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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] North America vs. Europe

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Mar 2011 23:29 Edited at: 13th Mar 2011 23:31
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Quote: "Then have a sytem of licensing as in the UK for lawful ownership and use of guns. Simple."


We have that. And people like my grandfather, and my good buddy got their FAC (firearms certificate). But that in itself is a great thing! I totally don't agree with just an all-out ban.

The problem though is that gang members are NOT getting their FACs, of course, so it makes the honest guys look bad.

Even all out banning guns will not deter the "bad guys" from getting theirs.

Just compare it with cocaine. That's banned here, but there's still a large drug problem because the "bad guys" are importing it and selling it.


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 13th Mar 2011 23:53 Edited at: 13th Mar 2011 23:55
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I live in the US. I own guns.

I'll be honest enough to admit that having guns more accessible to the general public DOES make violent crimes easier to commit. I also don't really buy the "I carry a gun for self-defense" reasoning for have them either. I think most people that carry a gun for self-defense are much more likely to get themselves killed than they are to defend themselves.

With that said, it isn't exactly the wild west here (like most Europeans seem to think it is). It seems that most Europeans think that the US is a real-life version of Grand-Theft Auto. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't walk down a dark alley in a bad part of the city in the middle of the night. But, I doubt most Europeans would do that in their own cities either. There is a certain portion of a poulation that are willing to do whatever they want in order to get whatever they want. If someone is willing to kill you for your wallet, they are almost as dangerous with a knife as they are with a pistol. At that point, it isn't about the weapon that is available to the "bad-guy".

I like my constitutional right to own guns. I don't feel "safer" because I have them. I don't fear them either. I would say that the fear of guns in Europe is MUCH greater than the actual effect of legal guns in America. I find it pretty humorous how over-inflated the fear is.

a.k.a WOLF!
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lazerus
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Posted: 13th Mar 2011 23:59
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Guns dont kill people, the person who pulls the trigger does. Kitchen ware can do as much damamge as a lock knife while a brick or nearest to hand object can still kill you. Fear of certain objects is overated.


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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 00:06 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 00:07
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Yah, Europeans tend to have an overly-stereotypical view of the US' gun culture. It reminds me of this Finnish couple who were scared to visit British Columbia because of the grizzly bears


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 00:13
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Not our fault we've had the necessary thousands of years to kill off 90% of the lethal predators.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 00:25 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 00:30
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America shouldn't ban guns and the UK shouldn't completely legalise them. That much I would have thought was obvious.

As for "over-inflated fears of guns": Guns are made specifically to kill people, or at least to seriously injure them. Cars and knives may also be effective killers, but that is not their purpose. For that reason I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want to live somewhere where it's normal to carry guns.

Also, are you more afraid of flying or of driving a car? Statistically, you are far more likely to die in a car than a plane, but most people are more afraid of flying because it's something they have no control over. The same goes for guns. If some madman wants to shoot you then there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop him. You could be dead before you even realise. If he wanted to stab you he'd have to get close to you. The same goes for cars. If someone tried to run you over, you still have a good chance of getting out of the way.

I can think of only a few reasons why an individual would carry a gun, unless it's for use on animals or for sport:

1) Self-defense
Dubious to start with, there's absolutely no evidence to show that people who carry guns are safer. In fact, it's usually the opposite. On top of this, you just have to look at the statistics to see that orders of magniture more people (mainly children) die in gun related accidents than are saved because someone had a gun to defend themselves. Therefore, I would not like to be in an environment where people carry guns for self-defense because IMO it is irrational, and who wants irrational people to carry guns.

2) To show off
If you think that carrying around lethal weapons is cool, then I'd want to stay as far away from you as possible. I can see that people might take pride in being knowledgable or skilled at using guns, but they can do that perfectly well off the streets.

If anyone can carry a gun, you have to trust in everyone elses judgement. I'd love to be able to trust everyone's judgement, but the fact is that there are a large number of people who are just plain stupid. Yes, they might have good intentions, but that doesn't help when someone's been shot because they made a bad decision.

And I know that the vast majority of the time, this stuff doesn't happen, but it's still worth considering those times when it does.

As for interesting gun laws in the UK, it's legal to own a pistol as long as you have a license and 4 (I think) of the 6 parts of the barrel are blocked off. (So you can't go on a killing spree with it, because you'd have to keep reloading) I've actually fired a .44 Magnum and a rifle belonging to someone who owns a deer farm.

