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Geek Culture / Gaming Console Development Progress Thread

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 03:04 Edited at: 11th Jul 2011 01:36
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Moderators, please feel free to lock this thread!


The main thread is now here.






Yep, so here it is! This is where i will post all progress of hardware, software, and concepts of the Basic Binary Box gaming console.

So, lets get started! Here are my current design ideas: A lot of you have suggested using normal PC hardware and booting the system with Windows. This method will NOT be used in the gaming console. Instead, I will write my own operating system with a simplified micro-kernel. When i need custom chips, I will be using an FPGA. This will allow for full customization of the chip if and when i need.

The gaming console will likely come in a kit form if I put it into production. For the case i have decided I will use frosted glass with blue LED's underneath. That my friends, will look awesome. In the potential kit form it will come with plexi glass however.

My media will be two, perhaps three SD card slots, and the basic OS the console will boot up to will allow you to choose from one of the card slots. I still need to figure out if the games will run on top of the OS, or the OS will shut down and the game will gain full access of the console.

Today i also made a basic pong like program that has no scoring features in a programming language concept of mine. Unfortunately it has nothing to run on as of now and has some errors that you may notice


You see it is mainly influenced by BDPro, but has some features of Phrogram (ie 'while true'), and some features from C++ (ie the function at the bottom of the code.)


So tell me what ya think of it all!



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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 03:13 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 03:15
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if your going to use { and } to define blocks in functions you should be consistent and use it whenever using a block of code ie:

etc.

AS well as the use of pointers will be REQUIRED as the programmer will have such low level access.

If you want a reliable system for homebrewers then you should probably go for a RTOS with system calls, e.g. the compiled program will regularly PAUSE being run to jump to another memory address to execute code there as required by a determined schedule. I'd recommend prioritized scheduling rather than round-robin scheduling as that way you could focus on the game being run rather than silly system calls and allocate the actual game more resources and cpu time.

Also, you'll want to use MMCs rather than SD cards as SD i believe is licensed.

Edit: Also, I will be following this project thoroughly as I'm doing something similar for my 2nd year engineering project, so hopefully I may learn something.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 03:24 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 03:24
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Those are all go points!
Quote: "I will be following this project thoroughly"
Thanks! I take that as a complement Now dont expect me to do things in a way that would help you though they likely will I have to admit, although i have pretty much the complete concept of electronic design down, i have never actually designed an electric circuit that was printed and tested. So this will most certainly be an adventure! But a fun one none the less!

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 03:29 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 03:33
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So here is a concept of the gaming console i just modeled. It doesnt look special because i want to keep it real and unless i have the patience and skill required to precisely cut and glue small and precise plexi-glass pieces together, i wont have any case but one that is very minimalist. Nothing on the the top, so i thought id give you a bottom view to see the rubber feet i modeled in On the front you see two large slots, for the controllers, and two small ones for the MMC cards i will be using as opposed to SD cards




Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.

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flashing snall
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 03:57
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Did you consider cooling?

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 04:01 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 04:01
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That is something i thought about indeed! It just doesnt look all that great or realistic when i do it in Wings3D...

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 05:01
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Haha just found a totally awesome, high quality PCB design tool from pad2pad.com. See i literally will post everything i do here

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 06:35
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Two things:

- I'm going to lock the other thread because you shouldn't have two threads on the exact same topic.
- Please don't double post to bump your thread.

Thanks


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 07:01
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Sorry about that Yeh people were wanting me to post progress on that thread but i didnt want to so im fine with that being locked. And i will have to resist the temptation to double post

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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TechLord
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 07:01 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 07:02
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TechLord's Power-Tower Entertainment System


Power Tower Specs


Power Socket Specs


The Power-Tower Entertainment System is just too awesome to die in a locked thread - LOL. Did I mentioned it comes with the GLUCOSE Game Creator as part of its OEM Applications?

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 07:03
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Wait so is this Power Tower thing real? I do suppose you should start your own thread on the Power Tower as this thread is about my console...

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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TheComet
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 14:39
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I think you should use this programming language : http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 16:23 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 17:30
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Quote: "Today i also made a basic pong like program that has no scoring features in a programming language concept of mine"


Getting a bit ahead of yourself here, at this embryonic stage the style of the programming language is irrelevant. First you need some idea what the hardware is (cpu / memory & custom chips) then build it.

If you're writing the OS yourself, then there's no avoiding writing the kernel in assembly. If that's not your background, then best pick something that's either 16/32bit or fully 32bit.

My gut feeling is you should build an emulator first from open source projects (CPU primarily) in order to get some type of kernel running, even if it's not 'exactly' the same hardware wise it's viable pre-step.


