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Geek Culture / Lost manuals and CD keys - are keygens legal in this instance?

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 18th Jun 2010 23:13
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Hey, I recently dug out "The Movies" it was a fun game i used to play quite a bit a few years back, so I stuck in the disk and it got to the part where it asks for a CD key - I open up the case to find... My manual is gone -.-

What am i supposed to do in situations like this? Are keygens legal to use at times like this? xD bit confused.

I can post up a pic of my box if anyone thinks i'm trying to pirate it or something, cheers

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 18th Jun 2010 23:41
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I think you need to contact the manufacturer, post them your CD or something.

Not entirely sure really, I've lost a few CD keys in my time, its a pain when you do.

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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jun 2010 23:42 Edited at: 18th Jun 2010 23:43
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short answer would be no, since it is still an illegaly made CDkey made with an "unofficial program", what u need to do is to contact the place u bought the software from.


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Indicium
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Posted: 18th Jun 2010 23:43
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however, if you have the disk, who will ever know?

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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jun 2010 23:46
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doesnt change the fact that it is illegal, which was the question.


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Fallout
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Posted: 18th Jun 2010 23:47 Edited at: 18th Jun 2010 23:48
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Speculation ... piracy is illegal, but generating CD keys is not. I would imagine it is perfectly legal to generate a CD key, if you use the software in the way laid down by the terms and conditions (i.e. one installation per owner, on one computer etc. ... whatever it says for the specific item of software).

I just find it very hard to believe that a applying a generated CD key to software you own could be considered illegal. It's like hot wiring your own car. You're not gonna be done for theft, are you?

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 00:13
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eh, thanks guys, I've fired off an email to activision, hope they'll be able to set me up with a new key or something.

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Quik
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 00:24
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Quote: "Speculation ... piracy is illegal, but generating CD keys is not. I would imagine it is perfectly legal to generate a CD key, if you use the software in the way laid down by the terms and conditions (i.e. one installation per owner, on one computer etc. ... whatever it says for the specific item of software). "


then it should, imo, be totally legal to crack a game if you have lost the game. but it isnt


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Thraxas
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 01:21
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Quote: "piracy is illegal, but generating CD keys is not."


I don't claim to understand these things, but I doubt that things are as black and white as that.

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lazerus
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 03:43
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Morally its justified since youv already paid for a license. Legally, though you shouldnt do it. Comes down to how you read it, but i would advise being wary keygens often come with malicious extras, especially since you normally get them off unsavoury sites.


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gbark
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 03:45
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Quote: "eh, thanks guys, I've fired off an email to activision, hope they'll be able to set me up with a new key or something."


Good luck. Knowing Activision, they'll probably offer to sell you a new key, with an additional charge as a service fee.
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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 05:30
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Legal? No. Wrong? No.

I'm not condoning this though. Even if I wanted to torrent a game, I'm not too hot on that, as I despise having to leave DLs going overnight.
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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 08:18 Edited at: 19th Jun 2010 08:19
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I've torrented a couple games that I've lost CD keys too. It might not be technically legal, but I already own the game, I've just lost the key, so I see nothing wrong with it. Even if it is considered illegal, the chances of getting caught are essentially 0, with the only risk being some sort of virus, so it really just depends if you're willing to risk that.


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Quik
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 09:40
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Quote: "I've torrented a couple games that I've lost CD keys too. It might not be technically legal, but I already own the game, I've just lost the key, so I see nothing wrong with it. Even if it is considered illegal, the chances of getting caught are essentially 0, with the only risk being some sort of virus, so it really just depends if you're willing to risk that.
"


problem with this is that when you torrent a game, iam almost 100% sure u seed it to others illegally and therefore eitherway u look at it it is illegal. It is more illegal to seed the game to 50 other people than to download it just for your own cause so...

and the best way to go on the on topic problem is either to buy a new one, or demand a new one from activision, however loosing your CD-key isnt really their fault or problem so i suppose u will have to buy a new game.
However, isnt "The Movies" a pretty old game and therefore should just be like.. 20$ or something? 30 perhaps but not to expensive?


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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 12:22
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Quote: "problem with this is that when you torrent a game, iam almost 100% sure u seed it to others illegally and therefore eitherway u look at it it is illegal. It is more illegal to seed the game to 50 other people than to download it just for your own cause so..."


Actually this is a good point. However, it isn't totally true for me, as usually when I torrent anything (no, I don't torrent games, many tutorials use torrents to make downloading easier) I set the upload limit as low as possible because I'm greedy
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Fallout
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 12:27 Edited at: 19th Jun 2010 12:27
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Quote: "then it should, imo, be totally legal to crack a game if you have lost the game. but it isnt"


Cracking would break the terms and conditions for the software. It'd say something like "You will not reverse engineer, decompile etc etc. this software" in the T&C, and you'd have to do that to crack it. Entering a different CD key wouldn't break any of those terms and conditions, and therefore I personally don't believe it is illegal.

