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Geek Culture / Hard drive failure ?

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gamerboots
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 08:08
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A few questions for everyone.

How many here have actually had a hard drive fail ?

Would you say it happens more or less frequently with raid configerations.

What do you use for backups ?


Thank you for your responses

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TheComet
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 09:45
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Harddrives usually don't fail instantly. You notice that something is not right... Files won't open at the speed they usually would, processes last much longer than usual, some files don't open at all, files can't be deleted etc.

When you notice something is up with your harddrive, replace it as soon as possible.

I use a raid for data security. If one harddrive fails, you just take it out and slam in a new one, and the contents of the other harddrive automatically copy across to the new one.

TheComet

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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 13:03 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2010 13:05
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Quote: "Would you say it happens more or less frequently with raid configerations. "


I find most of my hdd failures occur instantly and after a hard reboot. Makes me every time.

Also, using a RAID as your backup solution is lame. RAID is for maximum uptime. The most cost effective way to protect your files when you don't need 99.9 percent uptime is to have an external harddrive that you copy backups to, rather than an integrated raid in the same system.

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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 14:18
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One of our servers hard drives failed last month, no raid - 7 hours to get it back online, basically had to clone it onto an exact same drive. If it had RAID, then it would have taken no time at all. RAID had to be disabled on it for some reason that I can't remember.

But it's not a backup solution by any means. I would suggest the same as Jerico, get an external drive for backups - they are getting cheaper all the time. I think it's the most direct backup method, and the fastest method to restore from. A Buffalo Terstation is good for backups if money is no object and you have multiple PC's.

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TheComet
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 14:45
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Quote: "Also, using a RAID as your backup solution is lame."


I know it's an overkill, but if one HDD fails, it won't take me like 8 hours to get the whole system back online. It's a real pain to install windows, get updates again, install stupid drivers, get software, get keys for programs I paid for, fixing and optimizing the system, copy files from backup drive, install more software etc...

With a RAID I never lose the current state of the system.

TheComet

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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 14:58
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right, it's an uptime thing. Don't consider it a backup though. It's very possible you'll get virused and all your data on both drives are gone, or both your drives fry in a thunderstore, etc etc.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 19:22
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Quote: "Also, using a RAID as your backup solution is lame"

Don't really see how raid is pointless for backup nor how it is any more likely to get a virus than an external drive which is still connected anyway. I paid a little over $200 for a NAS RAID which I setup mirroring. Considering it came with two 500gb drives I don't think this was an expensive option at all and it sure beats doing manual backups. I also use a UPS to protect from such thunderstorm issues.

I've had two harddrives fail on my personally, but many others have failed at work. I had a WD 8.4GB fail within weeks after buying it. I RMA'd with WD and got a new one, but my data was gone. My other failure was a 320GB Seagate which died after a year or two. Despite every HD tool out there giving SMART errors and informing me that yes this drive is messed up, Seagates tools said nothing was wrong with it and therefore refused to process any sort of RMA. I no longer buy their drives.

RAID drives have more potential to fail I believe because you'd likely have them running more often. But things like WD's Black caviar drives are designed for raids where their other models are not. To answer your question of drive failure frequency, I don't think it really matters on it being RAID or a standalone drive, but the type of drive you use will make the biggest difference I think.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ~ Arthur C. Clarke
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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 20:10 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2010 20:13
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Surely you'd agree that 2 drives in 2 seperate locations are much safer than 2 drives in the same machine.

How I personally do it is I use a server that I store my files one, and use syncing on my win 7 machines to sync the files. That way I have copies on the server and on the client, and they stay synced up. I copy my server files out to dvds every so often, but that could easily be replaced with another external drive. Once backed up, you can store the DVDs offsite for the best protection.

A raid doesn't protect you from theft of your hardware, loss due to electical problems or fire, flood, or corruption (virus).

A raid is great if you want access to your files immediately at all times. You can't have 8 hours of downtime, for example. But if you do a raid, you still need to make *real* backups if you want to keep your files safe. Also, how many of us use a raid could afford to replace a bad disc immediately (within hours, or a day or two) to prevent loss if the other drive fails? If you're like me, you'd have to wait at *least* until your next paycheck Using a raid as a backup is only marginally safer than storing all your files on one drive.

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gamerboots
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2010 22:53
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A most interesting point Jericho. Even if one does have raid they would still have to backup to keep their data safe in the event of virus , theft, or whatever. I personally use external drives for backing up as its pretty handy if I need to go from one pc to another.

