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Geek Culture / How do we know if an insults an insult?

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 19:30
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Ive been thinking of making my own AI system. Abit like cleverbot which remembers what you say to it. And your responses to what it says (and then uses that data in future conversations).

However, how does the human mind know when an insult is really an insult. I was thinking that it would then require people to use mics because we convey alot of emotion with the tone of our voice. But then again in forum posts we usually get the answer vaguely correct (that if its banter or an insult). Even though on the internet it is harder to understand the response how does our mind figure it out?

I figure that if someone you talk with alot and you think you get on with 'insults' you. Then its a good chance its banter. If you dont know the person much, then its a good chance its an insult.

But how do we figure out what is an insult? I mean, for example, 'Your the nerdiest nerd ever' Could be an insult (and usually is), but they could also be praising your intelligence.

So what does everyone think on this?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 20:09
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I think you're right that it depends who is saying it.
Just like you knew what I was talking about when I said "it" in that last sentence, people infer meaning in the same way based on who they are talking to.
If someone on TGC said you were the nerdiest nerd ever, you'd probably take it as a compliment because we are all nerds here! If a techno-phobe friend said it you'd take it as a bit of banter, but if someone you didn't get on with said it you might be insulted.

It's all about the context in which it is said, very little of the meaning comes from the actual words themselves.

I'd be very interested to see AI that responds in this way.

If all else fails, make it friendly and take everything as a joke.


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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 20:42
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I think it matters how you say it. It also matters who's receiving the comment

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lazerus
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 20:50
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The intent behind it?


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Phaelax
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 21:04
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Tone of voice and who the person is that's saying it. Your relation with the other person can change the meaning of words entirely, such as the difference between an insult and sarcasm.

Insults in writing rather than speech I think tend to be more blunt, because it's harder to pick up on the subtleties of language.

Then again, designing a computer system to detect "insults" could be very difficult since I've met many humans who can't even tell when they're being insulted.... stupid humans.

"Only the educated are free" ~Epictetus
"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ~Einstein
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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 23:48
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Any use of demeaning words towards a person and also swear words are usually taken as an insult.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 00:26
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I disagree Daniel. I think good friends swear and insult each other as a bit of banter, I know I do it alot with my mates.

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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 01:40
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Heres what i think... the advantage a person has over a computer is years (some more than others. and as long as your not totally obtuse.) and years of harwired experience interacting with other people. The internet does mask some emotion, as well as literacy, and language barriers, but for the most part we have experience in reading between the lines because its something that weve been perfecting since the day we are born. A computer is an infant when it comes to "reading" the underlying tone of a response. I think that it would take some heavy heavy A.I routines and tons of stimulation from users to gain a data bank of relys to sample in order to respond correctly to a human response. There are just so many rules in human behavior to really decern more then whats typed on the screen.... unless your another human.

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 10:43
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Alot of good threads here.
I think so far ive concluded this:
If someone calls you something that you do not know the meaning, then generally received as an insult.
Your relation with the other person, for example if you usually get along with them and they call you stupid then it is usually banter. But if they keep calling you names then you can get offended.
Also calling someone for what they are, is also usually an insult. (even though true).
It also depends on the players background. For example if a 'magic' class says 'Your a warrior' It could be demeaning, but if the player was a warrior themselves. It could be praise (that or they are just narrating what they see lol).

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 11:05
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Quote: "I disagree Daniel. I think good friends swear and insult each other as a bit of banter, I know I do it alot with my mates."


So do I XD, but it's only because I know them well enough. Some time though, you can't tell, even when talking on a voice server, but then, if you know the person, you can guess fairly well.

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 12:49
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Is your AI male or female? That will make a BIG difference. A female AI would normally take as an insult any statement that does not expressly convey praise.
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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 13:23
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It would be a male.
Making a female AI would be far too complicated...
'I like your belt'
'ARE YOU TRYING TO CALL ME FAT?!'
=p

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 20:13
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Quote: "I disagree Daniel. I think good friends swear and insult each other as a bit of banter, I know I do it alot with my mates."
#

I do it a lot, heck, even racist terms to those of a different race or skin colour. My Dad calls me a twat from time to time. It's one of the difficult things, although our language offers meaning on each word, we often subvert it for the use of irony or even out of some kind of banter. Some words become slang terms and are used in different ways. Heck, if you were to type, "I f***ing hate you!", you might actually mean, "you're awesome!" After all, I've said it and meant that. It'd be a real challenge coding that in.

Of course, there's no way to code in the tone, as it's written English and we already see on the internet that what somebody writes on the internet (like on this forum) can be completely misconstrued due to double meanings and tone can't be taken into consideration. I'm sure my facetious nature has been taken the wrong way, hence in one recent post I wrote, "this isn't grammar Nazism, this is just me being me" to just say, "I'm making a joke because I find your grammatical error to be funny".


Doing this would be difficult, but I suppose you could just give the bot a bit of wit, so if I say, "I f***ing hate you!" (which might in some contexts mean, "what you're doing is fantastic!") he could respond, "Well, I love you too." So if you're being mean, he's making an ironic statement in response, if you're being nice, so's he. So play on the ambiguity and make his (or her) responses ambiguous and leave it up to the user's interpretation.