Hmm, I wonder what's coming in 2011?
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Van B
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 17:15
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What Kevin said.

My fear is that this will just end in flames, because all it will take is one realist. I think you need to put away the conceptual stuff, psuedo code, modelling apps, and figure out things on a hardware level. Your looking at psuefo code for a game, written in a language that does not exist, that runs on a processor that does not exist on hardware that does not exist. Worry about the difficult part first, which is the main processor, and stop trying to do everything all at once. Be realistic, be a realist, or be a laughing stock.

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AutoBot
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 17:54
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I think some insight on other gaming consoles will help as well. The Playstation 3, for example, has a unique architecture. It has 7 cpus, 6 of which are synergistic processing units (SPUs), and one main processor. These connect to the ram and GPU. I think that if your going for a unique hardware scheme, your going to have a tough time finding something like a mainboard to connect it all together. I'm mentioning this because quite a few consoles have some hardware differences from PCs in one way or another.

What I would recommend is putting it together like a PC (one processor, normal mobo, ram, psu, sata drives, PCIe slots, etc). You'd probably make your own custom case, though, to make it more original.

After that I'd go ahead with an operating system, but I'd try not to burden myself too much. Look for some sort of Linux distro to help with things like the kernel, bootloader, etc. You'll probably want to program some custom elements after that, such as a custom GUI, support for the game format you want, and anything else you want to make the console unique. I know that the PS3 uses a linux distro for the lower level things, then they programmed the higher level stuff the way they wanted to.

Can't wait to see how far you go, this looks like a cool project.


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TheComet
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 17:55
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I agree with both above. I am a realist, but I'm holding myself back right now for both our sakes. Please just get the hardware together first before going on for software.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 18:19
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@ Dark basic dude79
Posted: 22nd Mar 2011 21:06
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@MrValentine So i am taking you up on your offer for a free website I just need a name for my console and i will have the website sport a similar name. I really do appreciate you offering to host a free website for me!


following on from your other locked thread, sure, all I request is mention of the hosting on the page

let me know when your ready, I will keep updated on this thread... keep me posted ^^

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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 19:51
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Quote: "If you're writing the OS yourself, then there's no avoiding writing the kernel in assembly"

If he designs his on instruction set architecture then this is true, however, if he use's and already existing one or if he even writes his own compiler (not likely tbh, VERY comlicated) he could program it in c++.

Also, other things to consider:
• Display connections. What interface are you most likely to use? VGA? Analogue? DVI? HDMI? etc.
• Audio Drivers/codecs. What format is the audio going to be? a custom format? MP3? OGG? etc. you'll need to look these up and find compatible chips.
• Harvard or von neumann architecture? (anything else would be too complex)
• Basic System Requirements to fulfil your task. How much RAM will be needed? CPU Clock? Bus width (try for 16/32 bit)? I/O ports? etc.
• Software structure diagrams!!! YOU NEED THESE!!! They make everything easier.
• Controller interface! USB? or a custom interface?

Most of these things need to be decided before you even START the hardware design, and are what I would say are currently the most pressing issues for your console.

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Omnomer
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 20:10
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If you need some hard to find but not custom peices I would recomend looking at Cyberguys. They have some very useful and interesting/ usful items such as internal coolers and ribon wire and even video cards.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 23:24 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2011 23:27
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Ok, for the ones who posted about me doing software stuff early: Please you you common sense. Im still in the concept phase of things, and i dont think there is ANY issue whatsoever with me doing software stuff. It's all concept, im doing software stuff at the same time because im focusing on getting the hardware and software to integrate. Remember, i am using an FPGA as my CPU, so i will need to have an idea of the assembly code used for it. Also, though the language is not too relevant to the assembly, just because i come up with an idea doesnt mean i cant experiment with it. Come on guys.

@Kevin Yes i do pan to make an emulator of some sort.

@Van B
Quote: "My fear is that this will just end in flames, because all it will take is one realist. I think you need to put away the conceptual stuff, psuedo code, modelling apps, and figure out things on a hardware level. Your looking at psuefo code for a game, written in a language that does not exist, that runs on a processor that does not exist on hardware that does not exist. Worry about the difficult part first, which is the main processor, and stop trying to do everything all at once. Be realistic, be a realist, or be a laughing stock"
First of all, im taking this at my own pace. I promise you if i were to work on one thing for too long, i would lose interest and the project would go down in flames, just for the exact opposite reason you think it will. My exact point is to use a language that doesnt exist! I thought i made that rather clear. Now i will assure you, im doing a lot more research on the processor than anything else. Then comes circuitry, then the other concept stuff. The reason i posted and made a model is because people on the other post wanted to see one. The reason i put in the code concept is because i wanted to show you guys maybe what features the console might have.

