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Geek Culture / Getting Custom Integrated Circuits Manufactured

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 05:37
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So lately i have been doing a lot of research on how microprocessors work (registers, caches, etc) and i know that you can send in a PCB design and get it printed, but is it possible to send in an IC design and get it manufactured?

Please reply, thanks!

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 06:34
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Manufacture an integrated circuit? Not for hobbyist/small orders... mainly because important integrated circuits are really complicated.

Just as good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_gate_array

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 06:40 Edited at: 7th Mar 2011 06:52
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How ironic, i just was looking at this exact page earlier today and didnt think much of it. Thanks!

I was thinking a couple days ago about C++ing a large program that would accept a diagram and assembly language specs and just emulate it, but that would be an incredibly complex program.

There surely must be some company that specializes in custom IC orders...

Edit:

Finding some rather interesting information on ASIC's (Application Specific Integrated Circuit) and semi custom design, where you put together small, pre-designed sub-circuits that you can get individually manufactured...

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 11:43
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IC fabrication is a verrrryy expensive process, so usually it only makes sense to do it in large quantities where it commercially viable. If you've got any local universities which are strong on engineering then it might be worth a try there. One of the unis which has given me an offer (Southampton UK) has a silicon / IC fabrication plant which they let students use. To give you an idea of the cost, it costs them more than we're paying for an entire year of student fees for us to fabricate a single IC.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 23:45 Edited at: 7th Mar 2011 23:59
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Wow! Why so incredibly expensive? Most CPU's are only around 80 to 100 dollars How do electronics companies get started then? Thanks!

Also, i have been doing a lot of research on ASIC design. What is the use of designing them if they cant be fabricated, or can they? On Wikipedia it says ASIC's are fabricated for one customer and one customer only, so they can use them. How would i get an ASIC fabricated?

The reason I'm against an FPGA is one, i dont know how it works and would have to do tons of research as i dont like using anything if i dont know what is going on inside, and two, i want to have a tangible chip that i could put into a circuit and make something with.

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 00:08
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Quote: "How do electronics companies get started then?"

Most electronics companies that aren't famous for making ICs use microcontrollers for everything, and the ones that do make ICs have been around for literally decades and have MASSIVE funds behind them. Also I remember reading somewhere that the price for developing an IC is in the millions

The only real way a hobbiest could design one is with a FPLGA or A LOT of transistors/resistors/capacitors/diodes. Open the datasheet on even a simple IC (like an LM741) and think about how complicated the schematic is (it looks simpler than it is), and even once you've designed it, you need A LOT of funding to get it into mass production.

Get on my level
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 00:58
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I see. I was reading about some ASIC manufacturers, ill have to put some more research into that. Now when you say that it can cost millions, is that the fabrication cost or the design cost? I was reading somewhere that getting an ASIC fabricated is cheaper than getting a FPGA...

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 01:12
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What use would having an integrated circuit manufactured serve???

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 02:12 Edited at: 8th Mar 2011 02:17
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Well, i am getting into IC design as well as programming. But like programming, i wouldnt want to design one without it being built so i can use it, like i wouldnt want to write a bunch of code without being able to compile and use it... I program becuase i like to and find it interesting, and i would design because i would (and do) find it interesting and fun.

The other option is to make one out of low level chips that have things like individual AND, OR, NOT, etc gates on a bread-board like this one guy on youtube did. But what im aiming at is making my own, small gaming console. If i put it into mass production (lol how would i do that?!!?) then the IC fabrication would be profitable.

I did a lot of research earlier and found a company called Open-Silicon, and they for a low price manage all stages of IC production from design to packaging, and you can supposedly send in a design and they would take care of getting it fabricated and packaged, all for a low price.

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 08:15
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im not so sure as to what your trying to design... if you let some of us in on the basic idea we could better assist you. I used to build electronic keyboards. There is a lot that can be done with analog electronics: capacitors, resistors, diodes, transistors, coils, pots... so im not really sure what your plan is but when it comes to designing this kind of stuff i might be able to give some suggestions... anyway good luck with your search.

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NST
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 11:05
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If you are talking about digital IC's then there are any number of programmable PGA's etc, that cost a few $ (or £ or € or whatever your game is). A programmer may cost you a few 00's, and they can be "blown" in huge quantities for peanuts...
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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 13:50
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If you're looking to develop a small console look at using currently available microprocessor systems. There's a lot based on ARM which would be good for something like that, alternatively just use an MCU.
I honestly don't see why you need to develop your own processor system for something like that when so many simpler and more open options are available.

Get on my level
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Benjamin
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 15:40
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Why not take a look at one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_electronics_circuit_simulators



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TheComet
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 16:24
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TheComet

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the_winch
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 19:14
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I always understood that this sort of ASIC would initially be developed on a FPGA like device. Then there are ASIC manufactures that can basically take the "source file" for the FPGA and spit out an ASIC.

So you would develop the product with an FPGA. Then once the design was finalized have a large quantity of the ASIC manufactured for use in production.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 00:08
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@Primal Beans Yeh, im thinking about digital... Thanks though

@NST I have considered, that, though i would program it myself...

@ Planetary Funk
Quote: "I honestly don't see why you need to develop your own processor system for something like that when so many simpler and more open options are available"
Lets say i like a challenge I have considered using an ARM...

@ Benjamin Those are interesting

@ The Comet Thanks! I already know how microprocessors are made, it is a very interesting processes, eh?

@ the_winch That is certainly something to put research into, thanks!



Thanks for all the replies, guys. I did research as always and found that its not the production that is expensive, it's the mask set making that costs all the money. Now just how much of a quantity would i need to make something like this profitable?

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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SH4773R
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 08:37
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Its not really how much you would need it would be how many people would buy it.

My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Mar 2011 00:42
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I see! Would it cost much more if only one wafer were to be fabricated? Not that id only want one but just curious Thanks!

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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