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xplosys
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 20:20 Edited at: 20th Jan 2011 20:23
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Quote: "Then again, designing a computer system to detect "insults" could be very difficult since I've met many humans who can't even tell when they're being insulted.... stupid humans."


I think I've just been insulted.

Just from my experience on this forum alone, I'd say that in text, there's no way to determine demeanor, especially from someone you don't know. Many times I've tried to be funny and was taken serious. Perhaps you could add emoticons or some type of attitude choice buttons.

... and the band played on.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Jan 2011 20:54
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Quote: "Many times I've tried to be funny and was taken serious."


Come to think of it, when I make a subtle joke in real life, when they know me and have tone and context in their favour, it still slides by as being serious. Like jokingly telling my supervisor that he'd better watch out for child services when telling me, "my son's often covered in bruises". *Shrugs*

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 00:16
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Wow, that must've been awkward Seppuku. XD

I see what you mean by the "I hate you" thing. It could be that you hate them in general, hate them for doing whatever t is they did, or, (jokingly), hate them for doing it better than you.

It's like that Chinese Room theory. The PC would have to consider so many tiny, subtle little variables that accumulate to huge differences. Tracking them is okay, recording them, (examples: eye wideness, stance, tone of voice, volume, speed, gestures.)

Speech is only 30% verbal, or something like that. Perhaps something could be done using Kinect technology, but it'd be a chore and expensive.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 00:57
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Quote: "
I see what you mean by the "I hate you" thing. It could be that you hate them in general, hate them for doing whatever t is they did, or, (jokingly), hate them for doing it better than you."


That's a pretty good example - I don't think I've ever seriously said 'I hate you'. Sarcasm might be one of the most complicated emotions for a computer to detect, as it can be incredibly subtle.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." That's a bit like saying Hey bullies! So yeah, this words thing isn't working, but I'll tell you what will
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 01:48 Edited at: 21st Jan 2011 01:49
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Quote: "Wow, that must've been awkward Seppuku."


Not really, he just concurred (as a concern he might have) and went on with the conversation. He missed another one by saying, "do you know why motorcyclists should look into the eyes of motorists?" (he rides a motorbike) I responded with, "so that they remember your face for life and live with that guilt if they kill you." He took it as a serious answer and corrected me with, "so they acknowledge that they're there".

Normally it's like those two examples. Perhaps I should change my tone more, I suppose sometimes I do make it sound a little too serious, but that can be half of it, my dad often uses a serious tone, usually he likes to trick people, like convincing somebody he works with that he had the top half of his leg amputated but not the bottom half. I found the phrase, "it's a little known fact" gives any statement credibility, even if it's complete rubbish.

It's a little known fact that squirrels can be trained to learn people's bank details and report them back to their trainers by arranging a series of nuts to represent each digit, it's why you'll never find a cash machine near a tree.

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The Slayer
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 02:40
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I think it depends a lot on the person who recieves the insults or banter. Some people have a hard skin, while others react hostile to the littlest banter or joke. And, it also depends on the person who said it, and how he said it. Where I was working before, there where some guyz and they'd allways pick on me. At first I didn't care less that they said something insulting to me, but when they started to do it all of the time, it really got to me.
There's a lot of factors that play a role here, so it would be really difficult to make a program that reacts as humans do.

Cheers

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soapyfish
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 03:17
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I'm insulted when I see Justin Bieber.

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Herakles
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 07:18 Edited at: 21st Jan 2011 07:34
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I have said "I hate you" to at least two (as far as I can remember, though there have probably been more instances that I can't remember) people before: my ex wives. And believe me when I say that I wholeheartedly meant it.

Quote: "I do it a lot, heck, even racist terms to those of a different race or skin colour."


Yeah, me too. I even once used the N word, along with several other "general" (i.e. non race specific) expletives, in a joke insult to a black person. But he and I had been friends for so long that he knew I meant it as a joke, not an actual insult. He even laughed with me at the ridiculous silliness of it. I would, of course, absolutely NEVER use that word with someone who does not know me well enough to understand that it's a joke, not a racist insult.

I don't think it's possible to program an AI that can detect this sort of thing with the current method of user input (pure text). You would have to have it communicate with people via aural communication (you talk to it through a microphone and it recognizes what you are saying). Although, the reliability of that kind of technology (as we have it today, at least) is questionable. Perhaps in several years when voice recognition technology is further advanced it will be possible to create this kind of artificial intelligence.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 23:15
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Quote: "I'm insulted when I see Justin Bieber."


Typical youtube comment.

If you can see the enemy, they can see you.
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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 21st Jan 2011 23:27
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It can't be, its lacking racism and "your mom" insults

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Libervurto
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2011 11:46
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I don't know if this is a British thing, but people (especially men) will often mock and insult each other as a sign of affection, and also a kind of test of how you feel about them. The logic being that the more insulting they can be and still not offend you, the more you show yourself to like them.


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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 12:48
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Quote: "I don't know if this is a British thing, but people (especially men) will often mock and insult each other as a sign of affection, and also a kind of test of how you feel about them. The logic being that the more insulting they can be and still not offend you, the more you show yourself to like them."

I'm american, but I always insult my friends for humor's sake!

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