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Geek Culture / Considering switching to UDK from DBP should i?

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 09:57
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So as soon as i got into dark basic back in 2005 i finally felt that my dream of making an epic RPG is finally real. So i started trying to make a game, learning along the way. I have made some big accomplishments on the way but so far in about 4 years of work i just made a few pieces to the engine. Its not even close to even a basic rpg engine yet. I did make charecters, i animated them i made a terrain system supporting a epicly large terrains, i made day/ night cycles, but Now that i think of it, that was all easy stuff. The hard part will come when i try to make battle system, AI, inventory. equipment for the charecter to use and programming the whole storyline, make scripted events and even cutscenes. Then there is stuff like my job that takes up a lot of time and i also get distracted by crazy ideas like building random stuff out of junk. Then there are problems with DB engine that slow me down like the lack of power and compatible model formats and stuff (even tho i use primitive low poly 3d models i made in milkshape) So i figured it will take me years if not decades to get this game complete. I did have an idea of switching to an actual engine which will make my work go faster. I tried Saurbraten (cube 2 engine) and the few weeks i played around with it i really liked it, the scripting language was nice and easy and it was very modifiable but for some reason i dropped that idea because i have to start over from scratch and learn all the open GL stuff and somehow rewrite/remake everything i already did in dark basic. I went on working in DB. Then the idea started coming back to me when the UDK came out for free. Considering all the games that were made in that engine (and its powerful engine too), i thought it might be a good idea to try switching to UDK. I will however have to learn how to use UDK and learn the scripting language too. I heard the scripting language is very good and easy to use. Also by switching to an engine I will proboly avoid all the problems i had with DB. All my models i made are direct x and i can export them to the unreal engine format with milkshape. and since my graphics are pretty primitive for today (they look like the 3d graphics from 1996-1997 the chunky low poly) it shouldnt create any speed/performance issues like it did with DB. My main concern right now is remaiking my terrain system. I used T.ED to make one huge terrain and export the whole thing as a set of small pieces and in the game the pieces would procedurally load and get deleted around the charecters location. Just concerned if UDK can do something like that (They did it somehow with lineage2 i will have to look into that) So people who already played around with UDK What is it like? and how easy is it to learn? and is it possible for someone like me to jump from DB into UDK?

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 11:22
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Well, UDK isn't designed for RPGs. I'm sure it may be possible, but it's an FPS engine.
The problem is that the official, commercial version of UE3 gives you source code access so that you could modify it and make it work for your ideas, with UDK, all you get is the engine and the ability to script things.

I don't know how in-depth UDK's scripting goes but I doubt that it would allow you to modify the basic mechanics enough to create an RPG.

Hope this helps

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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 11:42
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Take a look at the language reference. I'm sure it's feasible to make an RPG, although you have to consider that the engine is primarily set up for an FPS.
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 12:20
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i saw this youtybe video demonstrating UDKs rpg capbilities, besidegames like mass effect and lineage were made in this engine

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 12:32 Edited at: 11th Jul 2010 12:34
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Unreal 3 is definitely capable of producing RPGs (like The Last Remnant), so I naturally assume UDK is as well, the difficulty of making one? I'm unsure.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 12:48
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I've seen a few UDK RPG's kicking about, there was a good one with a tonne of features, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdSo4kq8uos

Someone of your skill will pick up on the editor pretty quickly, but the scripting - I'm not sure how long it'll take, but there's tutorials for that.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=171328&b=2&p=0#m2034524
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 11th Jul 2010 13:29
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kinda dont like the conversation system in that rpg demo, its too much like mass effect. I am sure a different one can be written something more oldschool that would go better with my low poly game design

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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Jul 2010 10:58 Edited at: 12th Jul 2010 11:08
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Pagan, you're suffering from feature creep. You always want more, before you ever get anything done.

Make your game, make it incredibly simple. Then make a sequal that has all the features you want

If I were you, I'd take the engine you've got, add in simple ai (make the people wander around aimlessly), add a short story, simple combat, and get it out there.

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gamerboots
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Posted: 12th Jul 2010 13:05
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I aggree with Jerico2day. but , regardless of my humble opinion
the real question is , do you really want to start over and add more time to your project ?

