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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Want to build my own gaming rig... Need help

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mastercheif 193
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 04:31
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I have been wanting to build my own gaming rig for a while. I wanted to be able to play Crysis on the highest detail with no lag. I also want to get into modding for Battlefield 2 and of course making games with DBPro and FPS creator.

Thing is, I have no clue where to start. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman Begins
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heyufool1
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 05:05 Edited at: 27th Oct 2010 05:06
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http://www.newegg.com/
Start by looking at processors. Do a little research one whether you want to go Intel or AMD, then find a motherboard compatible with the processor. Then look into a graphics card (ATI or Nvidia), then RAM, then a PSU, then a case, then all the extra stuff (Optical drive, etc.). A lot of the generic stuff can be found simply by comparing details of the products on newegg (PSU requirements, socket req., interface req., etc.). Then the more complex questions can be asked/researched after you have a decent look on what you want.

Most people probably have their own approaches, but this is how I did it

"So hold your head up high and know, it's not the end of the road"
Impulse Game Engine
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Master Man Of Justice
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 05:12 Edited at: 28th Oct 2010 13:06
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[Edit]
Apparently i dont know anything.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 12:36
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latley i noticed a lack of good CPU cooling on newegg. Zalman just dissapered somewhere, newegg dosent have anything neither does any other website and in russia i cant find any zalmans either, they used to be popular. I am a fan of zalmans (get it lol like a fan on of a zalman cpu heatsink... Fan as in the actual fan like the thing that spins lol) ....

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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charger bandit
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 16:15 Edited at: 27th Oct 2010 16:17
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Zalman stopped making CPU coolers a while ago. In my opinion,akasa is the best way to go,got one in my case.

BTW,Master Man of Justice,you got a flaw in your post,DDR5 RAM does not exist,DDR3 ram is the only choice. DDR5 is video RAM.


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Master Man Of Justice
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 16:27
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i knew i had made a mistake somewhere

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CocaCola
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 17:14
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Well this is the one im building for $1100, it can get about 40+ frames on maximum detail on most games


Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
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charger bandit
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 18:28
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For 1100 dollars,you can get a six core AMD,the best Geforce GTX460 which is as fast as GTX470 and a motherboard with decent chipset.

Who the hell would buy a 150 bucks mobo with nForce chipset :S


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Melancholic
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 18:41
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Quote: "the best Geforce GTX460 which is as fast as GTX470"


I'm not sure about that, it may come close to a gtx 470 if overclocked a lot, but then you could also buy the cheapest gtx 470 for just a bit more, overclock that then get much better performance. Or if your feeling very ambitious get a gtx 465 and flash it to a gtx 470


I can count to banana...
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Astro Chickster
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 18:53
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My advice: Steer clear from 465 altogether.
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charger bandit
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 19:42
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GTX460 is the most clean and best chip from Fermi series,the GTX460 MSI Hawk is factory overclocked to the level to match up with GTX470. Also GTX460 is alot cooler than the 465,470 and 480 solutions.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 27th Oct 2010 22:16
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Quote: "Who the hell would buy a 150 bucks mobo with nForce chipset :"


i bought a 300 buck motherboard... it was an asus croffhair 4 formula. that was 6 months ago since then it dropped $100 and was replaced by a better vesion- the crosshair 4 extreme. I think the original had some heating issues altho i own it and there is really nothing about it that i can complain about. I think this is the best and the nost expensive motherboard for the AM3 socket. the thing is a beast id reccomend it to anyone

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Indicium
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 00:03
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Quote: " if you have a 64-bit , i think you can use up to 20GB of ram(around there) but you wont need that. "


Actually, I think it's more like 196gb not sure at all though... and you definitely won't ever need that much.

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mastercheif 193
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 01:32 Edited at: 28th Oct 2010 01:36
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Thanks for the information heyufool1 and Master Man of Justice. This helped. Sorry this is a little late response, it's because of school and work I heard about newegg but I never really had a chance to search through it.

Quote: "I assume you have a monitor, case, and all other external components you need."


I have everything other than the case. I have looked around and I found the one I liked.

[href]http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Thermaltake+-+Soprano+Mid-Tower+Case+-+Black/8763126.p?id=1203815240653&skuId=8763126&st=computer case&cp=1&lp=2[/href]

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129066

What do you think? Any cases that I should take a look at?

