Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Why a career in computer programming sucks.

Author
Message
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 00:25
I found this article today. It's quite bitter and obviously straight from the heart, but some of it certainly rings true with me. What do you guys think? Any vets in the software development industry agree with this guy, or anyone think it's a load of bull?

http://www.halfsigma.com/2007/03/why_a_career_in.html

Insert piccy sig here. Eh? Why didn't that work?!?! Must ring help-a-noob. What was the number again? .... where am I?
Aaagreen
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Sep 2007
Location: City 17
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 00:39 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 00:40
It's supposed to suck, it's a job. The point is, if you can do it, and it gets cash, then you do it. If you actually enjoy doing it then that's a bonus.


I'd love to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my bum.
Zotoaster
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 00:41
You could say all the exact same things about just about any profession. The better you are at it, the better your career will be. It's pretty simple.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 00:47
Hmmmm.

@Aaagreen - I think people should aspire to do things they enjoy. If you settle for something for your whole live, just because it pays the bills, then in my opinion, you are the definition of a loser. (That's not directed at you btw - that's a general 'you').

@Zotoaster - I agree, if you're a good coder, you will be more successful in your job. I think if you're the sort of person who always wants to learn new technologies and you keep that passion then it's probably the right career for you. However, I agree with the pay and outsourcing points. I've noticed it very hard to get paid well, no matter how much experience you've got (compared to the difficulty of the more senior jobs), and I have noticed a lot of outsourcing. But despite that, there are still a lot of programming jobs in the UK. Squillions!

Insert piccy sig here. Eh? Why didn't that work?!?! Must ring help-a-noob. What was the number again? .... where am I?
Aaagreen
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Sep 2007
Location: City 17
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 00:52
Well I'm hardly striving for a life at Burger King, because I enjoy game design.

I doubt that the conditions of a coder would be as bad as ths guy makes out if you worked for a game development or other IT-specific company.


I'd love to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my bum.
MSon
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Jul 2004
Location: Earth, (I Think).
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 01:00
all you people complaining about conditions in the industry, if you enjoy programming then i dont see the point of complaining, theres plenty of people who would work in the industry for free, (including me if i could afford to)

lazerus
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2008
Location:
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 02:12 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 02:13
Quote: "all you people complaining about conditions in the industry, if you enjoy programming then i dont see the point of complaining, theres plenty of people who would work in the industry for free, (including me if i could afford to)
"

Dont keep up much do you?

To my exagerated point, the poor african child who made your shoes probably works less hours a week than a developer in games design. Ive heard the worst of the worst and the average anit even that good ethier.

Lemonade
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Dec 2008
Location:
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 04:57 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 04:58
Quote: "all you people complaining about conditions in the industry, if you enjoy programming then i dont see the point of complaining, theres plenty of people who would work in the industry for free, (including me if i could afford to)"


How much would you like being rushed to complete a project that you have NO control over by working 12 hours a day 7 days a week?

There's a difference between coding whatever you want whenever you want at home and being forced to code a game you don't even like (over the weekend).

Of course, that's the worst case scenario (Rockstar Games).

Mugen Wizardry
User Banned
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 04:58
i agree.

CHECK OUT SOME MUSIC FROM MY NEW TECHNO CD! TECHNOKINESIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a8KedfgVv0
ALSO, CHECK OUT MY NEW TECHNO CD! http://www.imageposeidon.com/
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 15:09 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 15:15
This completely ignores the possibility of working either for yourself, or a much smaller outfit (as opposed to a giant cubicle farm)

EDIT: Actually I get the impression this guy has no idea what's he's talking about. Yes, he's correct that some 'dirty' jobs really do suck, but he talks about programming as if it's all the same. He also interchanges the concept of IT which is completely different, esp. in a corporate setting

Quote: "Because of the temporary nature of the knowledge capital, computer programmers quickly reach a stage in their career when their old knowledge capital becomes worthless at the same rate as they acquire knew knowledge capital. Their total knowledge capital is no longer increasing, so neither does their salary increase. They have reached the dead end plateau of their career, and it happens after less than ten years in the field."