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 12th Jul 2010 13:48
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Well i guess i do suffer from that. But I do get some of the things done, as i said, my main problem right now is the slow DB engine and the .dbo format having compatibility problems. Jusat spent the last few months creating mesh/dbo converters and stuff (mostly for terrain its my obsession) and again i hit compatibility problems and the tools i work with like T.ed terrain are good for my main purpose are good for what i am trying to do but they have certain problems i cant really get over again maybe because .dbo format is kinda unpopular in the big development world. So i looked at the unreal engine and considering that a lot of games were made for it and the engine is already there, probobly a ton of support for unreal 3d stuff format, so i figured if i play around with this engine for a few months, learn it and things might go faster for me especially since i already have a lot of the 3d content done. all i have to do is modify the engine to my needs and then i can start getting the fun stuff like making more 3d stuff and battle system and implementing the story.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 12th Jul 2010 23:55
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There's more support for ASE static meshes than DBO, but it's still a tough thing to work out for yourself - took me two months...

However, since I worked it out and put it in a tutorial for you, you won't spend two months sussing it out:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=170113&b=2

(Re-attached by Nomad Soul at the bottom of the page)

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=171328&b=2&p=0#m2034524
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 01:08
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Thanks. I started tinkering around with the UDK engine reading tutorials and stuff. The textures/materials stuff is pretty tricky but i think ill get the hang of it, now that i quit my job i have plenty of time to play with UDK.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 05:10
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Just because UDK was made with FPS games in mind doesn't mean RPGs aren't possible. In fact, I bet UDK is more suited towards... well... any kind of game than DBP is! I mean look at the programming language - it's pretty straightforward and it's open-ended enough to make anything you want. You just don't necessarily have to use all the tools that come with it.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 17:36
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Lineage2 was made with unreal engine so yeah

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 18:19 Edited at: 13th Jul 2010 18:22
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Gonna be honest, didn't read the whole thread, but there's a few thing you should be aware of.

I was set on making a small demo RPG for one of my game dev classes last year. What I ended up finding out is that in order to tweak Unreal Engine away from it's FPS/Deathmatch oriented gameplay, it's going to take some coding under the hood (along with some good kismet work).

For example, just trying to get enemies to spawn at trigger points AND be intelligent was damn near impossible for me. Either they existed when the game was created and had intelligence, or spawned in at the trigger point and just stood there and shot (no running). Also, custom skins on Unreal models, at least before the UDK, was difficult enough for somoene new at it to just abandon it for the time being.

My advice would be against UDK for RPG's if it's mostly foreign territory for you. It would be a shame to spend most of your time learning UDK instead of making your game.

Unity, Torque and XNA are all very viable options. Unity is free now too! And XNA has always been free, but you have to pay $100 if you want to develop on Xbox. If not, you're fine. No strings attached as long as you don't use MS's code or media in your final product.

EDIT:

Not sure if you can bring your terrain in. UDK uses subtractive editing while DBP used Additive. With unreal, you're essential scooping out and hollowing a massive solid cube that your map is in. DBP it's like your in outer space and you're just adding stuff in.

Unreal is really easy to learn so long as your doing things it naturally does. There are EXCELLENT free online video tutorials you can follow that will have you making pro death match levels in a days worth of watching. I own both the UDK books currently, and they are excellent as well. I don't think the third book has come out yet.

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Asteric
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 18:32
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Sid, Unreal is additive too.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 21:59
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well mine isnt gonna be like a traditionaql rpg, more like an adventure rpg it will still have shooting weapons. Also i am not planning to retexture any unreal models. i will make my own low poly content in milkshape, texture it with MSpaint stuff i make and export the final product to unreal format. will that work? Meanwhile ill try to figure out how to texture terrains. Btw i really like the terrain systemit has automatic lod (kinda chunky looking as it loads higer poly but some lighting tweaks should fix that maybe some other stuff too. but this thing can support really huge terrains, i like that.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 22:59
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Ah, my mistake. It's actually both. I think the older Unreal was strictly subtractive. Anyway...