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jrowe
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Posted: 19th Jun 2010 13:18
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Quote: "Cracking would break the terms and conditions for the software. It'd say something like "You will not reverse engineer, decompile etc etc. this software" in the T&C, and you'd have to do that to crack it. Entering a different CD key wouldn't break any of those terms and conditions, and therefore I personally don't believe it is illegal."


Breaking a contract constitutes a civil offence, not a criminal offence. So unless there is a separate criminal offence, you could probably be sued, but not go to prison.

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Shaun Of The Dead
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 14:37
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Technically it is illegal. But if you were taken to court (for whatever reason if you were caught) you could argue that you already owned the game.

However, i suggest contacting the developers first, if they cant help you im sure using a keygen would be fine.

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 15:13
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yeah, got an email back saying that "We cannot offer you a replacement key due to the high level of piracy taking place. We can however offer you a discount on purchase of a new key..." :/

To be honest I didn't want to replay the game THAT badly xD
Oh well - lesson learned for the future, try not to loose manuals.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 15:33
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Quote: "Cracking would break the terms and conditions for the software. It'd say something like "You will not reverse engineer, decompile etc etc. this software" in the T&C, and you'd have to do that to crack it. Entering a different CD key wouldn't break any of those terms and conditions, and therefore I personally don't believe it is illegal."


Yeah but whoever made the keygen has reversed engineered the software. So like I said before I don't think it's so black and white as illegal or legal.

Your signature has been [mod edited] :-p
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Fallout
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 15:46
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Quote: "Yeah but whoever made the keygen has reversed engineered the software. So like I said before I don't think it's so black and white as illegal or legal."


I agree. I reckon the CD key gen author would definitely get a good kicking from the anti-piracy police, whether a user would .. I still reckon you're ok. However, I think not losing the manual in the first place is the way forward, as blobby said!

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 17:48
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from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998

Quote: "Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title."


so no its not illegal. Reverse engineering is not illegal either, disassembling would be if not covered under fair use. I think in the corporate world that is why they break those people into 2 different groups that have no direct contact with one another.

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lazerus
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 19:05
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But applying that license that you gained from the keygen violates the agreement since you dont own that said license. The key your given is meant to be unique but producing them indefinatly is illegal since you dont own the license to use each of them.

Though that only applies to those who orginally own a copy, so pirating the whole game is still illegal as is going online with the said copy.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 20:02
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Quote: "but producing them indefinatly is illegal"


can you post a link to the law that backs this statement up? As far as I have read generating the keys, even distributing a program that generates keys is not illegal. Distributing the keys themselves as authentic to avoid valid purchase and hurt the initial product would be.

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lazerus
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 20:51 Edited at: 20th Jun 2010 20:54
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Okay ill put this in laymens terms. You have a unique key to open the door to your house.

If i then broke into your house, took your key and made duplicates based on your key that work to open your door, with intent to allow others to gain access to your house. Is that not illegal?

Ofc ive compared your house to being the program and the key as a key an only a single key would actually work for your door, but thats just symantics.

Point being, you havnt paid for each of the produced license's therfore you have no right to distrubute or use them. Thats just common sense.

I could search and cite all the legal crap but right now i have a few more important things on my hands, than searching through Legal jargon about copyright and bussiness protection along with the licensing and distrubution rights of electronic and physical /programs?. Theres alot on them and i have two years of work to go through for tommorow so ill pass for now.

Edit just re-read.

For what possible reason would you distrubute a program that makes keys for another program? Everything is based on intent and with no other alternative the intent is to use said program illegally with the use of produced keys. Thats a clear black and white picture.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 20th Jun 2010 21:21
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regardless of your thoughts on common sense I was looking for the point in law you were referring to, not opinion.

If I have a unique key to my house and I lose it I can call a locksmith to open my door and make another, your analogy falls a little short as that is perfectly legal.

Now I will say that yes someone who makes a program that generates keys for a program is planning to use it to pirate that program 99% of the time (I can't speak for everyone someone might have good intent). However creating and distributing a program that does this is not illegal.

Go back to napster, limewire etc, what they developed was perfectly legal, it was what people did with it that was illegal. Then there is Youtube, legal fun site but people put content onto it illegally, they are however a legal site. The intent of the user is not the responsibility of the provider.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 21st Jun 2010 11:07
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If I buy software and am unable to use the software for any anti-piracy reasons (lost key ... online only bull crap ... or mismatched hardware) I WILL find a way to use it. I wouldn't push piracy as far as getting stuff for free. But if you bought it ... do what you have to in order to use it for your own personal use.