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman Begins
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 01:35
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i have 4 gigs now and i have never exeeded that limit, it never gave me any problems. i even forgot what its like to have your PC constantly hang up because of lack of ram. i am however considering upgrading to 8 gigs. that should be enough for the next 10 years

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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CocaCola
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 02:42
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you dont need a case to build a computer. u could use a microwave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2alyDo2QxOM

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
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Master Man Of Justice
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 02:54
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cocacola, dont entise him lol.

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CocaCola
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 04:10
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I had to google what entice meant, and im not simply telling him to be resourceful!

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
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kitty101
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 07:21
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Quote: "For 1100 dollars,you can get a six core AMD,the best Geforce GTX460 which is as fast as GTX470 and a motherboard with decent chipset.

Who the hell would buy a 150 bucks mobo with nForce chipset :S"


No, just no. AMD is terrible, he is better off with an i5 and a 480/470

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kitty101
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 07:24 Edited at: 28th Oct 2010 07:41
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If you want a 6 core AMD than get an intel i7 quad, the quad will outperform it in most cases.

Quote: "Ram:
Go for the fastest you can get that works with your motherboard, DDR5(preferably)

this is pretty important. It depends on your operating system on how much you want to get, if you have a 64-bit , i think you can use up to 20GB of ram(around there) but you wont need that.

I would stick to 8GB for x64
4GB for x86

Processor:
Intel
AMD(my preference, not most peoples)


make sure the clock speed is greater then 2.0 ghz or it will run like a laptop.

Depends on what you want to pay.

I dont know anything about the new I-core series, but if you arent leaning towards those, i would definitely get a duo-core>3.0GHZ
or a quadcore>2.4 ghz"


Misinformed, a lot.

use this,



Will max out everything you need.

Quote: "Well this is the one im building for $1100, it can get about 40+ frames on maximum detail on most games
+ Code Snippet
Video
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130549
EVGA 012-P3-1472-AR GeForce GTX 470 (Fermi) SuperClocked 1280MB 320-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card
$375



Memory
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231253&cm_re=4GB_240-pin_ddr3-_-20-231-253-_-Product
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-10600CL9D-4GBNT
$75



Power
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139009&Tpk=CORSAIR%20CMPSU-850TX%20850W%20ATX12V%202.2%20%2f%20EPS12V%202.91
CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W ATX12V 2.2
$140



Case
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119216
COOLER MASTER RC-692-KKN2 CM690 II Advanced Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$115



Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131636&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-RSSDailyDeals-_-na-_-na&AID=10521304&PID=3952774&SID=4d2hxgfzrp
ASUS M4N98TD EVO AM3 NVIDIA nForce 980a SLI ATX AMD Motherboard
$140



Processor
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103894&Tpk=phenom%20II%20x4%20970
AMD Phenom II X4 970 Black Edition Deneb 3.5GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core Desktop Processor HDZ970FBGMBOX
$205



Hard Drive
625GB Western Digital WDC WD64 00AAKS-22A7B SCSI Disk Device (IDE) -- Already have in desktop
Free



Optical Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136168&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-RSSDailyDeals-_-na-_-na&AID=10521304&PID=3952774&SID=44mq7k7luh
LG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 22X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD Burner - Bulk LightScribe Support - OEM
$15



Cooler
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835106141&Tpk=Thermaltake%20Contac%2029%20120mm%20CPU%20Cooler
Thermaltake Contac 29 120mm CPU Cooler
$35


Adds up to about:
$1100"


Terrible build, PSU is overkill you only need 550w-600w for a gtx 470. Cash wasted on case.

Quote: "Thanks for the information heyufool1 and Master Man of Justice. This helped. Sorry this is a little late response, it's because of school and work I heard about newegg but I never really had a chance to search through it.

Quote: "I assume you have a monitor, case, and all other external components you need."

I have everything other than the case. I have looked around and I found the one I liked.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Thermaltake+-+Soprano+Mid-Tower+Case+-+Black/8763126.p?id=1203815240653&skuId=8763126&st=computer case&cp=1&lp=2

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129066

What do you think? Any cases that I should take a look at?"



DONT USE BESTBUY!!!

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CocaCola
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 08:06
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Quote: "Terrible build, PSU is overkill you only need 550w-600w for a gtx 470. Cash wasted on case."