Quote: "Harddrives usually don't fail instantly. You notice that something is not right... Files won't open at the speed they usually would, processes last much longer than usual, some files don't open at all, files can't be deleted etc."


Oddly, I have an external drive that occassionally will not let me write to the disk. When this happens , I cant even check it for errors as the drive appears locked. It only happens on one particular pc though (win7 64bit)

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 24th Oct 2010 10:24
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i never really tried raid as i never had a chance to try it, but recently i did have a lot of failed harddrives and once i lost great deal of data. it was very sad. brnd new hdd too. altho recently i didnt have any problems with failed HDDs. idk is it me or does china actually make more durable HDDs because i havent had a single HDD fail in 2 years since i moved to russia. back in US i had 2-3 hdd failures per year.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 03:24
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Quote: "Surely you'd agree that 2 drives in 2 seperate locations are much safer than 2 drives in the same machine."

agreed.

Quote: "i havent had a single HDD fail in 2 years since i moved to russia. back in US i had 2-3 hdd failures per year."

Because in mother Russia, harddrive doesn't fail you, you fail harddrive.

Just curious, what brand were you using?


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ~ Arthur C. Clarke
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 14:21
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well i was a big fan of seagate they failed me a lot less than WDs. but ever since then i started caring less for the brand and just getting WD. and surprisingly WDs never failed me. i think it has something to do with the types of harddrives they send from china and its like unless you are getting something high end like a WD raptor harddrive are pretty generic and all cost pretty much the same (and even look the same) i seriosly dont know but since russia even in my line of work i have not siin a single HDD failure

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Dazzag
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Posted: 25th Oct 2010 15:22
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My really old RAID PC is still going great after many years. It's only RAID 0 though for pure speed, so no advantage for mirroring to safeguard data. Infact is much worse as if only one drive fails then you are completely stuffed for everything. I think the main reason it's been very good though is it was a top quality product at the time. 2 Raptor efforts running at 10k or somesuch. Very pricey at the time, but very good.

I've had a few go over the years, mainly in laptops interestingly. I've had both instant failures and ones that are more obvious (a few weeks of loud whirring and ticking noises, BSODs, reboots etc). Main thing I did, if I hadn't got a recent backup, and Windows repair disks wasn't having any of it, was to boot Ubuntu from CD and then browse to the harddrive to grab all the files I needed. Was a bit of a lifesaver once or twice (for friend's laptops that they didn't backup rather than mine normally).

Personally I copy important files to a NAS and a couple of mobile devices (eg. iPhone, USB stick or two etc) every time I update them. Secondly on my main PC I also have Spysweeper (Webroot) that has an automatic schedule to backup files to the internet. I also make a complete PC archive about once a month, and every couple of months burn off a DVD of important files. A bit overkill but I also work from home now and again and even though everything is over a VPN I also have docs I update only on my home PC.

Out of interest my wife used to work at HP, and their policy with backups was it shouldn't be within something like 30 miles of the actual data. My guess it is to do with a nuclear blast for an extreme case. Put your backup within that and the blast will wipe out (isn't there an electric pulse that will wipe any drive? But also the blast itself may destroy it) both your data and your backup. Where I work the hardware guys said the same sort of thing. So no, a RAID shouldn't be seen as a backup. It only helps if one of the drives nose dives. Useless if the computer is stolen, is caught in a fire etc etc. It's a very good disaster recovery tool is all really, assuming the PC didn't get any external stress that may effect both drives.

Cheers

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Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 06:39
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That 30 mile limit definitely sounds like part of a disaster recovery plan to me. As I was told at work, it's more for the extreme cases where for whatever reason the city becomes inaccessible we're to move to the unmarked warehouse outside of town.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ~ Arthur C. Clarke
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gamerboots
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 07:47
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Quote: "(isn't there an electric pulse that will wipe any drive"

The pulse you refered to is called an EMP. This stands for electo-magnetic pulse. It occurs when nuclear bombs are set off and yes it will damage anything electronic ( hello bycycles and candles! )

Back on topic, luckily , I have never had one fail on me yet but there is always a first time for everything (I just hope its not too soon)

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SH4773R
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Posted: 26th Oct 2010 08:44
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You don't need a nuke. look up emp future weapons on youtube
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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 00:54
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I have a 1TB external portable drive for weekly backups, and I have a subscription with Mozy for online backups. It costs $5 a month for unlimited data, so I have about 70GB uploaded and synchronized. Anytime I leave my computer for about 20 minutes it synchronizes changed files with the Mozy servers in California.