^ That's why I reckon CS courses teach you tons of languages. Not because they're useful, but to get you in the habit of learning them. You have to be prepared to keep yourself up to date. You can't just sit back and expect knowledge of one technology to coast you through you entire career

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
KeithC
Senior Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 15:28
Quote: "@Aaagreen - I think people should aspire to do things they enjoy. If you settle for something for your whole live, just because it pays the bills, then in my opinion, you are the definition of a loser. (That's not directed at you btw - that's a general 'you')."

Apparently you don't have a family to feed. I doubt my wife and kids look at me as a "loser".

-Keith

David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 15:35 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 15:38
Quote: "Apparently you don't have a family to feed. I doubt my wife and kids look at me as a "loser"."


I think the implication is settling for something you actually hate as opposed to something you don't enjoy in general (after all, every job has its stresses and annoyances no matter how fantastic it was at the start)

And if it's the hate version (where you actually despise your own job) I agree with the loser thing. My own father recently went through this in fact - working a job he began to despise, to the point where the stress was making him ill. It wasn't financially fantastic - but he quit. And fair play to him. Even though that makes life slightly harder in the short term, his health (and productiveness on a job) is worth a lot.

Because let's face it - if you really hate the work you're doing, you're not likely to do a great job either. Even though moving onto something else may create difficulties until you find a new job, if you can find something you can tolerate you can potentially bring in more money and climb the greasy pole more easily (because you'll perform better on the job if you don't hate every waking hour)

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
KeithC
Senior Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 15:55
Quote: "I think the implication is settling for something you actually hate as opposed to something you don't enjoy in general (after all, every job has its stresses and annoyances no matter how fantastic it was at the start)"

Yep; just picking on Fallout a bit.

-Keith

Ocho Geek
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Aug 2007
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 17:03 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 17:03
Quote: "I think people should aspire to do things they enjoy. If you settle for something for your whole live, just because it pays the bills, then in my opinion, you are the definition of a loser"


uh, my dad worked at a university teaching maths (it think it was maths) and he quit that job to work in a factory because It paid better. There are times where money comes before an enjoyable job (like raising 4 kids ) and that is why you sir, are the loser

Ocho Geek - Pretending to be a useful contribution to the forums since 2005
BMacZero
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2005
Location: E:/ NA / USA
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 17:43
Completely disagree. David R hit it right on the money, I think - maybe the IT department in a big corporation sucks, but that is the least of the jobs you can get in computers.

The other thing the author keeps doing is comparing a job in computer programming to a job in law. "Computer programming doesn't have the same prestige as law", "computer programmers don't get as many resources as lawyers", etc, etc, etc. First off, I think it's silly to choose a career based on "prestige" - do you really give a darn about people like the author who are going to judge you for having a "low-prestige" job like programming? If it pays well and you like it, you're going to do just fine and have plenty of people who care about you. And secondly, law? Law is pretty much the highest-paying, most established industry in existence. If computer programming sucks because it isn't as "prestigious" as law or accounting, darn near every other profession must suck also.

Of course, I'm going to college for Computer Science, so I could be in denial .


Latest progress: Fog of War implemented; frustrated by pathfinding >.>
Fatal Berserker
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Jul 2010
Location:
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 19:13 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 19:15
Theres no other subject other than computer programming you can talk straight to someone with no knowledge for hours and they wont start to understand what you are saying.
Except other verbal languages.

*Your mums so fat she causes a stack overflow*

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.
BMacZero
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2005
Location: E:/ NA / USA
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 20:41
Quote: "Theres no other subject other than computer programming you can talk straight to someone with no knowledge for hours and they wont start to understand what you are saying."

Bridge.

Have you ever read a Bridge strategy article in the newspaper?


