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Dark Physics & Dark A.I. & Dark Dynamix / Community vote for Dark Physics update

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Clonkex
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Posted: 18th Oct 2010 04:57 Edited at: 18th Oct 2010 05:01
Hey guys,

I want to start a vote. Basically this is it:

- I (we?) would like Lee to drop whatever he's doing and FIX DARK PHYSICS!
- He should spend a few days (or more preferably) working purely on Dark Physics; some of us actually use it, and we would like it to work properly
- He should make the Vehicle Wrapper work - it should be simple to use, just set the front and back wheels and Dark Physics works out which way it's going. Also, it wouldn't be that bad having to simply make sure the vehicle is facing on +Z
- The model should not have to be rigged
- The wheel limbs should move with the physics wheel (up and down)

That's it, really. If you'd like him to do these things, vote "aye" (or yes, it doesn't really matter ). We'll just see what happens (the mods may not like this).

EDIT: I have already (ages ago) downloaded the latest DP update (1.5 I think), so don't just tell me to do that.

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
CocaCola
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Posted: 18th Oct 2010 05:11 Edited at: 18th Oct 2010 05:12

better yet, if you want to say aye, yes, or eye use this tinypic link with the IMG things around it


I, for one, use dark physics ALOT and very much enjoy it, though am stuck on something in which NOBODY is replying to, I really wish dark physics had more users anyway I wish for lee to work on this too, and if you have time Clonkex PLEASE look at this thread for me: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=176792&b=30

I want coke, not Pepsi!
LBFN
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Posted: 18th Oct 2010 19:11
While I don't know all of the specific details, I think a decision was made long ago that Dark Physics would take too much to make it right, and it was set aside to work on other TGC products.

Since it uses PhysX, the user has to have an Nvidia card, otherwise, it (supposedly) works in software mode, which is way too slow for games, especially on older computers. The only way to get around this is to use a different engine, requiring a total rewrite, which is not gonna happen. This means that games produced with Dark Physics have a limited number of computers that they can be played on.

If they fix the vehicle issues, the character controller issues, etc., etc., they still have the PhysX problem.

My understanding is that some have requested and obtained a partial refund from TGC for the shortcomings of Dark Physics.

I wish you well, Clonkex, but I don't see this being fruitful.

I'm not really a programmer.....I only play one on TGC.
HowDo
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Posted: 19th Oct 2010 12:13
I am sure if someone had a very big suitcase full of cash and were to say 'here you are fix it' then it might get done.

failing that you will have to learn to work around it short comings, When you think about it only a few jumped in to try it, so there's very little help, if those who have it have not tried doing what you want then you are going to have to be the one that works out how to do it.(then you become the expert on it ).

true it would have been nice if a few more user had brought it and help in the testing/update that happpend back then...

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
Matty H
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Posted: 19th Oct 2010 17:09
Quote: "Since it uses PhysX, the user has to have an Nvidia card, otherwise, it (supposedly) works in software mode, which is way too slow for games, especially on older computers. The only way to get around this is to use a different engine, requiring a total rewrite, which is not gonna happen. This means that games produced with Dark Physics have a limited number of computers that they can be played on."


I use PhysX in software mode and its still really fast, hardware mode is only needed(recommended) when using really cpu intensive features(cloth, fluid etc..).

Also, the latest version of PhysX(2.8.4) no longer requires the system software, you can now ship the required dll's with your game and it works on any PC, this was one of the biggest issues I had with PhysX but is now not an issue.

I may be wrong but I'm not sure that the author of Dark Physics works at TGC, it would take alot of work for someone who is not the author to start fixing bugs, depending on how its documented, commented etc.

Alot of people say they do fine using Sparkys for collision and Dark Physics for physics, its not ideal but may work for you.

Coldfire
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Posted: 19th Oct 2010 23:31
I wouldn't mine if it got fixed, but I have my doubts. Its just a shame cause the reasons I bought Dark Physics... well, aren't there .

*cough*ragdolls*cough*
hackinc 2000
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Posted: 20th Oct 2010 01:36 Edited at: 20th Oct 2010 01:37
Its funny, if you go back in time to the (NVIDIA Compo 2008) I remember leaving one of my entries (here) because PhysX don't have the features I spec and Its was too buggy back then!

I remember Lee comment
Quote: "Sorry to see this demo abandonned, it looked very cool, colourful, fun, uses cloth and possibly fluid use. Ah well. When you get time, post here what you needed in terms of commands and functionality to make your ideas come alive. We want DarkPHYSICS to provide you with the easiest way to turn your ideas for physics simulation into reality."


After Ending whit the Second Place In the Uber Category! I lost Interest in PhysX and move one whit other things! Just to take PhysX back when an Update Came Out! I'm still waiting But I'm not losing my Faith!!!