[b]
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Errant AI
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 00:51 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 01:14
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Quote: "Let's face it, this is a pretty much indisputable fact: The entire world view of America is solely based on the South."


I'd say that's highly disputable as well. Most impressions of the different regions come from TV stereotypes dreamed up by Hollywood writers. We also have some very controversial foreign policies which many Americans themselves don't agree with. And of course there's the "if it bleeds it leads" news media.

Quote: "In Canada you can get as little as a 3 or 4 year sentence for murdering your wife. Lax sentences are THE problem, in my mind."


I remember the story about the insane guy up in Canada who killed a guy on a bus (with a knife) and ate his eyeballs or something like that and didn't get any prison time for it. It'll probably be the same in the states before long.

I always had fun doing a border run into Vancouver, B.C. whenever one of our classmates would turn 19. Canadians are definitely some of the most polite and helpful people I've ever met.

Quote: "Guns are made specifically to kill people"


Not really. Guns are made to equalize force equations. Before guns if individuals were in a fight the victor would most always be the one who was more athletic, younger, stronger or had others helping them. Guns helped to balance that equation and as a result the mere presence of them can promote civil behavior.

Quote: "1) Self-defense
Dubious to start with, there's absolutely no evidence to show that people who carry guns are safer."


Instances of guns preventing harm aren't tallied.

This also goes on the assumption that society is intact and running smoothly. Many U.S. gun owners keep arms on the premise of, "Its better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it". There may come a day when we are without rule of law and people go nuts as a result of natural disaster, large scale terror strike, etc. After hurricane Katrina we had cops stealing cars, looting shops and shooting unarmed citizens in addition to the riff-raff doing it. If America does eventually go bankrupt it will make the riots in Greece ond other parts of Europe look like toddlers having a snowball fight.
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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 01:10 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 01:11
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Quote: "I remember the story about the insane guy up in Canada who killed a guy on a bus (with a knife) and ate his eyeballs or something like that and didn't get any prison time for it. It'll probably be the same in the states before long."


Yes, that happened in 2008. He is a Chinese immigrant who was on a Greyhound bus and just started stabbing the passenger next to him in the throat over and over. Everyone rushed off the bus and he proceeded to cut the guy's head off and raise it in the air to show everyone who was freaking out on the outside. He cannibalized parts of the guy before the police got him out. He was declared insane and he may never have this on his permanent criminal record. Insane!

The dude who was decapitated was sleeping in his seat with his headphones on. Poor guy


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 01:11
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Quote: "Also, are you more afraid of flying or of driving a car? Statistically, you are far more likely to die in a car than a plane, but most people are more afraid of flying because it's something they have no control over."

I understand what you are saying Diggsey. A person is more afraid of flying because he has less control. I would also add that a wreck in an airplane would almost always have terrible results as compared to the results of a car wreck. But, as you say, statistically, flying is much safer. So, what is misplaced? The numbers or our fears?
The same is true with guns. It isn't the weapon. It is the willingness of the bad-guy to do you harm that is dangerous. You may theoretically feel that you have more control if a guy has a knife. I'd say that those feelings are what is misplaced. More than likely, if a guy is willing to stab you to take your wallet, you would probably never even see the knife. Survival rates are probably better with knife wounds than gun wounds. I'll give you that much.

I know lots of people with carry permits. Most of those people rarely carry their weapons when they go out. There are a couple people that I know that almost always carry. One of them is a police officer. Another one just feels "safer" because he has it (I think his fears are misplaced too).

a.k.a WOLF!
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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 01:23 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 01:39
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Quote: "I find it pretty humorous how over-inflated the fear is."


Yeah, it's worth sticking around for


Quote: "Cars and knives may also be effective killers, but that is not their purpose. For that reason I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want to live somewhere where it's normal to carry guns."


Normal? The right to carry is there, but that doesn't mean that everyone uses it. The ones that are legally carrying have proven their responsibility to do so. It's not as if any person can carry a firearm outside whenever they feel the desire. It's similar to the process of getting a one-and-a-half ton potential killing-machine (a vehicle); before you're handed a license to take that killer out on the streets, you first have to prove that you are responsible enough to hold that right. It doesn't really matter what the purpose of the 'tool' is, it's how the person decides to use it. Everyone that drives a vehicle has the choice each and everyday to turn it into a murder weapon. The same way that any criminal who decides to tuck a kitchen knife into his pants can make the choice to pull it on an unsuspecting victim.