@The Comet You have a great point, sounds like i will be using brainf*** for my primary language! My only concern is that my brain would get all f***ed up... (hope that didnt violate the AUP) Down to your other post, here is a time line in a way:
Now: Hardware and software concepts
Soon: Emulator (perhaps)
Later: Hardware
Final: Software

@MrValentine Thanks, i will try to get a name ASAP as i dont want you to feel obligated to check back here too much I would be more than happy to mention you as being the hoster

@Planetary Funk Those things have all been considered by me, i know like half those already, just have to do some quick research on the others...

@Omnomer Ill check out that place if i find a need for such

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 23:28
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Keep my post in mind, though, especially for the OS. You really don't want to hand code everything, just the parts that you want to be specific. I bet you could install some form of linux distro easily enough on a console with PC-like structure.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2011 23:44
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Ah yes, didnt see you post! I will keep that kind of thing in mind, i almost feel as if i literally want to do EVERYTHING by hand, but something else says i should use things like you mentioned

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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OutdoorGamer
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You know, this is interesting. If you can get just something made up a few things. I will be happy to mention this on my site. check it out: http://gamers-feed.com

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 24th Mar 2011 03:23
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That would be cool!

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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Melancholic
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Posted: 24th Mar 2011 20:19
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Just had an idea for you, why start from scratch?. The way i see it your going to have to learn alot and do alot of work, and even then you are unikely to get developers onboard. So heres my idea, use an ARM based system running android, maybe a customized version of android to make it more user friendly for a tv. This way there is already a large veriety of games, and tools such as Unity for developers. It could be used for web access aswell.


I can count to banana...
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 25th Mar 2011 00:56
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Yes good idea but as i have mentioned very many times my point is to start from scratch. I dont really care if i dont have any developers or not. Also, i only need to do a lot of work, i have already learned a lot!

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 25th Mar 2011 21:11
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yo why are you using mmc cards insttead of SD?

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 25th Mar 2011 22:14
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PlanetaryFunk said that SD was licensed and recommended MMC. I will research that some more

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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 25th Mar 2011 23:41
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Also, from looking this up myself, information on MMCs is A LOT easier to find.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 26th Mar 2011 04:33
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That makes much sense indeed!

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Kamakazi
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 10:21
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Hmmm...

I don't see why someone couldn't use a modern CPU with nVIDIA capabilities (to take advantage of the PhysX capabilities of DBPRO and DGK) and just reprogram a BIOS chip. Just a thought.
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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 14:28
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Just a thought, this may be very complex but java applications run on a Java virtual machine, if you make a system that runs java applications that ISN'T a virtual machine I think it would be very interesting, give you a wealth of developed software as well as won't stop you from starting from scratch as you'd need to design a CPU capable of running the bytecode commands.

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MrValentine
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had a look over some old snes games, umm forgot which one it was now lol... think a star fox game was it... the first 3D snes game ever... it used perspective pixelation to simulate 3D environments, sojust cus were gonna use a 2D environment doesnt mean were limited to 2D ^^ hell look at the DOOM games and wolfenstein, they werent 3D they were just rendered to seem 3D ^^

Food for Thought

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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 15:36
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@MrValentine:
It wasn't starfox, but it was a space shooter.

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MrValentine
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starfox was the original name it was renamed to starwing in the rest of the world for legal reasons,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fox_%28video_game%29

have a butchers lol

yes it was the first 3d game

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TechLord
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 16:31
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Quote: "Wait so is this Power Tower thing real? I do suppose you should start your own thread on the Power Tower as this thread is about my console...
"


Sorry about that. For those interested, here's a link to the Power-Tower Entertainment System which I'm now building as a prototype and replacement for my current Dev PC. The prototype will include 2 additional Power Sockets with a wireless Keyboard/Mouse so I can access Power-Tower from my bedroom, living room, and study.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 17:01
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Dark basic dude79

have you seen my pc case? google SILVERSTONETECH RVO1 v2 black

perhaps you can get some design ideas for the console from it ^^ based on that stealth fighter jet

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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 17:10
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@MrValentine
Ah, you're right, why do they rename games in different countries? It just confuses me...

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MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Mar 2011 17:29 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 19:40
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Quote: "
LEGAL REASONS
"


^^ your answer

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Libervurto
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This seems very interesting. Reminds me of the Sinclair Spectrum for some reason.
Will one be able to develop on the system itself or will development require a pc?
What kind of controller will the system use? Will existing game controllers be compatible? If so what type(s)?
What media will games and files be stored on?