Clonkex
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Posted: 20th Oct 2010 09:03
TGC should stop selling DP if they aren't going to fix it! I really hate that, I really do.

Clonkex

P.S. LEE, FIX DARK PHYSICS!!!

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
OldPMan
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Posted: 20th Oct 2010 13:27
fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix

PHY GET RAY CAST TV() and PHY GET RAY CAST TU() not work !!!!!!!!!!!!!

fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix

PLEASE this ^

.....already beside..... for all
Clonkex
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 07:58
I'm glad someone agrees with me!

fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix

VEHICLE WRAPPER not work !!!!!!!!!!!!!

fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix

(I copied and pasted )

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2010 13:18
You'll find TGC does that a lot, they sell permanently broken products. If you're lucky you'll get a fix in a few years, but don't count on it. Best just write your own plugins, use opensource plugins (newton) so you can update it yourself, or design a game within the confines of what works.

seppgirty
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2010 19:54
i got to say that i would of loved to have bought the X quad editor but it uses DP and i could n't get it, or the sample games to run on any computer. and i have a nivida GeForce 6100 built in graphics card on my computer. so i stay away from physics x and anything made with it..

it's a shame, but i would just use something else for now and hope that dark physics gets an update in a few years because i doubt it will be done in the near future

gamer, lover, filmmaker
C0wbox
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Posted: 24th Oct 2010 01:03 Edited at: 24th Oct 2010 01:08
Why are TGC working on things like DarkData, DarkVideo, GreenEar and DarkInk when things like DarkPhysics are obviously far more useful.

I mean I think you'd have to be making either Excel, Word, Skype or a DVD player to find these things useful...

I know that these tools are to make DBP more useful for making other applications (like if you were trying to make Skype or Word) but DBP is predominantly a games creation language, so why can't we get a decent physics engine.

Having said that, I have no problem getting vehicles to work in DarkPhysics. - We just manually set them up to do exactly what we want. (Means we can make tanks and tricycles if we so desire.)

Neco
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Posted: 24th Oct 2010 23:56 Edited at: 24th Oct 2010 23:57
FYI, Dark Data is made by an independent programmer, its just sold through the TGC store. They do that with a lot of the plugins.

Pretty well suited for game development too.

leo877
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 02:52 Edited at: 25th Oct 2010 02:53
i give a vote of YES for a dark physic update issues for vechile making, motorcycles, and for rag dolls


Clonkex
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 04:52
@leo877:

I'm someone else agrees with me! I was starting to think maybe no one actually cared to vote at all! Of course, I can't see voting actually doing much seeing as the mods haven't even replied here, let alone someone of consequence!

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
OldPMan
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 11:50 Edited at: 25th Oct 2010 11:51
In fact, personally I have no complaints about the work DarkPhysx except one.
Why turn on and declare a function that was not intended to support - PHY GET RAY CAST TV () and PHY GET RAY CAST TU ().
And everything else I know that DarkPhysx best plugin of its kind in existence. and I have never had any problems with it. Even with cars. Well, motorcycles and other modes of transport you can always do it myself using the Joints.

.....already beside..... for all
Neotron
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 13:29
yo people download newton's physics wrapper instead,its free and stable.
Dark Physics is just another way of making money!!!!

ALLAH IS THE GREATEST
May he forgive me
LBFN
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 16:52
Neotron:

We have already paid the money for Dark Physics. We want to get what we paid for, we don't want to reinvent the wheel and learn a new physics wrapper. It is worth noting that when DP works, it is impressive.

We could have chosen to go with Newton, but we didn't. When I bought DP, Newton had issues itself and people were just as frustrated with it (maybe it still does, I don't know). We saw the DP demos and considered what was expected and it makes for a cool presentation. We trusted/expected TGC to make things right with DP.

The intent of this thread is to make TGC aware that DPs flaws are not acceptable to us, and we want them to fix it once and for all.

I'm not really a programmer.....I only play one on TGC.
Matty H
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 17:15
Quote: "Why turn on and declare a function that was not intended to support - PHY GET RAY CAST TV () and PHY GET RAY CAST TU ()."


@RUSSIA - Could you tell me why you need these functions?
I seen them when making my plugin(Fulcrum) but never bothered with them, I would think about putting them in if I understood its uses.

HowDo
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 21:17
@matty halewood

from what I can make out in the help files, it would return the position on the texture face, where the ray cast hit, so you could put a hole or bullet decal where it landed.(well thats what I think would do.)