Pagan, yeah, you'll have 'fun' doing that. However, things could have changed since last year though. I mean, the UDK has come out since then, so maybe they made it easier. Do a ton of reading on their forums, pick up the UDK books and watch the videos. Look before you leap, that's all I'm saying. If you want to get your hands dirty with UDK, that's fine. Just make sure it is indeed the tool you want to use, otherwise it's just time lost.

You'll get a kick out of this thread on Polycount. This team successfully modded the engine and got their own game/graphics going. Impressive project. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62779&highlight=airborn

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 23:26
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well i am certanly not planning to make an epic mmorpg anytime soon. Just messing around with the engine reading the forums and stuff. Also this might be a stupid question but what is kismet? head a lot about it but dont really know what it is? some UDK modification or something? btw the scripting is really cool

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Benjamin
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 23:27 Edited at: 13th Jul 2010 23:28
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Kismet is a kind of visual scripting tool, you link events to actions or other events. See this for an example.
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 13th Jul 2010 23:31
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oh that!, well that was the scripting thing that i like so much! just wansnt sure what it was called

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 02:32
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I couldn't find a whole lot of resources on Kismet a year ago. Finding any tutorials or good documents was pretty hard. That may have changed though, I don't know. The third "Mastering Unreal Technology" book on Amazon has a lot of info on it though. I think the book is released in August though, I forget.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 03:06
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speaking of tutorial, there are some reaaaly good video tutorials here, you have to download them tho but they explain stuff better than any youtube videos. Remember how i was saying i cant figure out how to apply materials to terrains? well thats because the dochebag in the youtube video explained it in some stupid complicated way so he can make himself look smart, Also he was constantly screwing up like saying to click that button while he clicks something else its actually really easy fron this dude check em out 3d buzz video tutorials. these make everything so much easier http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/VideoTutorials.html

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 06:48
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Yup! I've watched all of those. They are excellent indeed =]

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 07:49
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question how do you get into the actual Uscript thing? like if i want to script the way camera behaves? kindel is pretty limited at "under the hood" stuff its good for mostly ingame stuff. i am looking to modify the engine, change the way player behaves etc.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 17:49
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Unsure. You'd have to look it up. I never got into it. The most I did was some really crazy Kismet stuff.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 19:01
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As far as i know the whole uscript thing is just the UDK sorse code which is like C++ What i am trying to do now is make a good 3rd person camera, Kismet did the trick, the camera follows the player but it dosent pan on y axis, so if i look upward with a mose, the robot guy also looks up (and down) but the camera dosent. you somehow have to attach the camera to something more specific than just the player, like the players head or upper body. also i need to figure out how to do the point camera to player position. Any places where i can get some good kismet code examples?
i have the feeling that for the stuff i need to do i will have to modify the sourse code

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Metal Devil123
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Posted: 14th Jul 2010 19:05
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Quote: "Kismet"

And Kismet is also some damn good chocolate!

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 00:11
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I have this DVD, it's really good: http://eat3d.com/kismet

You could try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI4ynbokaoc

As far as UScript examples for it goes, good luck! Google is your best friend.

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PAGAN_old
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Well i guess Uscript is the c++ sourse code. the only thing is i cant read it very well since i never really moved on from basic, and i cant really find where stuff is located in the sourse code, like if i want camera controls, i found 7 possible places where it could be but i cant really make anythig out of it. Maybe the code is just poorly commented. (when i code in dbp i usially comment what every line does) Also that video was the one i used for my third person camera but i still need to figure out the y axis. thats why i need to figure out where the camera sourse code is.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 02:33
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Quote: "Well i guess Uscript is the c++ sourse code."