I won't argue that with the right to bear arms more fatalities arise; but I will point out the apparent overlooked fact that any right granted to the people raises the fatality rate. Take away the right to firearms in an attempt to cut back on criminal acts, and where does it end? Should the civilized nations across the world ban every knife and sharp kitchen utensil because of the possibility they will be used in a criminal homicide?

Should both of our nations go back to horse and buggy to prevent the hundreds of thousands of vehicle-related fatalities and mansluaghters each and every year? Or, should we ban alcohol (again) to cut back on the number of drunk driving fatalities? Can we please work together to ban cigarettes in both in America and the UK? I don't smoke. And I don't at all like the idea that hundreds of thousands of people that don't, die of second-hand smoke each and every year for a right granted to others.


Quote: "If anyone can carry a gun, you have to trust in everyone elses judgement. I'd love to be able to trust everyone's judgement, but the fact is that there are a large number of people who are just plain stupid."


I don't know if we're talking about carrying guns, or driving in traffic :/

Kravenwolf

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 01:31
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AHAHAHhahahahh i love the flamebait tag on the thread's title!

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 01:37
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Quote: "AHAHAHhahahahh i love the flamebait tag on the thread's title!"


Regular users can see that!? I always thought it's just for the mods hehehe.


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AutoBot
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 01:37
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Quote: "AHAHAHhahahahh i love the flamebait tag on the thread's title!"

Yeah, I don't know how those tags *magically* appear there.

Screw guns, I'm all for my singularity projector.



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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 02:31
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These are some interesting thoughts - and I just think everyone should be congratulated for being sensible and not letting this slip into a flamewar.

Quote: "Guns dont kill people, the person who pulls the trigger does. Kitchen ware can do as much damamge as a lock knife while a brick or nearest to hand object can still kill you. Fear of certain objects is overated."


I think you're probably right here. The only case which I can think of which doesn't fit this is a shooting spree: if you go on a stabbing spree you will probably be overpowered eventually, whereas if you have a gun then you essentially have far more power than most other people present.

I'm not sure what that tells us about banning guns, though, since if guns are legal there might be an armed bystander who can take down the killer. My instinct is to say that, as far as killing sprees go, it's probably more sensible to make guns impossible to procure without a license (as in the UK) since this would prevent most killing sprees from taking place. I think this is partially backed up by the fact that there have hardly been any killing sprees in the UK, but there tend to be (I think) several in the US per year.

Of course, this is not by any means conclusive proof that banning guns prevents killing sprees, since the UK is smaller and is therefore less likely to have a killing spree in the first place. So my argument is by no means watertight.

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 02:52
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Quote: "have far more power than most other people present."

What if everyone present had a gun?

If it was a stabbing spree and it was say some black belt ninja dude, and he was stabbing aload of weak people, then he would probably kill them all. But if the weak person then has a gun, it equalizes the situation.

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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 03:04 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 03:38
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HA! Everytime I leave, "you people" are proving my points. It's funny. "You guys" (and you know who you are) are spouting off about issues you know nothing about -- except what you've been told is correct -- and your arrogance and childishness is truly repugnant.

So, I was arrogant? Hmmmm... I did say that I didn't like the arrogance I was seeing from a number of Europeans on this thread. Let's see... Did I tell them how to live their lives? How to experience their cultures? Change their routines? Nope. Did they try and tell Americans that our culture is wrong, messed-up, or should change? Did they infer that we're crazy and gun-toting... and people are unable to see who is the bad guy? Arrogance.

The only thing I offered is that citizenry giving up weapons makes it much easier for a corrupt authoritarian government to take absolute control. True. In fact, I said disarming citizenry is the first thing that an authoritarian government does. True. Your belief that you government can never be corrupted of become authoritarian... False. Is it now? You be the judge. This is not arrogance. This is fact. And you are open to decide for your own country... but not for mine... unless you want to become an American citizen?

Take it from someone who has military background, police background, and research background (RAND), you don't know the facts... and your arguments show that in spades.

And as for what this thread was supposed to be -- YOU GOT THAT WRONG TOO! This wasn't about cultures of ways-of-life, it was about who makes the best... (fill in the blank). Maybe you should R-E-A-D IT? But no one -- even mods -- seem to care about that?