I would assume that a giant magnet would be the best way to erase a hard drive? It's quicker than using a hammer and it can not be undone.


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TheComet
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 01:20
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Quote: "You don't need a nuke. look up emp future weapons on youtube"


Yes, but where else are you going to be able to get that amount of power to create a pulse strong enough to discharge all electronic components within a 5 mile radius?

TheComet

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Indicium
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 01:23
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Quote: "Yes, but where else are you going to be able to get that amount of power to create a pulse strong enough to discharge all electronic components within a 5 mile radius?"


You're fortunate enough not to have been on the receiving end of one of my farts. :/

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bitJericho
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 12:26
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Quote: "You're fortunate enough not to have been on the receiving end of one of my farts. :/"


You should consider changing your diet if everytime you fart you have to buy all new electrical equipment.

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Melancholic
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 14:07
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Quote: "I would assume that a giant magnet would be the best way to erase a hard drive? It's quicker than using a hammer and it can not be undone."


You make it sound like taking a hammer to a hard drive can be undone


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gamerboots
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 17:55
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Quote: "I would assume that a giant magnet would be the best way to erase a hard drive? It's quicker than using a hammer and it can not be undone"


I'm wondering about this. I think data can still be recovered even with the use of a hammer but pretty sure the actual disk would have to be intact. Then again, its possible to repair cd's so why not hd's ?
As far as using a giant magnet , I would like to hear some further comments on this as I thought most drives were insultated against this nowdays. Also, on that online backup thing, what garentees do they place on security ?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 19:26 Edited at: 30th Oct 2010 19:27
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from what i've been told, hitting the plate with a hammer causes all the sectors on the drive to corrupt. Don't know if this is true, never really looked into it. When I dump a drive, I figure nobody would bother to attempt recovery of a drive completely torn apart and with bent and severely scratched platters. For business purposes, I'd recommend checking whitepapers on the subject

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Jeku
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Posted: 31st Oct 2010 20:04
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Quote: "You make it sound like taking a hammer to a hard drive can be undone"


I'm certain that a drive snapped in half can still have a chance of being recovered by various government agencies.


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Eminent
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Posted: 31st Oct 2010 20:07
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^ Don't watch CSI anymore


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lazerus
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Posted: 31st Oct 2010 20:20
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Quote: "I'm certain that a drive snapped in half can still have a chance of being recovered by various government agencies.

"


If they have the parts then its a case of digital/physical jigsaw.

They can compile the segments of data from each part then put it back together. At least theorectically.


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Indicium
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Posted: 1st Nov 2010 00:31
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Quote: "its possible to repair cd's so why not hd's ?"


I looked this up a while ago, only the plastic coating of the cd is damaged, not the actual data.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Nov 2010 00:35 Edited at: 1st Nov 2010 01:10
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um... oops... ignore this post

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gamerboots
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Posted: 1st Nov 2010 06:32 Edited at: 1st Nov 2010 06:33
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Quote: "I looked this up a while ago, only the plastic coating of the cd is damaged, not the actual data"


there are such things as cd shredders. You put the cd in , and it makes it comes out unusable.

there are even ways to roll back the layers of a hd that is intact for sure but ways to make the layers unrecoeverable is a different matter. So just how safe is a hammer or a magnet when it comes to data ? I suppose if a hd had a magnet taken to it then a hammer and it was in 40-50 pieces it would not be worth the time to attempt recovery

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Melancholic
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Posted: 1st Nov 2010 09:15
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You could also get some sandpaper to the hard drive.Smashing the hard drive would leave it recoverable in certain areas that are not cracked of damaged by the hammer. Has no one thought of petrol and matched to destroy a hard drive. Or even a microwave?


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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Nov 2010 13:26
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Quote: "I would assume that a giant magnet would be the best way to erase a hard drive? It's quicker than using a hammer and it can not be undone."

A DoD wipe would be easier.


As for hitting it with a hammer, if you've scratched the platters, there's a good chance nothing will read from it properly, especially if they've been bent. The whole reason hard drives are assembled in a clean room and sealed air-tight is because even a tiny spec of dust can scratch the surface and ruin a drive. But that's not to say some fancy expensive equipment couldn't overcome those issues if need be. A DoD wipe is standard for any government and financial institutions.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ~ Arthur C. Clarke
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