Dont call it a terrible build, I love the case and am getting it no matter what, I need I high watt PSU for overclocking to 4+ Ghz. I have gotten alot of people (mods as well) on techsupportforum.com say its a wonderful build for the money, and will run everything I throw at it, and lots of people on youtube are amazed with this build.

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
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mastercheif 193
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 08:29 Edited at: 28th Oct 2010 08:32
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Wow... I might have to try making a microwave pc haha. @kitty101- Thanks. I know not to use Best Buy just wanted to check what they had. Oh forgot, what will be better a radeon or a geforce?

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman Begins
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Melancholic
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 09:18
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Quote: "No, just no. AMD is terrible, he is better off with an i5 and a 480/470"


Based on what?, if you are that biased you have no place giving advice about technology. Sure Intel will outperform AMD in most cases but AMD is centered to a different audience. I also like how you give no reason for why AMD is horrible, obviously you are misinformed and then you go onto say someone else is misinformed?


I can count to banana...
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charger bandit
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 10:52 Edited at: 28th Oct 2010 10:56
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My god,what horrible advices you people are having,AMD terrible? 600W PSU overkill for GTX470? WTF$#%!%#$&

1.AMD six core CPU is the best option,best PRICE/POWER ratio
2.Geforce GTX460/Radeon 6850/6870,pick between these
3.Decent ASUS mobo with AMD chipset,no nForce crap
4.4-6GB of DDR3 ram should be more than enough for any nowaday thing
5.Decent quality 600-700w PSU,a must

Now to bust some of the myths of you people:

1.600W PSU has never been overkill for GTX470/480,and never will be,the old GF100 Fermi chips are freaking powerhouses,the 600W PSU would have a nice struggle with the thing

2.AMD has never been terrible and never will be,it is the ultimate choice for budget gamers.

Why you say?

I am also in the process of upgrading my rig and was picking between AMD Phenom and Intel i5,after hours of reviews and advices I found out the 5% preformance difference for 20% price difference,I am sticking with AMD. Intel still ain't buying me.

3.Neither Nvidia neither ATI/AMD graphic cards are horrible,buy what you prefer,I prefer Nvidia (got my reasons)


And if you must know,CocaCola,that build is far from perfect for it's money.

Not to be rude but seriously,stop giving these comments if you don't have a clue what the stuff is about.


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Master Man Of Justice
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 13:27
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Oh dear i see this thread is going to turn into an intel vs amd , and the ATI vs Nvidia.

@kitty101

Everything in your post was negative except the picture of newegg.
Why not tell me what i am mis-informed about so i can learn.

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CocaCola
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Posted: 28th Oct 2010 17:40
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Quote: "My god,what horrible advices you people are having,AMD terrible? 600W PSU overkill for GTX470? WTF$#%!%#$&"

THANK YOU

Quote: "
3.Neither Nvidia neither ATI/AMD graphic cards are horrible,buy what you prefer,I prefer Nvidia (got my reasons)"

I prefer it for PhysX, I bought it so I wanna use it (if only it was fully functioning)

Always program as if the person maintaining your program is a psychopath that knows where you live
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 02:18 Edited at: 29th Oct 2010 02:20
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btw a friend of mine got this really cool hack thing. basically he has 2 videocards in his computer an ati 5850 and a GTX460. he did some driver hack thingy mabober and now the 460 serves as a dedicated physx processor and the graphics run on his 5850. so you see ati and nvidia can coexist!

i myself built an ati AMD computer and i love it. the only downside is i cant take advantage of physx but thats fine with me as long as the games can run on full settings woth no slowdowns and it never gave me any problems with that. I am however building another PC which is intel/Nvidia. Since i have no money to buy the top of the line i7 (neither do i have a motherboard that supports one) i am gonna look for a 3 GHZ core2quad if i can find one on the market.

Also on powersupplies. the way i see it is overkill is a good thing. a weak powersupply can damage the hardware over time and cause performance issues like freezing and crashing. If you are building an sli/crossfire system or planning to you really should get a powerful PSU like for 1000W. if its a single card systema 600W should be plenty but id perfer no less. Corsair makes very good PSUs. i have a corsair 620 but i am planning on upgrading it to a 740 (its only 100 bucks).