Latest progress: Fog of War implemented; frustrated by pathfinding >.>
ionstream
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2004
Location: Overweb
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 22:08
The author of that article might as well be bashing a career in the medical industry. I'm gonna guess that a 50 year old spinal surgeon is better than a 27 year old spinal surgeon, despite the fact that what the 50 year old learned in med school is way out of date. Learning a programming language, no matter how old or unused, is never useless. At the very least it teaches you how to think in a slightly different way about programming, and what you learn can be expanded to every other language you use. Good programmers adapt.

AndrewT
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Feb 2007
Location: MI, USA
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 22:56
Quote: "Theres no other subject other than computer programming you can talk straight to someone with no knowledge for hours and they wont start to understand what you are saying."


Um, theoretical physics? Quantum mechanics? Most advanced fields in physics? Differential equations? Topology? Abstract algebra? Most advanced fields in math? Most advanced fields in just about anything?

i like orange
spooky
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 15th Sep 2010 23:33
A lot of that article is so true in my situation. I started work at 18 and am now 41, so that's over 20 years of work related computer programming. I admit I'm now stuck in a rut in that I am now at the age where I really can't be bothered to learn anything new, plus you definetly get to an age where your brain can't soak up new languages at the drop of a hat. Many years ago I learnt Visual Basic, PHP, Perl, etc in no time at all, but for some reason I just can't now. I'm just trundling along with Coldfusion now.

Also all this new fangled social network stuff like twitter, facebook, and the like, is just alien to me, which is a shame as a lot of my work clients wants all that sort of stuff integrated into their websites that I develop.

The up side is that having a good knowledge of programming gets you a long way as bosses like the all round experience, plus when you ask a a youngster to try and update a really complicated ecommerce site for instance they fail miserabley, where I'm great at understanding how things work even if I've never seen the coding of a site before.

All hail the oldies!

Boo!
Green Gandalf
VIP Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jan 2005
Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 16th Sep 2010 13:01
David R

Quote: "That's why I reckon CS courses teach you tons of languages. Not because they're useful, but to get you in the habit of learning them. You have to be prepared to keep yourself up to date. You can't just sit back and expect knowledge of one technology to coast you through you entire career"


Agreed 100%.

Also, the basic logic of coding just hasn't changed much. For example, when I was first introduced to programming (1967 ) it took me a while to get used to the fact that a simple line of code such as



wasn't merely mathematical nonsense. That was FORTRAN - a couple of years later I was taught ALGOL which used the subtly different but actually clearer



which helped reinforce the notion of assignment as distinct from a test of equality. Once you get past such initial hurdles it's just a matter of learning the new syntax and extra features that come along.

Quote: "All hail the oldies!"


Yes please - and also youngsters like you.
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 16th Sep 2010 14:32
It all depends on the size of the company. If you take a job at a big corporation, with 20 other programmers, then don't be surprised if you have to claw your way up the career ladder, that's if there is a ladder in the first place. As soon as your grouped with the other programmers, you become a commodity, and a commodity that can be replaced with a cheaper option. Programmers can't expect to be treated any differently, until they provide more - its up to them to distinguish themselves. Fact is that a lot, and by that I mean most, have very poor interpersonal skills, and that's vital for getting up any ladder. Really, for a programmer to shine, they have to be prepared to fight through meetings and come out on top, they might have to sacrifice a weekend to proove a point. They might have to go above peoples heads and implant ideas. Most programmers that are in a rut, walked right into that rut themseleves. I think that you have 2 years at most to set yourself aside, get yourself into a position you can fight from. The whole problem is that in a big company, that's very difficult to do, in a small company that's very easy to do, as long as the director has basic IT knowledge.

The #1 selling point of any IT task is saving, if it saves money, or saves time, then it's easy to justify - to the point where anyone against the idea will look petty, especially if you prepare well for the usual mindless concerns that non-IT people have about IT.