No, this thread became an attack on the US because it's "cool" to bag on us... because its easier to make the US the bad guys than look at your own countries with understanding and shame (like many of our patriots do even our own nation). Passive-aggressive twits who know nothing about issues come out of the woodwork when they have keyboard courage, self-righteousness, and opinions without hard data.

It should be closed.
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 03:17 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 03:20
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Quote: "HA! Everytime I leave, "you people" are proving my points. It's funny. "You guys" (and you know who you are) are spouting off about issues you know nothing about -- except what you've been told is correct -- and your arrogance and childishness is truly repugnant."


"Some people" just can't take a warning. Slapped.

As I said before, if you can't play nice, don't post at all. Nobody here is attacking the US in any way. You are the only one here being unpleasant.

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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 03:32
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BigAdd, Have you read the responses? How can you say that?
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Thraxas
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 03:51
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Quote: "Regular users can see that!? I always thought it's just for the mods hehehe."


Yes but they can't see the beady eyes on watched threads

A man will one day wear a tophat in glasgow on a sunny day juggeling grapes while humming the jurrasic park theme tune.
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 04:03 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 04:33
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Quote: "BigAdd, Have you read the responses? How can you say that? "


As I've detailed in my email, people's responses to your rude behaviour are irrelevant. You are the only one flaming here, and the responses you get because of that are all on you.

Lets try get this thread back on track.

Quote: "Should both of our nations go back to horse and buggy to prevent the hundreds of thousands of vehicle-related fatalities and mansluaghters each and every year? Or, should we ban alcohol (again) to cut back on the number of drunk driving fatalities? Can we please work together to ban cigarettes in both in America and the UK? I don't smoke. And I don't at all like the idea that hundreds of thousands of people that don't, die of second-hand smoke each and every year for a right granted to others. "


That's the problem though, which is what the whole "guns or no guns" argument boils down to is the minority ruining it for the majority.

The way people binge drink in the UK, it wouldn't be very surprising if the government decided to tax or limit the sale of alcohol even more.
Simply because the minority of people who use alcohol in an inappropriate way ruin it for the majority who use alcohol responsibly.
Its the same for guns, nicotine and fast foods. The problem is you can't trust the minority of idiots in any country to use things responsibly or in moderation. Which is why laws have to be passed, smoking bans, speed limits or whatever.


Its up to the government of each country to determine the level of access people have to these "dangerous materials". In an ideal world everyone would be free to do as they please and use what they please. But we just can't have that.
If the problem is the minority, and if a government can control that minority then fine. If they can't, then they have to control the substance.

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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 04:38
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So, you cut-and-paste a line from my email without any context?
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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 04:42
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Quote: "The entire world view of America is solely based on the South"

Apparently you have never been to the south, I happen to be from the south and it really isn't how you describe it. sure there are alot of fat people, but really isn't like everyone lives in a singlewide trailer way back in the woods, interbreeds and owns a shotgun.

The northerner's view on the south is so stereotyped, as you said before, crispex, you have never been to the south and therefore, you only get your evidence from TV and what you hear from other people, i have news for you, most people i know, some who are from the north or have been to the north, would rather be down here than be up there, the crime rate is actually much lower, it is rare that someone is murdered or robbed, especially in a small community, if any of that happens then it is echoed throughout the community for at least a month or two until something else happens, there it is an everyday thing.

Really, you should experience before you judge.

Quote: "I would be interested to know if they agree with the statements made above"

Slow Programmer, No We do not.

Quote: "Guns dont kill people, the person who pulls the trigger does. Kitchen ware can do as much damamge as a lock knife while a brick or nearest to hand object can still kill you. Fear of certain objects is overated."


Guns just make it easier to kill, no matter if guns are illegal are not, criminals are going to get them, and they will use them, guns are very simple mechanisms, i believe with the money and proper tool, i could make one myself.

My Current Project: Unbenounced to you, Puny Human!
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 04:43 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 04:44
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Quote: "So, you cut-and-paste a line from my email without any context? "


I've not posted any of your email here.

For someone who is quickly going back and removing his posts, you are awfully sure of yourself. Hiding something perhaps?

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 05:32
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Quote: "I think most people that carry a gun for self-defense are much more likely to get themselves killed than they are to defend themselves."

That would be largely due to their inexperience with a firearm, or the retention of said firearm. That is on them....though I think the testing (live-fire and practical) should be harder, in order to receive a CCW (Concealed permit) or even an open-carry.