Everything worthwhile requires effort.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Mar 2011 19:15
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@Techlord That is ok!

@MrValentine I Googled it and didnt really see anything but a video of an in progress computer case build and it did look pretty sweet!

@OBese87 These are all great questions you ask. On the controller i might include a keyboard jack and include some special program so you could program the console with a keyboard, but most likely it will all be on the computer. Development on the console would be nice because it would be easy to test games without an emulator, which would be pretty complex to make.

I plan to use my own controller. It would use kinda the same technique to communicate with the console as the NES did. The NES would send out a 'latch' signal around 60 times a second, and every time it would the controller would essentially look at the state of all the buttons and put it into its own memory. After the latch signal there were eight consecutive pulses, and for each one of those the state of the button corresponding to that signal would be sent back. So on the first signal the state of the first button would be sent out etc. Now i still have to come up with some unique controller design...

Im still thinking about the storage media... I have definitely ruled out cartridges, now CD's would be cheap to produce but can get scratched easy, and load really slow and compared to MMC's dont hold much. On the other hand MMC's do hold quite a bit and load very quickly, but im not sure about the production costs...



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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 29th Mar 2011 19:21 Edited at: 29th Mar 2011 19:25
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With an MMC you can just plug it into the pc via an adapter.

If you're confident with your program you can implement a simple DRM system and completely change how they're formatted so you can create rather secure systems.

EDIT:
Also MMCs are cheap due to being manufactured by hundreds of (mainly chinese) companies.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 29th Mar 2011 20:13
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actually, you dont need an emulator... how do you think they test x360 and ps3 ... (screw wii lol) games? they have an external debug box that attached to a standard console and pc, theyve been doing this since... forever or ps1 at least... you could use a usb link to transmit the runtime game to the console and load it live and have a debug screen on your pc at the same time

try googling for developer consoles should bring up some pics ^^

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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 10:04
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I think you might be bitting off more then you can chew. What i would say is trying to get a little peice accomplished. I think that a big pitfall of yours is going to be the programming (based on other threads) Hardware in theory seems to be something your into but theory is alot different then actual practice. I know i posted in your other thread that you should go for it.... and you should. Just realize the amount of work that you have involved. I would start from a pre-existing chipset with pre-existing boards and pre-existing itegrated circuts. You wont have anyone disapointed if you can even pull that off. I dont know anything about you personally nor do i have a clue other then what youve posted as to your aptitude in this feild but i can say on top of everything the os will be a chore by itself. Consider this: Dreamcast was a very nice console during its day, and it was built mainly on pre existing tech. (for the most part) The os is actually a windows ce? offshoot? Even for the learning exp you would be best to tackle little goals until your sure you can handle the entire project. You may be way ahead of me but IDK... take it in portions... im sure you would blow everyone away with an emulation of a system (which takes an incredible degree of skill in its self). Dont give up but dont create goals that are impossible to reach.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 17:39
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@PlanetaryFunk I will look into DRM's...

@MrValentine I see, i could possibly do that...

@PrimalBeans Now with enough faith anything can be done right? Even those seemingly impossible things? I certainly believe so.
Quote: "pre-existing itegrated circuts"
As i have stated I will be! Just FPGA's

blown up REALLY big is
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MrValentine
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 18:04
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something which a lot of people forget...

the impossible is whats kept us alive today,

hence the saying, nothing is impossible.

(obviously some things have limitations... space travel lol the only thing holding that back is resources the technology exists, however the resources are not there... that said, put it this way, somene a long time ago invented something he called windows... one man, one machine and one piece of software, the same goes for the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) as far as my memory serves me right)

with all that said, GAME ON!

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Interplanetary Funk
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 19:27
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Nothing is impossible, but merely extremely improbable.

Get on my level
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 19:36
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Yup you are both correct indeed! Haha so the NES was made by one person? All the more inspiring!

blown up REALLY big is
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MrValentine
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 19:44
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I am not 100% sure on the NES being the particular console ut it hits nearer to my memory than anything else... but yes a console back in the 80's was developed and designed by one man and then later setup a company and eventually had it on a production line... however lets remember were in HD now so 8bit graphics wont cut a production line haha, however... it could prove other uses than just gaming... and with further advancements you could begin to couple other common technologies to it, i.e. Ethernet connectivity ^^ and stick a hard drive in it ^^ (can get a cheap ISE hdd lol like 10GB or something for next to nothing)

I always look for other uses of anything I come across.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 20:09
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With its low computational power i think it will just come in a kit form, and again, only if i sell it...

blown up REALLY big is
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