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
OldPMan
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 21:24 Edited at: 25th Oct 2010 21:26
EDIT: HowDo - you're right
These functions were I need to determine the texture coordinates in place to draw the collision of bullets hitting or scratching.
but since I already solved this problem for me is not so important. though it was, would not be bad if they all earn the same (once they have entered already).
if interested then go look here.

.....already beside..... for all
CocaCola
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 00:27
by the way if you, lee, are reading this, please update DarkGDK too, I too paid for it and deserve the full Dark Physics.

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
C0wbox
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 00:51
Quote: "please update DarkGDK too"

Take off the 60FPS limit too...

(I might actually use DGDK instead of DBP if there wasn't that limit.)
(In my mind DBP>DGDK in terms of power.)

Eminent
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 01:16
DarkGDK is free. Its the license that costs money. I VOTE for a DP update. Plus make faster plox?


CocaCola
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 03:46
lets not worry about making it faster right now, just fixing it, and I use DarkGDK because I plan to be a programmer and BASIC can teach you bad habits, and DarkGDK uses C++ which most companies use.

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
Matty H
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 19:50
Quote: "Take off the 60FPS limit too...

(I might actually use DGDK instead of DBP if there wasn't that limit.)
(In my mind DBP>DGDK in terms of power.)"



This lets the program run as fast as possible.

As for power,
DBPro == GDK more or less, but...
C++ > basic

BillR
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 23:05 Edited at: 27th Oct 2010 12:14
I too think TGC should update/fix/enhance DarkPhysics.

I would like to see better/simpler vehicle making
Motorcycles would be cool also
Improved character controller and ragdoll setup
Add more commands that may have not been implemented yet

TGC, please consider supporting DarkPhysics again/better.
Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 05:48 Edited at: 27th Oct 2010 05:57
@Neotron:
We played for Dark Physics, and we want the item we payed for to work. Properly. It has too many problems to just ignore!

@LBFN:
Quote: "The intent of this thread is to make TGC aware that DPs flaws are not acceptable to us, and we want them to fix it once and for all."


Exactly!

(mum voice) Lee Bamber! I want you to go, right now, and FIX Dark Physics in it's entirety!
(lee voice, hopefully) Yes, mum.

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
HowDo
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 14:55
If they did come back and say 'ok whats wrong can you tell us', what would you all do or say.

If its like when dbpro is being worked on then they would probably like some code of it not doing what it should and explanation on what you think should do and what it is doing.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
CocaCola
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 17:08
Well all the commands that dont work, guys we need to have this hit second page so it turns red and more noticiable.

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
HowDo
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 19:48
Quote: "Well all the commands that dont work"


Which are?

This is how Lee or Mike would respond, so unless we have an greed list of commands that need fixing and the code to show they don't work, were not likely to get anything done.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 11:12 Edited at: 28th Oct 2010 11:15
Well, all the vehicle creation commands need to be completely revised and fixed as in my first post, and the documentation needs to be completely re-written and more helpful.

@Cocacola:

What do you mean update GDK? If you mean the DarkPhysics for GDK then it would get updated when the DBPro version is.

Btw CocaCola I think the thing that makes it go red is when it reaches 50 posts, not the page number, cause you can set the amount of posts to display per page as a personal setting and would be different for different people.

---WARNING---

To all people thinking of copying me with small bugs, don't. The only reason I've started this thread is because DarkPhysics has never worked correctly and has some major bugs. I wouldn't recommend starting a vote for anything else, or they might end up going unnoticed by TGC.

Heed my warning.

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
Eminent
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 00:00
DarkGDK has been updated to the same version as DarkBasic Pro, just so you know.


C0wbox
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 05:08 Edited at: 30th Oct 2010 05:09
Quote: "

This lets the program run as fast as possible."


Quote: "DarkGDK has been updated to the same version as DarkBasic Pro, just so you know."


I must have been using a previous version which was limited.

Oh well. - I'd still have to buy the license to do anything with it (regardless of having the DBP license).

Clonkex
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Posted: 1st Nov 2010 00:29 Edited at: 1st Nov 2010 00:47
You aren't thinking of selling WOR, are you? If you aren't then you needn't worry about a license. I think you can distribute your games as long as they are free. But DBPro might be better for this game then GDK. I have been fiddling around with GDK and you have to know C++ (luckily I have been learning it).

EDIT: look here

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
Chenak
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 03:58
Everyone not happy with the product should ask for a refund. I can tolerate holes and bugs but dark physics lacks a huge amount of features that was promised which I required and we were promised something far superior to newton which in my opinion it didn't even come close.

I asked for a refund stating the features I desired that were advertised when the product was released simply did not exist and were not going to get fixed. I got some credit back which I found fair. If everyone does the same then they might get the picture and fix the product
Broken_Code
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 16:57 Edited at: 18th Nov 2010 17:00
[ Double post ]
Broken_Code
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 16:59
YES!