Quote: "1) Self-defense
Dubious to start with, there's absolutely no evidence to show that people who carry guns are safer. In fact, it's usually the opposite."

Please show me where you've read this at? No...really...

-Keith

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crispex
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 05:35
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Quote: "Have you ever actually been to any southern state? I can't help but doubt it. I've lived in southern states my entire life, and taken numerous trips to northern states, and the only difference I can come up with from my experiences between the two, are:

Southern States' communities are closer to each other and they have Southern accents.

Northern States' communities keep to themselves and the ones close to them and have Northern accents.

Neither region is bad or should be viewed badly. "


Well, in all honesty, I visited Mississippi because I had a family member getting married down there. It's very...odd to me as opposed to the North. You're right, most Northerners generally keep to themselves. I understand how you have close-knit communities, nothing wrong with that. I just still don't like a lot of Southern ideas. The idea of still being casually racist and flying the Confederate flag with pride still bothers me. I know not ALL Southerners follow this ideology, but a greater part of them do. I consider myself generally open-minded and give others a chance to explain things to me. Perhaps in some more modernized communities it's changed a lot, but many Southern communities are still the way they were back in the 1800's, with a few modern luxuries like cars.

Anyway, guns. Guns are good for defense, bad for irrationality and crime. Guns DO make crime easier, but so do cars, ski masks, body armor, etc. So why not ban them to? My thing is this, just like with drugs, trying to outlaw guns is pointless due to the fact that people don't follow laws. Sure, some do, but a lot do not. I don't see why this is a "debate", if you can call it that. Guns can cause violent crime to occur, but knives, sticks, etc. can be used to rob and kill as well. This is an issue based on emotion, really. If you've ever had a gun pointed at you, gun enthusiast or not, generally you learn to hate guns. Guns have long been a staple of American culture, much like anything else for other countries. I don't see why the rest of the world is so concerned over what each other is doing. Mind your own business, this means you too America!

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 08:11 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 08:12
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First I'd like to say that I'm impressed that this thread has remained civil (with a few exceptions), and that if it should turn into a flamewar, the mods should ban or slap those that contribute to it and remove their posts rather than lock the thread, because it's not fair to everyone else who is staying civil to stop the discussion.

Quote: "Well, in all honesty, I visited Mississippi because I had a family member getting married down there. It's very...odd to me as opposed to the North. You're right, most Northerners generally keep to themselves. I understand how you have close-knit communities, nothing wrong with that. I just still don't like a lot of Southern ideas. The idea of still being casually racist and flying the Confederate flag with pride still bothers me. I know not ALL Southerners follow this ideology, but a greater part of them do. I consider myself generally open-minded and give others a chance to explain things to me. Perhaps in some more modernized communities it's changed a lot, but many Southern communities are still the way they were back in the 1800's, with a few modern luxuries like cars."

Well, that's the problem, that stereotype is largely untrue. It also depends on where you go in the South, of course. I've lived near Dallas, Texas most of my life, and it would be very insulting to anyone around there to fly a Confederate flag or make a truly racist remark (of course, there are jokes related to race, including those directed at Caucasian, but that's much different that intentional and sincere racism). Of course, if you were to go to the backwoods of somewhere like Alabama or Mississippi, you would be much more likely to find people that fit the stereotype, but in almost all major cities that I've been to or lived in, where the majority of the population lives, the stereotype is far from the truth.


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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 08:18
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Wait a second BigAdd, you said you were going to post our whole email conversation to the board... and you didn't. Now you make my deleting posts that you said were negative look bad.

Well, I then plan on posting our email conversation here... as you said you were going to do.
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CapnBuzz
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BigAdd, post our conversation as you said you were going to. I have nothing whatsoever to hide.
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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 08:51
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Quote: " it's probably more sensible to make guns impossible to procure without a license (as in the UK)"


That's your problem. You CAN'T make guns "impossible" to procure. So gangs don't carry guns in the UK? I'd say that's impossibly untrue. There will always be a black market for firearms.

Quote: "of course, there are jokes related to race, including those directed at Caucasian, but that's much different that intentional and sincere racism"


I don't understand this sentence. Racism directed at white people isn't intentional or sincere... and somewhat more "ok" than racism towards non-whites? Or maybe I read that wrong?