I'm not sure what you mean by that, but the two languages are very different apart from how they appear syntax-wise.
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david w
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 05:10
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I don't want to try to influence you away from UDK or DBP, but I released a game code library awhile back. Direct X 11,10,9, Nvidia PhysX, Xaudio2, Basic windows commands. The catch is its for C++, however it is very simple to use. I have help and tutorials included. This may be an option for you.

here is a link to some info if your interested.
http://gallery.jegas.com/main.php?g2_itemId=2048
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PAGAN_old
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well,i started looking into the code and it turns out that most of this stuff (that was so easy in dark basic) is just way too advanced for me. Whats in dark basic "position camera 1,x,y,z | Pint camera 1 player position xyz, these 2 lines of code i wold do in dark basic to accomplish this, i need to do god knows what in the unreal engine to get this kind of thing done. They need to give more kismet control over cameras in the UDK, and some other engine stuff as well. this really crushes my hopes and dreams here, i look at the unreal scrips and realize its way too advanced for me, you need to be a hardcore programmer to understand the stuff.

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 11:10 Edited at: 15th Jul 2010 11:30
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Like I said in one of the other similar posts, UDK is not ideal for a soloist, it's a professional engine, not the hobbyist platform that some people make it out to be.
I think you'd be better off sticking with DBPro, or forming a little team, someone with C++ experience who can grasp the code stuff better, an artist, and you doing design.

At least with DBPro, everything is right there, your not tredging through libraries and tons of code looking for stuff. Have you considered reeling your expectations back a little?, maybe make an RPG for lesser platforms, like Netbooks - projects to which DBPro is very well suited. I'm itching to make an RPG for the iPhone, really old school, based on my favorite game - this was confirmed when I was looking for stuff about it, and found a forum thread about a possible remake, still people remember it and miss it after 20 years. Picture your market, and what devices do they have, what devices might they want to use. I think that these days, there's a strong RPG market with older gamers, like 30's - 40's, who played games like Captive and Dungeon Master, and would rather play those games than slash fruit. I mean, your not gonna make your own Oblivion, no matter how much time you have. I'm assuming that you want to earn money with it, and because of that I think you'd be crazy to move away from DBPro, your comfortable and productive in that - try making some money with that first before considering other platforms and engines. One thing is for sure, you should never tackle more complex engines like UDK without a solid game design.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 14:14 Edited at: 15th Jul 2010 15:46
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What attracted me about UDK is it already has toms of stuff made that i will have hard time making in dbp, and i really like UDKs tools and kismet. I dont nead to do much scripting, i just need to tweak the engine a little as soon as i just figure out how to get that done, i can start making a game thats not oblivion. (yes my initioal goal was like a low poly oblivion like game) but i reverted it to a smaller simpler linear RPG adventure type game


this tutorial is nice for anyone who wants to check it outhttp://www.theballthegame.com/tutorialudk.htm

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Asteric
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 17:51
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PAGAN, on the 3dbuzz forum they have a web stream for their video tutorials, so you dont need to download them.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 21:38
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Pagan, you mean stuff made like buildings and stuff? Or do you mean game mechanics?

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 15th Jul 2010 22:01 Edited at: 16th Jul 2010 04:26
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game mechanics is something i am a little challenged by in dbp a lot of that is already done in UDK, Content is easy since stuff i make is low poly, and i really enjoy making content, its the most fun part about making a game. and in terms of profit, i am not even thinking about money lol, If i ever make something worth releasing, its proboly gonna be freeware (unreal is cool if you release their stuff as freeware right? they wont sue me right?)

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Jul 2010 07:23
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Well, to be blunt, it's something you need to learn. DBP makes things insanely easy, and if this as much a hobby/goal/dream as you say it is, you need to buckle down. There's no way around it. There are no handouts when it comes to making games. However, part of the reason there isn't is because it's difficult, and I can tell you from first hand experience that when you overcome a difficult obstacle and figure something out, it's one of the most rewarding feelings you'll ever have. It's almost like an adrenaline rush! It's really rewarding, but it wouldn't be if it was easy.

Having said that, you have one of the best online game dev communities at your disposal here. If you have questions search first, then ask.

You may just be having a problem getting started. Like, you have a lot of directions bouncing all over your mind and you don't know where to start. Make a classic arcade game. Pong in an excellent first. Frogger is another easy one. You may think it's too easy, or too simple. Wrong! Listen, a good majority of the veteran game devs out there now were around when these games first came out. They pioneered the industry. They learned from these games and grew from them. Walk in their shoes! See what they saw!

