

A few years back a co-worker of mine was going to school for 3D animation. Because he wasn't an artist, he'd often tell me that I should have been the one taking 3D classes (I draw, paint, etc.). I think he works on BLURAY menus now. And that brings me to now...

I'm just looking for a career with some stability that has some legs where I can bring my skills to the table... is 3D animation that career? I don't know...

Maybe that will help channel this discussion?
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rolfy
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Posted: 20th May 2010 08:06 Edited at: 20th May 2010 08:11
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3d animation is used in, film,tv,advertising,web,games,forensics,medical,illustrated novels,flythru and walkthru for housing/commercial business structural developers,product design.....and on and on.
Reckon there is..it all comes down to one of two things....are you an artist or are you a technician?
If your damn good artist you'll get work, if your a damn good technician you'll get work, if your both then you really wont have any problems finding a great career path, I say any artist who ignores technology is limiting themselves, any technician that thinks he can ignore artists is doing the same.
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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 20th May 2010 08:26
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Well, I'm not much of a technician... but I'm trying to learn. Am I a good artist? Well, I'm self-taught and see my talent as middling at best, but my artwork has always gotten notice.

Thank you for your views everyone. I really appreciate them. Gives me a lot to think about at this fork in the career path.
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 20th May 2010 18:49
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I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see a sample of your work now I've heard what you've done ;p

Personally I think if it's an opportunity that's open to you, jump on it. At the end of the day it's another skill and another degree to add to the bag.

[center]You can get further with a smile and a gun than you can with just a smile.
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Errant AI
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Posted: 21st May 2010 19:04 Edited at: 21st May 2010 19:15
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For the artist-side of 3D (in the games industry), it's more important to have a traditional/fine art degree rather than a directly 3D/digital education because you're usefulness will last longer, as long as you're able to keep up with the tools and technology of the day. Many studios and developers like a bachelors or better for those without prior industry experience.

Those with a well developed artistic eye and strong communication skills have a better chance to keep jobs as lead artists and art directors. A lot of the artist grunt work can be farmed out to India or bypassed via technology but it takes people with creativity and vision to orchestrate it.

Take some time to research the school before you decide. Make sure that a student's artistic abilities are being developed beyond the tools being taught.
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