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 09:32
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Quote: "No, this thread became an attack on the US because it's "cool" to bag on us... because its easier to make the US the bad guys than look at your own countries with understanding and shame (like many of our patriots do even our own nation). Passive-aggressive twits who know nothing about issues come out of the woodwork when they have keyboard courage, self-righteousness, and opinions without hard data."


Nobody's attacking the US, people are debating gun law and crime. If they were, don't you think the US mods would be saying, "back off"? But they're not, they're engaging with the debate. There's a big difference. Europeans here don't agree that a gun culture is a good thing, that doesn't mean they're attacking the US for it, it just means they're voicing their views and why they have their views. If you don't like freedom of expression and people debating over topics then there's a problem with you, not everybody else.

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crispex
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 12:18
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Quote: "No, this thread became an attack on the US because it's "cool" to bag on us... because its easier to make the US the bad guys than look at your own countries with understanding and shame (like many of our patriots do even our own nation). Passive-aggressive twits who know nothing about issues come out of the woodwork when they have keyboard courage, self-righteousness, and opinions without hard data.

It should be closed."


Why should it be closed? What's happening is you're losing control of a debate, so you start throwing down petty insults and you start thinking everyone is against you. The conversation has remained civil, as stated, for the most part. The other part consists of you getting angry about nothing. This is the irrationality that kills people. Instead of being open-minded and respecting others opinions, you instead assume we're all attacking America. Believe it or not, you accusing other countries of attacking America is disrespectful in its own right.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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Ermes
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 13:13 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 13:22
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well, i don't like people talking about to be "americans".

US has about 400 years of history and Europe about 10000....

Americans are for first afro, english, french, italian, irish, russians, and so on....

i'm courious, when immigrants start to be "americans" and not, for example, italians immigrants?

Do you remember the case of "Sacco e Vanzetti"?? google it and tell me something.


Then, we are talking about a country after WWII used Italy as its colony, with military bases and commercial contracts, here we are still forced to purchase coal from US... and what about € vs $ ? For international excange we can't use €. Why?

How i can like Us.....


Ciao facce da sedere!
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Doomster
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 14:11 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 14:26
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Quote: "people like my grandfather and an uncle trap and hunt animals for their living"

Yes, and that's understandable, but why would a simple hunter need an automatic weapon, a shotgun, or any other 'bigger' weapon?

I'm not really for guns and wouldn't ever own one myself, but I do understand why someone would want to call a pistol their own, since we all know how many bad guys are out there, so there's always one last chance to defend himself if nothing else helps (pepper spray, baseball bats, or anything else that can be used for defense, but not to kill).

But what I don't understand is, why anyone needs automatic weapons, shotguns, etc. - they're not meant for selfdefense, these weapons are solely made for killing, and I also don't understand why anyone should be allowed to run around with a gun in a public place, where kids are around as well - it doesn't make it any more secure, but makes it uncontrolable, since you don't know whose carrying a gun right now, and if there's any misunderstanding, or someone with a gun is drunk and is having a fight, he could just get his gun out and the situation escalates.

I'm also all for checking the legal gun owners (although that'd require quite a bit of people to check every owner) to see, whether they store their weapons the right way, or not, since that's also a big problem - in Germany, on march 2009, a 17 year old killed 15 people, including himself, just because his father didn't store his gun in the gun locker, which is mandatory from the german law.

If his father wouldn't have owned any weapon, or would've stored it in the gun locker, this disaster probably wouldn't have taken place - he'd still have the mental problems and would think of it, but he'd more likely get help from his family and psychologist, since guns, at least in Germany, aren't that easy to get hold of, and maybe then someone from the police, or his parents, would've noticed that.

Also, I don't understand why anyone would want to have a weapon under his pillow or wherever else - we all know that kids are pretty impulsive during the puberty, and what if he's having trouble in school with some guys and wants to show them, that he can "defend" himself and pulls out the weapon? It may be just to creep them out, but what if anyone of them pulls out a weapon, knife, or whatever else and the situation's going beyond his control?

And it's not only a problem for teenagers and adults, but childs have access to guns as well (heck, some parents even take their children along to the shooting range):

Boy, 8, accidentally kills self at gun show
A child shoots a child

And this aren't the only cases where something like this happenend - why would any father, or mother, still defend the gun law?

Quote: "So gangs don't carry guns in the UK?"

Judging from the news, UK's bigger problem are knifes, haven't heard of that many gun shootings, to be honest.