Quote: "Power
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139009&Tpk=CORSAIR%20CMPSU-850TX%20850W%20ATX12V%202.2%20%2f%20EPS12V%202.91
CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W ATX12V 2.2
$140
"


that is an EXELLENT PSU btw. it will serve you well

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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kitty101
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 02:28
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.
Quote: "My god,what horrible advices you people are having,AMD terrible? 600W PSU overkill for GTX470? WTF$#%!%#$&
"


the minimum is 550w

Quote: "1.AMD six core CPU is the best option,best PRICE/POWER ratio
"


no it isn't

Quote: "5.Decent quality 600-700w PSU,a must
"


550w - 600w if he gets a 4 /70/60/80

Quote: "2.AMD has never been terrible and never will be,it is the ultimate choice for budget gamers.
"


1100$ isn't budget

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Eminent
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 02:58
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The 6 core is the best Price/Power. Your arguments are just 3 word sentences that just equate to no.


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Master Man Of Justice
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 05:15
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Eminent, i disagree with your first statement. I agree with your second.

The reason i dont think the 6core is worth it, is because precisely this.
Most programs dont even take full advantage of quad cores!!!
So why waste your money on something that will probably change in the next year or two and you wont be able to use it?

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charger bandit
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 09:24 Edited at: 29th Oct 2010 09:26
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Why spend tons of money on some stupid idiotic Intel i7 while you get 2 more cores and up to par power for HALF LESS MONEY!"#!
The 6 core CPU will hold for pretty much anything in the next 3-4 years.

And don't tell me 600w PSU can run GTX470,I have a minimum requrement of 500w PSU on a freakin ancient Radeon 4770. My poor noname PSU 550w is struggling epicly with the 4770.

I ordered a 600w LC Power PSU Black Edition today so I will be able to run this ancient box decently:

Athlon X2 3,6ghz
Radeon 4770
2gb RAM
1 SATA HDD

In short,YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 11:57
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i understand the concern about 6 core CPU since not everything takes advantage of it. in that case a phenom 2 quadcore 3.4 GHZ is the best price/power ratio since you can overclock it to 4 ghz stable without even extra heat if you have good cooling. the most powerful 6 core ithink is a 3.2 GHz.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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charger bandit
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 12:02
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But the new 6 core models also overclock pretty well,if I would pick from top Phenom X4 and Phenom X6 I would go for X6.


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 18:59 Edited at: 29th Oct 2010 19:04
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Quote: "Why spend tons of money on some stupid idiotic Intel i7 while you get 2 more cores and up to par power for HALF LESS MONEY!"#!"


Read the facts before you start mouthing off.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/charts/desktop-cpu-charts-2010/ALU-Performance-SiSoftware-Sandra-2010-Pro-ALU,2408.html

Both AMDs top range cpu has the same performance as Intel's bottom range i7. And they cost the same.
Only a fool buys a processor because it has "2 more cores".

I just don't understand why people spend £500 on a GPU then skimp out on the processor.

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Astro Chickster
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 19:26
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Quote: "the minimum is 550w"


Yes, MINIMUM. If you wanted to overclock it, or even put it at full load, you've only got 50w to spare.

Quote: "My poor noname"


There's your problem. My Hiper 580w isn't struggling at all with my overclocked GTX 460 and Phenom II X4 3.4ghz.
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charger bandit
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 19:44
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BiggAdd: Sure the cheapest i7 is almost as cheap as Phenom X6 but the motherboard is 2x more expensive then.


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lazerus
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 19:53
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Well i cant flaw charger bandit since i bounced alot of ideas off him when i built this rig im using, he knows his stuff lol. The Amd phenom x6 is a monster and i would happily reccomend it performance wise. For future proofing aswell since ill be running this thing for the next 3-4 years now.
I only really max it out when i use it with rendering so no complaints.


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
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charger bandit
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 20:26
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Oh yeah,thanks for pointing out also that in rendering,2 extra cores are huge help.


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Indicium
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Posted: 29th Oct 2010 20:43
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law

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kitty101
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 03:19
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Quote: "Both AMDs top range cpu has the same performance as Intel's bottom range i7. And they cost the same.
Only a fool buys a processor because it has "2 more cores"."


Thank god, someone that knows what they are talking about.

Quote: "Oh yeah,thanks for pointing out also that in rendering,2 extra cores are huge help.
"


Not in video games, most don't even use 2+ cores.

Quote: "But the new 6 core models also overclock pretty well,if I would pick from top Phenom X4 and Phenom X6 I would go for X6.
"


So does the Intel 980x, I'd still get the 950 if I were on a budget.