For instance, when I started at my current job, the IT manager would have me doing all sorts of monotonous tasks, like checking MS Access reports and filling in spreadsheets manually. So the first thing I did was automate that stuff, I took over database development, and turned my job from 8 hours of chores, to 8 seconds of running a macro. Then I set upon the rediculous systems and replaced them with user friendly databases.

10 years later, and the IT manager is gone, I'm getting put through my MCSE, earn 3 times what I started with, and am a key member of staff that could not be replaced by off-shoring, couldn't even be replaced by someone higher qualified than me. I actually like my job mostly, I get to deal with lots of different people, and usually end up making their job easier for them. One of the directors told me once that without me and my systems, he thinks he'd need 25% more people at least. I'm a one man IT department in a very IT centric company (Semiconductors, nano-electronics) - but to be honest I wouldn't want it any other way - I couldn't work in a cubicle, and pity (or even doubt!) any programmer that does. Don't be a code monkey, code monkey is a miserable thing to be.

That's the way I see it at least - if you start with a big company with a team of programmers, it's much more difficult to set yourself aside as a key member of staff - and off-shoring is a huge threat to these roles anyway. If you want to use your skills to benefit people, and have good job security, then look at smaller companies with smaller IT budgets. A smaller IT budget means you have the chance to proove yourself, and justify a good salary before too long.

As I said though, before I started rambling, is that you have to be able to handle meetings efficiently, public speaking cannot be a factor, and with practice it really isn't. It's different when it's work related, IT people need to stand up and open their mouths for a change - if they can't do that, then they should just go back to their cubicles and wait on their replacements.

The games industry has cubicles too, games are just as much an industry as anything - don't think for 1 seconds that the games industry is this glowing oppurtunity for creative people. In fact I'd say the same rules apply - maybe working in a smaller game company, making mobile games or flash games or whatever - but working in a smaller company makes each individual 'bigger'.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
marlou
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Jan 2009
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2010 04:04
Quote: "Also all this new fangled social network stuff like twitter, facebook, and the like, is just alien to me, which is a shame as a lot of my work clients wants all that sort of stuff integrated into their websites that I develop."


Facebook has an entire language dedicated to it FBML, FSQL and FJS. It would be classified other temporarily useful knowledge. Learning this kind of knowledge can be a hassle for older people. On the other hand, Twitter is easier since you can use an old and common language PHP. But you can also use PHP for Facebook.

I think you should focus more in transferrable skills during your IT career. For example; leadership skills, information management skills, people skills, creativity and innovation skills and the like. I have 1 month work experience in IT industry and its my first job. Im still fond of learning a lot of things. But i decided to also learn other skills like sales 1.0,2.0,3.0, business and psychology with the little time i can spare. Thank God Im still young and learning isnt burdensome. In fact, Im increasing my knowledge base at a fast rate for the recent months. And I can get a masters in physics and get a teaching job when i get older and just teach repeatitive physics and do research at my own pace.

When a person has nothing but a dream, can he dare to dream.
PAGAN_old
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jan 2006
Location: Capital of the Evil Empire
Posted: 17th Sep 2010 10:48
About the whole thing of choosing a career which you enjoy and doing stuff that you like. Well i used to love computers, building them, fixing them it was quite fun and rewarding. Then i got a job at it and its not as fun. I got bored with it pretty quickly. but at least i was good at it. I found that i did like fixing and modding my own computers. but doing stuff to other peoples computers isnt fun especially since everyone wants to be as cheap as they can and thats not fun. I still didnt have a single customer who was willing to spend a load of cash on a kickass rig for me to build for them. Now that would be fun

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
nitrohaze
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Apr 2003
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2010 15:47
wise old programmer say "Be careful turning your hobby into a job."
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 17th Sep 2010 16:25
Quote: "Apparently you don't have a family to feed. I doubt my wife and kids look at me as a "loser"."


Loserdomness is in the eye of the beholder!