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Quik
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Posted: 21st Jun 2010 12:29
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Quote: "I WILL find a way to use it. I wouldn't push piracy as far as getting stuff for free. But if you bought it ... do what you have to in order to use it for your own personal use."


problem is that this is illegal, just simply downloading a game as backup is illegal, just downloading it without crack is, unless they have provided a copy or it says otherwise in the AULA or whatever it now is, then it is illegal and if your caught, then it probably wasnt worth doing so. Considering the sick amount of money you would have to pay


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 21st Jun 2010 14:12
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Yes downloading a crack itself or keygen is legal, downloading a copy of the original software even if you already own it is not protected by section 117 of copyright law.

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Quik
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Posted: 21st Jun 2010 14:15
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Quote: "Yes downloading a crack itself or keygen is legal, downloading a copy of the original software even if you already own it is not protected by section 117 of copyright law.
"


doesnt that mean that i can just download any game out there? even those which arent "protected" (meaning no CD key or alike necessary) and play em legally?


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 21st Jun 2010 20:05
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no by crack I do not mean a full version of the software that has been altered but a separate program that modifies the original (no cd, bypass copy protection etc)

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2010 05:58
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That's where the lines get really blurry, as often the crack distributes an 'altered' version of the app's files, rather than patching them. Which is not legal.


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gendestroier
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2010 22:59 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2010 23:03
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simple, if you have the box, the note (or anything else necessary) and require the serial back and not have this return,just process the company. it shoud work...

are you guys SURE there is no law stopping the user to download cracks and serials ?
it soudn't have ?

mods for creating a inteligent game,at least
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ionstream
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Posted: 4th Jul 2010 06:38
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Cracks and keygens probably fall under the DMCA's copy prevention anti-circumvention laws.

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Asteric
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Posted: 4th Jul 2010 20:17
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I always save keys into a word file on my PC, because it is inevitable for me that the manual will disappear.

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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2010 20:56
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Quote: "are you guys SURE there is no law stopping the user to download cracks and serials ?"


pretty sure there is yes

what a huge bump btw XD


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Airslide
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Posted: 4th Jul 2010 22:07
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Quote: "yeah, got an email back saying that "We cannot offer you a replacement key due to the high level of piracy taking place. We can however offer you a discount on purchase of a new key..." :/"


That's a shame. I remember losing a key for one of the Delta Force games. I called Novalogic (or maybe e-mailed them, can't remember), sent in my CD and got it back with a new key. They are a smaller company which might have something to do with the fact that they are more willing to help.

What's funny is, I too lost my manual for the Movies. I never did much with it originally and was looking to reinstall it, but never bothered trying to get a new key.

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IanM
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Posted: 5th Jul 2010 00:32
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Quote: "We cannot offer you a replacement key due to the high level of piracy taking place."

... thereby giving a great incentive to download a cracked version of a game you already own.

Honestly, sometimes these companies are their own worst enemies.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 5th Jul 2010 00:49
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Quote: "... thereby giving a great incentive to download a cracked version of a game you already own.

Honestly, sometimes these companies are their own worst enemies."


True is that. Its a massive pain when you lose a CD key, I have a load of games lying a round that I can't play simply because I've lost the manual.

The very fact that the CD key isn't stamped onto the CD itself is pretty stupid. Although it probably saves the manufacturers a couple of quid I suppose, therefore increasing the profit gained from a sale.

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 5th Jul 2010 02:36
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If I lost a manual, I would get a keygen tbh. But being as I have never lost a manual, I can't say how that worked out.

One game I bought without a manual, and there was a bunch of generated cd key on a slip of paper, which I lost (lol). But I've now bought a better version of said game new for an amount of money not worth mentioning (SimCity 4 Deluxe) so I can bin the only keygen I've ever needed.

Basically, I don't not-pirate because it's illegal, but because I don't agree with the moral side. (Although it's hardly like EA need the tiny extra money from an old game anyway)

I'd love to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my bum.
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crispex
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Posted: 7th Jul 2010 08:17
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Though I'm not a supporter of piracy. I hardly consider major software companies and the music industry is badly affected by groups of people downloading their programs. Piracy refers to stealing, stealing is removing the original in order to have it for yourself, thus disabling the original owner from using it. File sharing, however, copies the original, allowing multiple parties to use it. There is a difference.

I've always looked at it this way, most people who google, "Call of Duty keygen" or something like that, end up at a site with malware and virues, so they are less likely to ever even go back to that and would probably buy it. Only a select group of people know how to obtain warez safely.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jul 2010 21:41
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Like someone else has said, I store all my serial numbers in my Evernote account, so I have access to it everywhere, and it's secured by a password. It's a good idea and I recommend it to everyone


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