Quote: "And don't tell me 600w PSU can run GTX470,I have a minimum requrement of 500w PSU on a freakin ancient Radeon 4770. My poor noname PSU 550w is struggling epicly with the 4770.
"


Yes they can, I have the box for mine right behind me and I read it right off of it.

In short.. stop arguing something without getting your facts right, your begging to be more angsty than all of facepunch

Quote: "The 6 core is the best Price/Power. Your arguments are just 3 word sentences that just equate to no.
"


No it isn't, a quad core i 7/5 will perform the same/better for the same price.

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charger bandit
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 09:41 Edited at: 30th Oct 2010 09:44
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The stupidest thing of all to do is buy last year technology,Intel is moving on new sockets 1155 and 2011 so it's obviously much better to buy an AM3 platform as AMD is not planning to change the socket in the next 2 years except a new one for their new processors with integrated graphics.

And you stop talking stupid things,HERE YOU GO. Sure,the GTX470 consums "only" 400 watts of power on load,but what about the other 150w on CPU and the other stuff?

And should I mention Intel doesn't have true quad core CPU?


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Melancholic
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 11:27
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Quote: "The stupidest thing of all to do is buy last year technology,Intel is moving on new sockets 1155 and 2011 so it's obviously much better to buy an AM3 platform as AMD is not planning to change the socket in the next 2 years except a new one for their new processors with integrated graphics."


Erm what?, Bulldozer will use a new socket called AM3+ which will not be backwards compatible with AM3.

At the end of the day, i am an AMD fan, though i am not biased. Core i7's outperform Phenom x4's. Clock for clock intel is faster.

With a quad core and good graphics 650 watt is really the minimum you want to go. I suggest going for a Corsair PSU as they are by far the best product. Their wattage is underrated so your getting more watts then you pay for. Ive seen an i5 twin 5770 rig run of a 550 watt corsair psu.

The graphics card is a bit harder, i prefer Nvidia because of Cuda and Physx. Though AMD currently are best value for money with the 6870. Though currently the GTX 460 is also great value for money.

If you can wait then i suggest it, with AMD's new processors and graphics cards coming out as well as Intel's new sandy bridge. Prices on the current top end will fall giving some good deals, but also you have the possibility to get the newest tech(though at a slightly higher price as it would just have been released


I can count to banana...
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charger bandit
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 12:44
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Actually the new AMD processors will be compatible with AM3,the standard ones,but the Bulldozers with integrated ATI graphics will use the new socket.


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Melancholic
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 14:05
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Quote: "Actually the new AMD processors will be compatible with AM3,the standard ones,but the Bulldozers with integrated ATI graphics will use the new socket."


Really?

Quote: "We already know that there will be two x86 cores based on this new architecture, each facilitating competitive functionality in a handful of different markets. Bulldozer is intended for deployment in everything from mainstream clients (including desktops and notebooks) to servers. Bobcat is supposed to be the more flexible design, enabling the low power and small dies needed in netbooks and cloud-optimized clients."


From http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bulldozer-bobcat-hot-chips,2724.html


Bulldozer is the standard chip, Bobcat is AMD's response to Intel's Atom it seems


I can count to banana...
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charger bandit
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 14:09
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Seems like some will work on AM3,some on the newer AM.


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Melancholic
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 14:13
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Quote: "Seems like some will work on AM3,some on the newer AM."


To my understanding AM3 chips will work on an AM3+ motherboard but AM3+ chips will not work on AM3 motherboards. Originally AMD said that Bulldozer will work on AM3 but they changed their minds. It sucks but probably for the better


I can count to banana...
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bitJericho
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 15:48
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Quote: "Zalman stopped making CPU coolers a while ago."


That makes me They were the best. I'll have to hold onto my cooler like gold. Spent 60 bucks for it, worth every penny.

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charger bandit
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 20:32
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Meh there are a lot of new solutions for a lot less money nowadays,a few of them: Scythe Katana,Akasa coolers (have one,epicness of every cent).


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Master Man Of Justice
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 20:34
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This is the first time i can say there is an equal amount of nonconstructiveness and constructiveness in alot of these posts lol.

If that makes sense?

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mastercheif 193
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Posted: 30th Oct 2010 21:20
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Quote: "This is the first time i can say there is an equal amount of nonconstructiveness and constructiveness in alot of these posts lol."


This is true. Wow I didn't think this thread would get this many post... Thanks guys!

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman Begins
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