What I'd like to see in the update:
1. Strafe character controller
2. Jump character controller
3. Crouch character controller
4. POSITION CHARACTER CONTROLLER

These really are needed to make CC's any use at all.
Please update DP.
Thanks,
Broken_Code
CocaCola
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Posted: 19th Nov 2010 01:57
Quote: "POSITION CHARACTER CONTROLLER"


THAANNNKK YOOUU!!!

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
Duke E
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Posted: 19th Nov 2010 07:58
All of the fixes above are pretty moot imo.

For use in any way beyond a simple game or demo, DP is pretty much useless due to the memory leaks. In a game you have to reset your scene sometimes when changing levels and so on. When deleting a physics object the collision mesh is not removed from memory.
I worked around this to some point caching physics objects in zero gravity mode outside camera view. But i decided to skip DP after all as i need more variation in my scenery.

Regards
Duke
OldPMan
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Posted: 19th Nov 2010 10:01 Edited at: 19th Nov 2010 10:36
phy ray cast all shapes
phy ray cast closest shape
phy ray cast
All of these commands does not work correctly.
We are either a very rough result of either the ITS WRONG OR NOT AT ALL AT ALL.

All this is very strange.
On RAY CAST influence even visual overlap of objects that RAY is not even intersect.


EDIT:
All problem in CHARACTER CONTROLLER !!!
Certainly not with him, but with the object of which is connected Character controller.



.....already beside..... for all
JulianMH
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Posted: 21st Nov 2010 19:55 Edited at: 25th Mar 2011 23:03
Bugs or missing features I found before switching to Fulcrum Physics:

- Character Controller can't jump, walk left or right.
- Ragdolls don't work, there's no real documentation for them.
- No real documentation for kinematic objects.

JulianMH
Matty H
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 00:11 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2010 00:16
Quote: "All of the fixes above are pretty moot imo.

For use in any way beyond a simple game or demo, DP is pretty much useless due to the memory leaks. In a game you have to reset your scene sometimes when changing levels and so on. When deleting a physics object the collision mesh is not removed from memory.
I worked around this to some point caching physics objects in zero gravity mode outside camera view. But i decided to skip DP after all as i need more variation in my scenery.

Regards
Duke "


This is a huge issue, my plugin also has this issue, I am in the process of correcting it. Its the way PhysX has to cook the mesh before you use it, the docs are not very clear on how you release a cooked mesh so I can see how Dark Physics got that wrong.
The way it is supposed to be done is to cook, then save the collision mesh to file, then your game does not need to cook the mesh at run time, it just loads the pre-cooked version from the file, quicker and safer.

Duke E
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 21:07
Quote: "The way it is supposed to be done is to cook, then save the collision mesh to file"


Tried that too . But the "Phy Make Rigid Body Dynamic Convex ID,file$" command will not save a mesh file (bug). Only the "Phy Make Rigid Body Static Mesh" commands produces any file whatsoever out of the custom collision shape commands. The mesh files are not interchangeable so you can load that static mesh as a dynamic though .

You should wrap Fulcrum physics for DBPro and sell it. Saw your vehicle demo, very nice.

Regards
Duke
Matty H
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2010 12:55
Quote: ""Phy Make Rigid Body Dynamic Convex ID,file$" command will not save a mesh file (bug). "

I dont have Dark Physics but are you sure you are passing in a valid object, convex meshes can be a little picky, less than 256 polys etc.

Quote: "Only the "Phy Make Rigid Body Static Mesh" commands produces any file whatsoever"

Well thats not too bad then as the triangle meshes are usually the biggest(terrain etc) so I presume there is no memory leak there as it does save them to file and not to memory?

Quote: "You should wrap Fulcrum physics for DBPro and sell it. Saw your vehicle demo, very nice."

I have been looking into it, having done a PhysX plugin I know exactly how much work has gone into Dark Physics and it is alot, if I tried to improve on Dark Physics it would be a huge amount of work.

HowDo
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2010 16:04 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2010 16:06
user edit missread above post.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
Clonkex
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 02:14
Man, I can see now many people have many problems with Dark Physics.

If only Lee would listen...

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.8Ghz, Nvidia GeForce 9400 GT 512mb, 1gb ram.
Chenak
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Posted: 27th Dec 2010 14:27
Again ask for a refund, let your wallets do the talking
SuperSnake
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2011 23:39
Have they fixed the phy delete rigid body and phy clear commands? Because those bugs are driving me crazy!

And what is with it with the ragdolls? I bought DarkPHYSICS mostly for that, and now I found out it dosen't work properly!

We SERIOUSLY need an update, or at least a refund!

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