I think it's a respectable thing to provide for one's family, but my girlfriend and I are holding off on kids until we're happy with our work and home lives. We don't want to sacrifice our dreams. We'll have kids when everything is in place. I guess that's just how I feel on the subject.

Insert piccy sig here. Eh? Why didn't that work?!?! Must ring help-a-noob. What was the number again? .... where am I?
Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 00:17
Not everyone has a choice about where they work, especially right now. You work wherever you can now and hope that some day you'll be able to find the job you actually want. If you can afford to do nothing in hopes of waiting out until the perfect job comes along, then you most likely are a teenager or you still live in mommy's basement.

Quote: "We'll have kids when everything is in place."

Not everyone has that choice, accidents happen.

In my experience, the quality of an IT job varies greatly between companies. My old job description, answer phones and provide support. That fits my position at CallTech (Teleperformance) and a Bank. Believe me, they are in no way equal! CallTech is the worst of the worst, and I actually didn't mind my job at the bank. But when I left to work as a JSP developer, things went downhill again. It wasn't so much the company or even the fact my room had no windows, but the people I had to work with; specifically the project manager. The PM is what made my job suck so badly. If it wasn't for the PM I'm sure I would've liked working there longer.

Oh, and the difference between a job and career is you like your career, otherwise it's just a job


VanB, got any job openings? I've been wanting to be a programming since highschool and have managed to do it for a short time at least. But over the years I've been considering getting more involved with the infrastructure side. It just looks less stagnant to me, and yea I hate cubicles.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ~ Arthur C. Clarke
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 00:43
Quote: "Not everyone has that choice, accidents happen."


99% of those accidents are because of stupidity. If you carefully dot your i's and cross your t's when you have a significant other, your odds of having an accident drop to almost 0. At least that's what I tell myself

----------------------------

Lately I've been thinking about applying to join the RCMP and become a mountie. It's completely different than what I'm doing now, and the pay is just as good or better.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Green Gandalf
VIP Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jan 2005
Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 01:07
Quote: "If you carefully dot your i's and cross your t's when you have a significant other, your odds of having an accident drop to almost 0."


That's a big "if".

Sounds like a recipe for an incredibly boring relationship to me. What happened to fun and spontaneity?

Quote: "At least that's what I tell myself"


Do you listen?
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 01:08
Quote: "Sounds like a recipe for an incredibly boring relationship to me. What happened to fun and spontaneity?"


I am prepared for spontaneity. I have backups of all my... erm... data


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
KeithC
Senior Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 06:35
Quote: "I am prepared for spontaneity. I have backups of all my... erm... data"

Wait.......are we still talking about programming?

-Keith

marlou
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Jan 2009
Location:
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 11:30
Quote: "Wait.......are we still talking about programming?
"


I think in his back-up data there are a lot that sucks...erhmm..

I think its important to keep back ups for important skills and transferable skills.

When a person has nothing but a dream, can he dare to dream.
Ocho Geek
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Aug 2007
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 14:37
Quote: "accidents happen."

Nice to know your place in life

Ocho Geek - Pretending to be a useful contribution to the forums since 2005
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 18:58 Edited at: 18th Sep 2010 19:00
Quote: "wise old programmer say "Be careful turning your hobby into a job." "

Yoda say "job, hobby makes, hobby, job makes not."

I did some more, see if you can guess what they're talking about (all programming related).

Yoda say "forget from where you come, soon lost you are."
Yoda say "do same twice, half you do."
Yoda say "actions let thought guide, guide thought actions will not"
Yoda say "many disciplines a powerful Jedi masters."
Yoda say "an apple pie from scratch to make, first create the universe you must. "

Daniel wright 2311
User Banned
Posted: 18th Sep 2010 19:45
It really can suck at times im shure, your back hurts from sitting there All the time,Your eyes start to go,your fingers start to cramp up every day, but you would not be a programmer at all if you did not love it.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-05-23 11:52:17
Your offset time is: 2025-05-23 11:52:17