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Van B
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 14:52 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 14:53
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Quote: "in march 2009 a 17 year old killed 15 people, including himself, just because his father didn't store his gun in the gun locker, which is mandatory from the german law."


A 17 year old who kills 15 people because his dad didn't hide his gun, is a 17 year old murderer with no excuse. If the gun was locked away, he would have found something else, or done something else. It's not like it was 1 person, say a friend and him target shooting - the kid clearly had mental issues. Any parent who has a child with mental issues should not keep a gun in their house (nor be allowed to), let alone outside a secure storage. Who can really justify owning a firearm in a country like Germany anyway, with a miniscule crime rate compared to the US.

The way I see it, there are always heated debates with gun law in the US, the rest of the planet can't see the justification. If legitimate gun enthusiasts are so enthusiastic, then surely they would adhere to strict gun control laws, instead of seeing it as a right just because it was 'necessary' 200 years ago. 200 years ago I would probably have manditory archery lessons every day, and be allowed to carry a sword, and trot down the street on a horse to the local opium den. 200 years ago, I'd probably be dead by this age. For all the homefront defense idealogy we hear in discussions like this, we never see proof of any positive outcomes.

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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 15:17 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 15:27
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Quote: "If his father wouldn't have owned any weapon, or would've stored it in the gun locker, this disaster probably wouldn't have taken place "


Or the boy would have just taken a knife from the kitchen, or a screwdriver from the garage, or taken the father's keys and used the car for a homicidal joyride? Can't say. The problem I see with the right to bear arms controversy is that those opposed to the right typically want to blame the gun itself when it falls into the wrong hands, and not the person in control of it.

It's the same thing as saying "it was the car's fault the homicidal maniac stepped into it and drove it through a shopping mall. Cars are everywhere, and legal to own and operate with a license. We should ban them all to prevent this from happening again, even though not everyone uses them with this intent." Or alternatively; "it's the car's fault my 16-year-old daughter was screwing around with her friends and rammed into an oncoming car killing the family inside."


Quote: "why would any father, or mother, still defend the gun law?"


I will answer your question with more links to enforce my previous argument;

Boy, 7, Killed In Golf Club Accident
Boy stabs himself in the head while playing serial killer
Boy, 13, stabs himself in the stomach in front of classmates 'after being dumped by girlfriend'
Thirteen-year-old kills himself after being told he could not play the Wii
6-Year-Old Commits Suicide, Medical Examiner Says


While guns do provide another method for people to kill each other and themselves, take them out of the equation, and we'll only turn to something else.

Kravenwolf

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Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 15:21
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Oh, and I'm a little envious of the sheer number of things that Americans put Cinnamon in. We have hardly any in comparison.

Hmm, just noticed things are a little more heated since I was last here... meh...

...and HD TVs when it was several years before (for some reason) we started moving on the idea...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 15:29 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 15:31
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Quote: "I would probably have manditory archery lessons every day, and be allowed to carry a sword, and trot down the street on a horse to the local opium den."


Hehe (it's funny when someone calls police at the end):




Kravenwolf

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 15:46
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Shotguns are used to hunt foul (you try shooting a bird out of the sky with a single bullet), as well as for excellent home defense. They do not penetrate nearly as much as a jacketed round does...you do have to consider your neighbors as well. Don't want an errant round going through your walls and into their house.

As VanB said; anyone with mental issues like that will find another method of killing, such as driving a vehicle into a crowd....should we ban cars too? You would argue that they're not made to kill; but I'd like to direct you to the statistics of how many people have been killed by a vehicle. Dead is dead; how you get to that state is largely irrelevant. If someone wants to kill you/get to you, they will...unless they're stopped.

Numerous cases where someone comes on with a gun, shooting unarmed people; someone carrying a legal weapon puts a stop to it. A lot of these generalizations and statistics put forth here are questionable.

-Keith

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Deathcow
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 15:48 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 15:49
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I have spent a good bit of time in the US and I would say it is a nice place to live. People are nice and friendly, but not always and I am sure it is like this in every country. The one thing I always found I didn’t like was: the weather and the media. Guns were never really some to worry about. The weather was weird. What is freezing rain? Is it snow or is it rain I just can’t work it out. Also the media is crazy and what is a big deal in the US hardly makes the news in the UK. Once they start with a story they investigate everything to do with the story and that would be a car crash with a Bus. I remember this story and it lasted for a week.