And actually, I think I'm going to be taking my own advice here starting tomorrow. Thanks for the idea

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 16th Jul 2010 07:45
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Quote: "it's one of the most rewarding feelings you'll ever have. It's almost like an adrenaline rush! It's really rewarding, but it wouldn't be if it was easy."


i know what you mean man.

maybe i should make a frogger game or something.

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david w
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Posted: 16th Jul 2010 19:52
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Actually thats a good idea. Maybe you should do a slight remake, like a top down 3D frogger. (or a slight angle on the camera) Being that DBP is geared for 3D it wont be much harder than a 2D version. Good luck.
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gamerboots
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Posted: 16th Jul 2010 23:31
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frogger is a neat game to do for a first one heck I might even get around to doing a little remake of that one sometime.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 18th Jul 2010 23:40
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i wish DBP had an engine like unreal, with all the editing tools and stuff, like the whole unreal engine but with DBP instead of unreal script

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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heyufool1
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Posted: 19th Jul 2010 01:42 Edited at: 19th Jul 2010 01:45
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If I were you this is what I would do:

Use UDK for:
-Shooters (UDK out of the box is designed for shooters, making it very easy to get started)

Use Unity for (I know this thread isn't about Unity):
-Everything else (Unity out of the box is designed for anything making it easier to go any direction then going to RPG using UDK)

No offense to DBP/TGC or anything but in the end Unity and UDK are both better than DBP in my opinion. The biggest reason for this (in my opinion of course) is that DBP doesn't have a built in level editor.

"So hold your head up high and know, it's not the end of the road"
Up-coming RPG!
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Jul 2010 08:19
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i wish dbp at least had a level editor, The whole object number thing is really limiting and it makes things a lot more confusing. I started looking into ledwerks engine, and the programming there seems pretty easy considering one of the languages it supports is visual basic which i am familiar with since i learned it in school. Unfourtunatley since i live in russia, i cant buy it because the debit card system here is in russian currency and i am not sure if that would transfer to dollars or what. Also stuff i read on Leadwerks says it can be used with pretty much any programming language, just wondering if that includes dark basic. Also isnt Unity3D like 5000 bucks?

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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heyufool1
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Posted: 19th Jul 2010 18:11
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Unity3D indie is free, the pro version is $1,500. Can't say anything for Leadwerks because I never used it.

"So hold your head up high and know, it's not the end of the road"
Up-coming RPG!
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gamerboots
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Posted: 19th Jul 2010 21:25
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or maybe you should try fps ?? its really easy to put togather levels and such in a relatively short time. and it has plenty of scrips. not really designed for rpg but you can recompile the engine itself and mod it to your hearts content. The catch -> you need dbp ,a couple enhancement packs and some programming skills to do this. but I believe I read somewhere that there was an rpg mod available for it so you might not have to do anything except download a few files.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Jul 2010 22:32 Edited at: 19th Jul 2010 23:00
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i looked at unity 3d, the only thing you can download is just a 30 day trial version.

but i picked up something interesting latley, Gamestudio A7
http://www.conitec.net/english/gstudio/3dgs7.php

not sure if its better than dbp in terms or power or features, but it uses a language called lite C I am learning it now, its kinda easy actually, italmost as easy as dark basic with the C syntax. I figured if ill learn this, it will be easier for me to learn more advanced languages in the future. This engine isnt as cool as UDK but it already has a few editors inside it. a script editor, a model editor, a level editor, a matearial editor, (it also says somewhere that it has a terrain editor, but i havent seen it, maybe its only in the pro version which you have to pay for) also has some decent 3rd party support and grat compatibility with milkshape models which is my favorite modeler so far. Oh also unlike DB apperently this engine has no 8 dynamic light limit, it says you can put unlimited amount of lights. also they dont use the whole object number system, they use entity names i like that

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Jul 2010 22:37
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Quote: "or maybe you should try fps ??"


No, he wants a more powerful engine than DBP, not an engine made in DBP and therefore less powerful...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=171328&b=2&p=0#m2034524
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Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 20th Jul 2010 23:29
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No, he wants an engine with a built in editor - GamestudioA7 is not more powerful than DBPro.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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