The part of the UK that I come from, the police are armed and they do use them. That said it is still uncommon for someone to worry about being killed with a gun. I guess it is not that we can or cannot get access to guns, but the attitude towards them that is the key. I think Americans constitution has a big part to play in the attitudes towards guns in the US.

DC

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 15:57
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Quote: "I don't understand this sentence. Racism directed at white people isn't intentional or sincere... and somewhat more "ok" than racism towards non-whites? Or maybe I read that wrong?
"

Haha, no, that's not what I meant at all. I meant there are jokes (like this site: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/, or this one http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com/ or this one http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/successful-negro) about all races that make fun of the stereotypes but are generally not meant to be actually racist.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 16:34
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Quote: "http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/"


Who on earth would be stupid and irresponsible enough to let a child fire any kind of weapon, let alone an automatic?

Quote: "Or the boy would have just taken a knife from the kitchen, or a screwdriver from the garage, or taken the father's keys and used the car for a homicidal joyride?"


If it was a knife or a screwdriver, chances are he would have been overpowered soon enough (possibly even by his first potential victim) whereas since he had a gun all of his victims were practically helpless.



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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 16:44
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Quote: "If it was a knife or a screwdriver, chances are he would have been overpowered soon enough (possibly even by his first potential victim) whereas since he had a gun all of his victims were practically helpless."


You mean like the guy in Canada was "overpowered"...while he had the time to not only stab/kill the guy, but cut off his head and hold it over his? Seems to me like everyone there watched it happen, and did little to stop it.

-Keith

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 16:47
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Quote: "You mean like the guy in Canada was "overpowered"...while he had the time to not only stab/kill the guy, but cut off his head and hold it over his?"


I doubt this is a common occurrence. And besides, one life does not equal fifteen.



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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 16:51
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It's an example and a valid one. You have no idea how common or uncommon it is, do you?

-Keith

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 16:54
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Quote: "It's an example and a valid one. You have no idea how common or uncommon it is, do you?"


I just find it very unlikely that in most cases the onlookers are just going to do nothing, that sounds insane to me.



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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 16:55
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It's an insane world at times; then there's people's sense of self preservation.

-Keith

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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 17:00 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 17:16
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Quote: "And besides, one life does not equal fifteen."


You'd have to debate that one with that one persons' family and loved ones. Anyway, I still stand on my previous argument. Forget about the knife and the screwdriver if you wish. I prefer the comparison to vehicles anyway because in this respect they can easily be exchanged. What if he got in his father's car and drove down the sidewalk in a busy city on a homicidal joyride? He'd have ran out of bullets much faster than he would have gas, or before the police could 'overpower him' by shooting out the tires to stop the car. So again I say, why not get rid of every vehicle in America if they carry the potentional to cause more casulaties than a screwdriver or a knife when put in the hands of an unstable body?


EDIT:
However, I do find it interesting that the concern for the right to carry and deaths attributed to this by (in most examples) unrelated firearm incidents (ie I have yet to hear an unfortunate gun mishap mention anything about a concealed carrier), somehow allow the millions and millions of alcohol-related deaths to be ignored. The same can be said about the hundreds of thousands of non-smokers that die every year because others with to use their right to indulge. But I'm sure nobody here drinks or smokes, right?

Kravenwolf

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 17:09
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Quote: "What if he got in his father's car and drove down the sidewalk in a busy city on a homicidal joyride? "


So you're saying removing something essential to everyday life (cars) is the same thing as removing lethal weapons designed to kill or maim? I don't get it.



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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 17:15 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 17:18
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Quote: "So you're saying removing something essential to everyday life (cars) is the same thing as removing lethal weapons designed to kill or maim?"


Nope. I'm saying that one object in our society; a vehicle that carries a purpose (transportation), and another object; a firearm that carries a purpose (self-defense) can both be used outside of those intentions to endanger the lives of others. So, we either get rid of both to eliminate the possibilty they might be used incorrectly, or accept the reality that not everyone is going to follow the rules.

Quote: "I don't get it."


Kid takes a gun from his dad and uses it incorrectly. People are killed. Kid takes a vehicle from his dad and uses it incorrectly. People are killed.

Kravenwolf

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Mar 2011 17:18
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Nope; he's simply saying it's a means to an end. The inanimate object doesn't kill someone; the crazy person behind the trigger/wheel/cockpit/detonator/etc does. The rest is just semantics.

-Keith

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